Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I also think the Gammas sitting around the level of Goku and Vegeta in their SSB forms is fitting because it shows Gohan's growth as part of the movie's narrative.

Both anime and manga made a point of stating and showing how Ultimate Gohan was attempting to reach the same heights as SSB Goku, and was the closest out of everyone who wasn't Vegeta or Freeza to doing that.

Him re-attaining his battle sense to go Ultimate once more and finally reaching that level fully is a suitable narrative progression for his character.

[Hugo Boss]

So, going by the last responses here, I assume we are talking about Super Saiyan Blue level from the fight against Broly? Because that was the last time I remember they had about the same strength in the same form.

Moro arc onward Vegeta sticked with Super Saiyan Blue Evolved, which rivaled Ultra Instinct Sign.

I admit that was my first thought, but considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the battle against Moro, I think it becomes a little out of place if we are importing it to the current state of the manga.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, going by the last responses here, I assume we are talking about Super Saiyan Blue level from the fight against Broly? Because that was the last time I remember they had about the same strength in the same form.

Moro arc onward Vegeta sticked with Super Saiyan Blue Evolved, which rivaled Ultra Instinct Sign.

I admit that was my first thought, but considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the battle against Moro, I think it becomes a little out of place if we are importing it to the current state of the manga.

More so just SSB in general, as there's really no point in differentiating specific minute difference between arcs aside from between the BoG/RoF era and the ToP era onwards.

So, not Broly vs Moro arc levels of SSB, just current SSB in general, as those are the general notes for how it's being equated rather than the minute increases us fans try to figure out.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well we know Gamma 1 and 2 were equal to Ultimate Gohan.

How strong is Piccolo supposed to be in the manga now? Is he stronger than Android 17?

Ultimate Gohan was the strongest on earth aside from Goku and Vegeta. He wasn't Super Saiyan Blue level though.

Ultimate Gohan was just a tiny bit behind Goku and Vegeta in the ToP. Goku said 17 was almost as strong as himself, so Gohan was also almost as strong as Goku back then. He trains for 2 months so I think it's safe to say he's somewhat above ToP SSJB, but far below current SSJB who walked all over Saganbo.

But Piccolo? He's fighting Saganbo alongside Gohan when 17 is injured and incapable of fighting. I used to think this meant Piccolo > 17, but Gohan probably saved Piccolo's ass. He's not SSJB level until he makes his wish so he can't be 17 level. Maybe he's surpassed Frost? I have Piccolo at Majin Vegeta level after the 2 months training.

[Kazuya Mishima]

So what it boils down is that Piccolo said the Gammas are as strong as Goku and Vegeta supposedly as Super Saiyan Blue despite knowing they are easily capable of vastly more without issue meaning that the Gammas aren't actually on par with Goku and Vegeta despite saying they are.

So it's just bad writing?

[ZombieVito]

So what it boils down is that Piccolo said the Gammas are as strong as Goku and Vegeta supposedly as Super Saiyan Blue despite knowing they are easily capable of vastly more without issue meaning that the Gammas aren't actually on par with Goku and Vegeta despite saying they are.

So it's just bad writing?

Yeah, it's bad writing since while he can't sense Ultra Instinct Goku, he can sense Super Saiyan Evolved Vegeta yet it's clear by the later part of the movie that the Gammas are just SSB level.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So what it boils down is that Piccolo said the Gammas are as strong as Goku and Vegeta supposedly as Super Saiyan Blue despite knowing they are easily capable of vastly more without issue meaning that the Gammas aren't actually on par with Goku and Vegeta despite saying they are.

So it's just bad writing?

Yeah, it's bad writing since while he can't sense Ultra Instinct Goku, he can sense Super Saiyan Evolved Vegeta yet it's clear by the later part of the movie that the Gammas are just SSB level.

See, this is the problem with the manga comparatively, as the anime only has to deal with Kaioken and Evolved, both of which aren't something Goku and Vegeta have pulled off as a "standard" level but instead an ascended state they pull out when they really need to.

I take this to mean that Toriyama had just normal SSB Goku and Vegeta in mind for both the Broly and SH movies and didn't give much thought to their ascended forms past SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

So, going by the last responses here, I assume we are talking about Super Saiyan Blue level from the fight against Broly? Because that was the last time I remember they had about the same strength in the same form.

Moro arc onward Vegeta sticked with Super Saiyan Blue Evolved, which rivaled Ultra Instinct Sign.

I admit that was my first thought, but considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the battle against Moro, I think it becomes a little out of place if we are importing it to the current state of the manga.

More so just SSB in general, as there's really no point in differentiating specific minute difference between arcs aside from between the BoG/RoF era and the ToP era onwards.

So, not Broly vs Moro arc levels of SSB, just current SSB in general, as those are the general notes for how it's being equated rather than the minute increases us fans try to figure out.

Forgive me, but I’m not seeing your point. What exactly means current Super Saiyan Blue in general? And what minute increases fans are trying to figure out?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, going by the last responses here, I assume we are talking about Super Saiyan Blue level from the fight against Broly? Because that was the last time I remember they had about the same strength in the same form.

Moro arc onward Vegeta sticked with Super Saiyan Blue Evolved, which rivaled Ultra Instinct Sign.

I admit that was my first thought, but considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the battle against Moro, I think it becomes a little out of place if we are importing it to the current state of the manga.

More so just SSB in general, as there's really no point in differentiating specific minute difference between arcs aside from between the BoG/RoF era and the ToP era onwards.

So, not Broly vs Moro arc levels of SSB, just current SSB in general, as those are the general notes for how it's being equated rather than the minute increases us fans try to figure out.

Forgive me, but I’m not seeing your point. What exactly means current Super Saiyan Blue in general? And what minute increases fans are trying to figure out?

Basically, the idea is that SSB is only being considered in a general sense. There aren't really meant to be differences in its level of power from between Broly movie, Moro Arc, etc., so it's just treated as SSB as a whole.

No ascended forms like Kaioken or Evolved, no higher forms like Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego. Just SSB as the standard level that Goku and Vegeta operate at, no significant difference in SSB's power between the anime ToP, manga Moro Arc, Broly movie, etc.

[Hugo Boss]

Basically, the idea is that SSB is only being considered in a general sense. There aren't really meant to be differences in its level of power from between Broly movie, Moro Arc, etc., so it's just treated as SSB as a whole.

No ascended forms like Kaioken or Evolved, no higher forms like Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego. Just SSB as the standard level that Goku and Vegeta operate at, no significant difference in SSB's power between the anime ToP, manga Moro Arc, Broly movie, etc.

When you said current SSB I thought you were talking about the level SSB Goku had when he fought Granolah and Gas, but judging from the story arcs you mentioned, I will assume you are talking about the completed Super Saiyan Blue version in general that is exclusive to the manga.

I still can’t figure out how strong you think the Gammas are. There is a wide range of characters that can fit in that category, going from Toppo to Saganbo.

[Mr Baggins]

I still can’t figure out how strong you think the Gammas are. There is a wide range of characters that can fit in that category, going from Toppo to Saganbo.

Well, that's exactly the point being made here.

The purpose of Piccolo's line isn't to make some super specific estimation of the Gammas' strength. He's just saying they belong to that general tier (hence "about") making them nigh unstoppable to anyone that isn't Goku or Vegeta right now.

Is it a bit of a mystery? I'm sure it is for people putting lists and charts together, but neither the movie nor the manga were trying to have the audience scrutinize his dialogue to that level. Narratively, it's not important.

My personal estimate is probably somewhere between the Blue-level power displayed in Broly and the end of the Moro arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, the specific statement is Piccolo saying the Gammas are “about on pair with Goku and Vegeta themselves”, so I can see why there’s some confusion. The “about” often doesn’t mean anything and these kind of statements are often very precise in the series.

So what it boils down is that Piccolo said the Gammas are as strong as Goku and Vegeta supposedly as Super Saiyan Blue despite knowing they are easily capable of vastly more without issue meaning that the Gammas aren't actually on par with Goku and Vegeta despite saying they are.

So it's just bad writing?

In the movie it made sense, but here it’s more complicated.

I think it’s something like when Goku compared Dabra to Cell and saying he’s not a big deal despite Super Perfect Cell actually being SSJ2 level and threatening Gohan. Just a way of saying “Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who could handle these guys, and they would need almost all of their power”.

[Mr Baggins]

The “about” often doesn’t mean anything and these kind of statements are often very precise in the series.

Contextually, it's as precise as it needs to be. The Gammas aren't "about" as strong as Gohan (whom Piccolo believes to be rusty) or Piccolo himself, but they're comparatively about as strong as Goku and Vegeta – neither of whom are available, hence Piccolo's point about them being in a rut. It carries the same meaning, regardless of whether he's talking about their powers in Broly's story or well into the Moro arc.

He's just saying they're a threat because of the circumstances. He ain't checking off boxes or building some precise tier list, and besides, Toriyama at least had the foresight not to have Goku and Vegeta transform during the movie.

[Kazuya Mishima]

But in the manga they aren't about as strong as Goku and Vegeta. As far as Piccolo should be concerned Vegeta ain't got shit on Goku either.

He knows Goku is on a whole other level, yet he compares the Gammas to both despite being at different levels and then apparently ain't really true either.

[Hugo Boss]

I still can’t figure out how strong you think the Gammas are. There is a wide range of characters that can fit in that category, going from Toppo to Saganbo.

Well, that's exactly the point being made here.

The purpose of Piccolo's line isn't to make some super specific estimation of the Gammas' strength. He's just saying they belong to that general tier (hence "about") making them nigh unstoppable to anyone that isn't Goku or Vegeta right now.

Is it a bit of a mystery? I'm sure it is for people putting lists and charts together, but neither the movie nor the manga were trying to have the audience scrutinize his dialogue to that level. Narratively, it's not important.

My personal estimate is probably somewhere between the Blue-level power displayed in Broly and the end of the Moro arc.

I’m not exactly arguing if this line makes narrative sense, because I understand it was originally written in a different context (their max level was Blue displayed against Broly).

But now that it was imported to manga, here I’m actually trying to understand the reasoning behind Piccolo “obviously?” referring to a general tier of power that not only became widely vast, but Goku and Vegeta current selves had far surpassed. Don’t you think it raises question marks (???), specially for manga readers that already saw the movie? I’m not even talking about powerlevel enthusiasts.

Well, Piccolo said the Gammas rivaled Goku/Vegeta, and Gohan in his ultimate form rivaled the Gammas in the movie, so the next logical step is “Ultimate Gohan rivals Goku/Vegeta”. It’s not difficult to assume Gohan rivals Blue displayed against Broly, because Gohan rivaled Kefla/Kale, who rivaled Blue, and Gohan got stronger after that point, so they should be close enough to warrant that comparison. Until here everything adds up.

The problem arises when Super Saiyan Blue displayed against Saganbo and Moro is in a completely different level from the one displayed against Zamasu, Toppo, Jiren and Broly. Piccolo even stated it as much, considering not even 17, 18, Gohan and Piccolo as a team could deal with Saganbo, while Goku could beat him around easily with Blue. That was quite a demonstration of how much stronger Blue became than Gohan in the manga (I don’t think we can count his rage boost against Moro because that was temporary and he couldn’t even budge Moro an inch, Blue could at least damage Moro a little).

I don’t think I would question the Blue comparison if Gohan got remarkably stronger since he fought Moro, but judging from Piccolo’s reactions in the recent chapters, it seems that was his peak, until further clarification, so I’m still skeptical that you can easily import this line to the manga without making adjustments.

[Mr Baggins]

Don’t you think it raises question marks (???), specially for manga readers that already saw the movie?

As a manga reader that already saw the movie myself, I think I've made it clear that I don't. I've been saying from day one that the manga wasn't likely going to deviate from SH's script, and here we are.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that Piccolo is logically referring to Blue. To his knowledge, it's the strongest form wherein Goku and Vegeta are relative to each other. There's nothing to analyze beyond that. How specifically close the Gammas are to a full-blown Moro arc tier Blue is an open question, though clearly not one that the story is committed to answering because it's not exactly the point.

Even if you were to highball the Gammas to being that strong, it's less of an issue when you realize that Gohan regularly gets vast boosts in power from enraged awakenings all the time; it's kind of his whole thing. So when he retriggers Ultimate in Super Hero, that alone could've elevated his power to that of the upgraded Blue form used against Moro.

It doesn't take much for Gohan to reach insane jumps in a flash. Sometimes he accomplishes that via a little training, sometimes he gets it from magical rituals, and sometimes, more often than not, he just does it by getting really fucking mad.

[Cipher]

But in the manga they aren't about as strong as Goku and Vegeta. As far as Piccolo should be concerned Vegeta ain't got shit on Goku either.

He knows Goku is on a whole other level, yet he compares the Gammas to both despite being at different levels and then apparently ain't really true either.

If anything, that should be a further tell that he simply intends to group them in a general “Blue” tier, which is outside the level of everyone on Earth at that point except for Gohan if he can get his groove back.

And maybe it is the Blue from the end of the Moro arc, which is still fine.

Otherwise, though, I tend to think of this as being the same as the “#17’s strength wasn’t so far off from mine” line. Just a general way of pointing out, “Woah, this guy’s really up there!”

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think it's easy to assume that Piccolo's words shouldn't be taken at face value here, especially when you take the entire movie in context.

The Gammas are shown to be relatively equal to Ultimate Gohan, who has been consistently portrayed in Super as below SSB Goku/Vegeta. Even assuming that his awakening put him on par with the current Blue-level, similar words were used to describe Orange Piccolo's strength (''on par with Goku and co.''). But Goku and Vegeta were later compared to Cell Max, who is clearly above Orange Piccolo.

So I see these comparisons as just a way to put the characters in that same ''tier'', but not as accurate depictions of their strength.

[TobyS]

How does Piccolos performance against Gamma 2 compare. His relative level of fear and stuff? Strength statements from Gamma about Piccolo etc, Been a while since I saw the movie.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How does Piccolos performance against Gamma 2 compare. His relative level of fear and stuff? Strength statements from Gamma about Piccolo etc, Been a while since I saw the movie.

The manga is mostly just copying the movie, so reading it is a good way of refreshing your memory. Only difference is Piccolo vs Gamma 2 is a bit less one sided, but Piccolo is no match either way. I guess Toyotaro just followed rule of cool, and Gamma 2 is toying more. The Gammas are still as strong as Goku and Vegeta, and presumably will be on pair with Ultimate Gohan in a couple months.