Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:28 pm

Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:43 am
Majin Buu wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:18 am Stuff like that is in line with the Buu arc's more humorous, pre-Zesqe tone and the character's silliness as a whole; so it sounds more like you have an issue with the Buu arc's general tone than its filler.
It's both. The arc's tone after the Saiyaman stuff is incredibly inconsistent & flip-flops back & forth on if it wants to be humorous or serious at sporadic intervals. Not to mention all of the contrivances to keep the plot going after a while & the fact that the arc just keeps going because Toriyama didn't know where to end it. The filler in the anime didn't help with that.
I love when stories shift tones. That's not a negative. I agree about the plot contrivances, though.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:57 am

Scsigs wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:43 am It's both. The arc's tone after the Saiyaman stuff is incredibly inconsistent & flip-flops back & forth on if it wants to be humorous or serious at sporadic intervals.
I like that the Buu arc isn't afraid to be humorous and fun among all the chaos happening in it. It's the kind of subversive element I love about Toriyama's writing.
Not to mention all of the contrivances to keep the plot going after a while & the fact that the arc just keeps going because Toriyama didn't know where to end it. The filler in the anime didn't help with that.
My own unpopular opinions here in response:

1. Contrivances that happen to facilitate plot developments is something that occurs all throughout Dragon Ball. People only take issue with it when it results in plot developments they personally don't like.

2. People who say stuff like "Toriyama didn't know when to end it" are just projecting their own issues with the story onto him rather than making some negative judgement on Toriayama as a writer. From what we know, Toriyama wrote the Buu arc the way he wanted. You're free to not like how he did it, but it feels like you're conflating not liking the result with ineptitude on his part when I don't think the arc as a whole indicates any more inept writing on his part than what we typically got from him.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:05 am

Contrivances are usually always a necessary evil for narrative fiction. Sometimes they do get too much but often criticism of it are just nitpicky and pedantic.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Thu May 18, 2023 10:32 pm

You know what? I think I have a pretty unpopular opinion here; I actually prefer the ending song that FUNimation used for Movie 8 over Burning Fight. As much as I firmly agree with the general consensus that FUNimation old practice of using licensed band music for several of the old movies and specials was dumb, I think Movie 8 was easily their best use of this practice, and the end credit song they used is actually kind of kind of relaxing.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu May 18, 2023 10:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:05 am Contrivances are usually always a necessary evil for narrative fiction. Sometimes they do get too much but often criticism of it are just nitpicky and pedantic.
Yeah at the end of the day something's gonna have to conveniently fall into place...the same shit happens in real life when you take a step back and examine shit, anyway. It's only bad if it requires people to behave wildly out of character or it just stretches the bounds of credibility.

That being said, the Buu saga is still a horrendous mess narratively that just manages to be entertaining and stumbles into a good ending. But the entire middle portion circling the drain with Gotenks, Gohan, and Vegetto just winds up being an egregious waste of time, and every single character besides Vegeta and Goku just get shafted narratively with no resolution. Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with Gohan et al collapsing under expectations but the story just doesn't address it at all. Even Vegeta got his little moment of reflection at the end of the Cell Games - the Buu saga just completely discards Gohan and the boys and leaves their story arcs unresolved.

In previous arcs, the various failures of characters preceding Goku served purposes - killing an important character off, humbling Vegeta, showing Gohan's resolve and confidence, etc. About the only thing I can think that was a waste of time was Piccolo in the Frieza saga. But with Buu you could legitimately get rid of everything between Super Buu's human extinction shower and Goku returning to Earth and it would have zero impact. But what happens to Gohan, Goten, and Trunks? Who cares, they get absorbed by Buu somehow.

That's why it winds up feeling like a sloppy storyline that Toriyama didn't know what to do with. It just shows in the writing, more slapdash even byhis standards.

And I mean, just look at how poor the art is after the Saiyaman stuff. The man was clearly running on fumes.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Majin Buu » Fri May 19, 2023 10:41 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:54 pm That being said, the Buu saga is still a horrendous mess narratively that just manages to be entertaining and stumbles into a good ending. But the entire middle portion circling the drain with Gotenks, Gohan, and Vegetto just winds up being an egregious waste of time, and every single character besides Vegeta and Goku just get shafted narratively with no resolution. Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with Gohan et al collapsing under expectations but the story just doesn't address it at all. Even Vegeta got his little moment of reflection at the end of the Cell Games - the Buu saga just completely discards Gohan and the boys and leaves their story arcs unresolved.
I'm gonna push back on some things here:

With Gotenks, he isn't cut out to be a hero because he can't take anything seriously- because he's an amped up amalgamation of two immature brats that have never been in a high stakes battle like this- and fails against Buu because of that. The story is pretty explicit about why Gotenks is a failure so having him go "I guess I'm not cut out for this, peace out" isn't necessary to me- nor would it be particularly in-character for him to begin with.

As for Gohan, we'll just have to agree to disagree here- that just doesn't bother me. Would having something like that work better? Sure, but its absence isn't enough to deem the arc awful for me.

And Vegetto isn't a waste of time since his existence was needed to level the playing field against Buu in the first place. His existence is what made the final battle possible when Buu had pretty much won after absorbing Gohan.
In previous arcs, the various failures of characters preceding Goku served purposes - killing an important character off, humbling Vegeta, showing Gohan's resolve and confidence, etc. About the only thing I can think that was a waste of time was Piccolo in the Frieza saga. But with Buu you could legitimately get rid of everything between Super Buu's human extinction shower and Goku returning to Earth and it would have zero impact. But what happens to Gohan, Goten, and Trunks? Who cares, they get absorbed by Buu somehow.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here too. I was never invested in them as characters with a story arc so I didn't mind how they ended up. To me, they were just serving the same red-herring functions the likes of Piccolo and Vegeta have in past arcs. Would proper closure be better? Again, sure; but again, the lack of it simply never bothered me so it's not a huge enough issue to tank the arc for me.

Frankly, I think this is a flaw that gets overstated by detractors as being a bigger deal than it really is.
That's why it winds up feeling like a sloppy storyline that Toriyama didn't know what to do with. It just shows in the writing, more slapdash even byhis standards.

And I mean, just look at how poor the art is after the Saiyaman stuff. The man was clearly running on fumes.
Going by the art at times, yes, he was clearly burned out at this point; but I don't think he was as checked out as detractors love to say; because I think if he was, the arc wouldn't be nearly as creative as it is. Poking fun at what the series had become and subverting the worn-thin fighting formula as much as he could, giving us a villain that breaks the mold by mixing comedy and terror, the way Buu fundamentally changes when he meets the best and worst of humanity, Fusion as a concept, the way the opening narration and the Spirit Bomb finale together paint what seems to be Toriyama's view on people in general (People will inevitably act like fools and do stupid things, but people are also capable of great good too), etc.

Inspired ideas like this don't come from a person that's 100% checked out.
Last edited by Majin Buu on Fri May 19, 2023 12:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri May 19, 2023 10:48 am

Also some of the best art bar none has come from the Buu arc. It's not the cesspool the poster Majin Buu was responding to says it is.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zephyr » Sat May 20, 2023 10:32 am

Majin Buu wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:41 amWe'll just have to agree to disagree here too. I was never invested in them as characters with a story arc so I didn't mind how they ended up. To me, they were just serving the same red-herring functions the likes of Piccolo and Vegeta have in past arcs. Would proper closure be better? Again, sure; but again, the lack of it simply never bothered me so it's not a huge enough issue to tank the arc for me.
I do agree with you overall here, in that I don't really mind at all that Goku took center stage back from the kids, and that the latter do end up working effectively as "red herrings" (whether that was Toriyama's intent while writing the arc's beginning and middle portions or not); I do in fact prefer it this way. But I also can't fault jjgp1112 for finding dissatisfaction with the fact that this isn't at all really acknowledged or commented on from their end(s).

I don't think it makes the arc a "horrendous mess narratively", but some characters were definitely shafted near the climax, in the sense that their own views and characterization with reference to the their journey up to that point just got abandoned and never referenced again or tied up, rather than in the sense that "they lost" (which, again, is perfectly fine and my preferred route for the plot to take overall).

The story arc opens from Gohan's perspective, with Goten and Trunks gradually roped into it as the idea of the Tenkaichi Budokai comes into focus. I think that Goku taking back over from Gohan is a nice mirror of Gohan taking over from Goku the arc prior, with just as much apparent abruptness and unexpectedness as was seen there. But since we spend so much time with Gohan and seeing things from his perspective, even if he's ultimately going to fail and tag his father back in, it would have felt more narratively satisfying if we saw him reflect upon that failure, or something.

Even a tinge of regret or frustration over his loss against Boo after he's revived during the climax might have gone a long way to placate Gohan fans' frustrations, I think. One of those things I'd have added to the Kanzenban release, if I were Toriyama, rather than whatever was added with Vegeta and Oob during the epilogue.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sat May 20, 2023 11:50 am

I think 1 of the main problems with the Buu Saga is that not a lot of set-ups in the arc that fans care about get meaningful or satisfying pay-offs. They are as such: Gohan having to regain control of a lot of his underlying powers from when he defeated Cell to take on Buu, Vegeta's sacrifice & character arc that led to it, Goten & Trunks stepping up to the plate to help save the universe, etc. They're all thrown away for the sake of the drama to ramp it up for the audience, but the escalation gets to be too much after a while.
Vegeta's sacrifice is immediately thrown away for Buu reforming to give him that power. Not necessarily a bad thing to introduce, but to use a big character defining moment for Vegeta that was 3 arcs in the making is really disappointing.
Goten &. Trunks becoming fighters is thrown away when Gotenks gets absorbed by Buu & they don't do much else for the rest of the arc. Even when Goten wanted to avenge his mother getting killed by Buu.
Gohan getting his old power back & more is thrown away when he 1. gets beaten up by Buu after he absorbed Gotenks & Piccolo & 2. gets absorbed by Buu when Goku wants to try to fuse with him to take Buu down.
Like, these are great moments & things, but they're either undermined, or thrown away altogether. Things like this are why the arc is very divisive in the fanbase.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 20, 2023 3:20 pm

Scsigs wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:50 am I think 1 of the main problems with the Buu Saga is that not a lot of set-ups in the arc that fans care about get meaningful or satisfying pay-offs. They are as such: Gohan having to regain control of a lot of his underlying powers from when he defeated Cell to take on Buu, Vegeta's sacrifice & character arc that led to it, Goten & Trunks stepping up to the plate to help save the universe, etc. They're all thrown away for the sake of the drama to ramp it up for the audience, but the escalation gets to be too much after a while.
Vegeta's sacrifice is immediately thrown away for Buu reforming to give him that power. Not necessarily a bad thing to introduce, but to use a big character defining moment for Vegeta that was 3 arcs in the making is really disappointing.
Goten &. Trunks becoming fighters is thrown away when Gotenks gets absorbed by Buu & they don't do much else for the rest of the arc. Even when Goten wanted to avenge his mother getting killed by Buu.
Gohan getting his old power back & more is thrown away when he 1. gets beaten up by Buu after he absorbed Gotenks & Piccolo & 2. gets absorbed by Buu when Goku wants to try to fuse with him to take Buu down.
Like, these are great moments & things, but they're either undermined, or thrown away altogether. Things like this are why the arc is very divisive in the fanbase.
Of those that you mentioned, Vegeta's arc wasn't thrown away. His journey was never to defeat Buu. He still had a big change and his return took that and further cemented it when he had his full epiphany. He still changed, and that's the point, not the impact on the plot.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

I've always enjoyed the Buu saga, particularly the middle portion. Super Buu was terrifying when he showed up at the Lookout. It was the ultimate shit hitting the fan moment.

The Gotenks vs Super Buu fight managed to be both tense and hilarious at the same time. Super Buu was the most evil and unpredictable villain we'd seen up to that point, and the last hope of stopping him was a kid with great power but zero common sense. Also his techniques are actually interesting to watch, and feel like a throwback to the wacky tournaments of early DB.

Mystic Gohan was the ultimate subversion of expectations. He was given so much buildup, and actually gave Buu a badass beatdown before screwing up. The story at this point was so unpredictable that it felt like anything could happen, which added to the excitement. It's unlike any other arc.

And Vegito is awesome, not just because he's strong, but because he actually feels like a combination of Goku and Vegeta personality wise. Having him kill Buu would be anti-climactic, but the short time he's around for is fun and really memorable.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 20, 2023 3:44 pm

I see Gotenks as no different than when Piccolo merged with Nail and was able to stand blow for blow with Freeza until Freeza transforms again or when Vegeta comes out of the Room of Spirit and Time stronger than Semi Perfect Cell only to get clowned by Perfect Cell. We know Gotenks isn't going to save the day because the whole time Gohan is in the process of getting his power up. Gotenks is there to keep things entertaining so the villain isn't non-stop dominating the good guys until the real hero shows up.

Even though Ultimate Gohan is ultimately (heh) a fake out I actually like that it's basically a subversion of Goku getting victory handed to him in the Daimao arc with the Super God Water. One of the most often cited and completely fair criticisms of the Daimao arc is Goku didn't have to work for his gains. Even though it wasn't the original plan, I like that Toriyama pulled a fast one and said "No Gohan isn't just gonna be given a power up by a pervy decrepit purple god and get the win"


And agreed on what Abed said about Vegeta.


You can see the seams in the Boo arc but it doesn't make the story bad.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sat May 20, 2023 8:06 pm

ABED wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 3:20 pm Of those that you mentioned, Vegeta's arc wasn't thrown away. His journey was never to defeat Buu. He still had a big change and his return took that and further cemented it when he had his full epiphany. He still changed, and that's the point, not the impact on the plot.
I mean, yeah. I can give it that at least Toriyama paid that character arc off & then furthered it. The main problem is that him killing Buu is what's supposed to punctuate his development. For Buu to reform immediately after it for drama, while I get why Toriyama did it, it undermines it. Maybe if he had Babidi use his magic to help Buu reform because Buu was too weak or something from the explosion, it'd be better because at least it'd leave an impact. Like, I don't hate either moments, it's just how they're executed that's the disappointing thing about it.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 20, 2023 8:13 pm

Scsigs wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:06 pm
I mean, yeah. I can give it that at least Toriyama paid that character arc off & then furthered it. The main problem is that him killing Buu is what's supposed to punctuate his development. For Buu to reform immediately after it for drama, while I get why Toriyama did it, it undermines it. Maybe if he had Babidi use his magic to help Buu reform because Buu was too weak or something from the explosion, it'd be better because at least it'd leave an impact. Like, I don't hate either moments, it's just how they're executed that's the disappointing thing about it.
But killing Buu isn't supposed to punctuate his development. It was about him being selfless for once in his life and sacrificing himself to protect Trunks and Bulma, knowing full well he's headed for hell and going through the reincarnation process. His failure to actually destroy Buu doesn't undermine this act in the slightest. And I don't see how "It worked but then Babidi's magic undone it and made Buu better" would have in any way made it better.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MCDaveG » Mon May 22, 2023 7:25 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:54 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:05 am Contrivances are usually always a necessary evil for narrative fiction. Sometimes they do get too much but often criticism of it are just nitpicky and pedantic.
Yeah at the end of the day something's gonna have to conveniently fall into place...the same shit happens in real life when you take a step back and examine shit, anyway. It's only bad if it requires people to behave wildly out of character or it just stretches the bounds of credibility.

That being said, the Buu saga is still a horrendous mess narratively that just manages to be entertaining and stumbles into a good ending. But the entire middle portion circling the drain with Gotenks, Gohan, and Vegetto just winds up being an egregious waste of time, and every single character besides Vegeta and Goku just get shafted narratively with no resolution. Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with Gohan et al collapsing under expectations but the story just doesn't address it at all. Even Vegeta got his little moment of reflection at the end of the Cell Games - the Buu saga just completely discards Gohan and the boys and leaves their story arcs unresolved.

In previous arcs, the various failures of characters preceding Goku served purposes - killing an important character off, humbling Vegeta, showing Gohan's resolve and confidence, etc. About the only thing I can think that was a waste of time was Piccolo in the Frieza saga. But with Buu you could legitimately get rid of everything between Super Buu's human extinction shower and Goku returning to Earth and it would have zero impact. But what happens to Gohan, Goten, and Trunks? Who cares, they get absorbed by Buu somehow.

That's why it winds up feeling like a sloppy storyline that Toriyama didn't know what to do with. It just shows in the writing, more slapdash even byhis standards.

And I mean, just look at how poor the art is after the Saiyaman stuff. The man was clearly running on fumes.
I totally get the points, but it was something I did love as a kid in the TV show actually. Buu arc was epic to watch for the first time for me and the way it always ended on cliffhanger, damn! Pulling off stuff like fusions, Buu's new forms. I was super tired from Freeza, being just one loooooong prolonged fight on exploding Namek. But we all know why is that.

On the other hand, in manga, I really felt that Toriyama was going for the ending and he had enough in the Buu arc.
The start of the arc up until the SSJ3 Goku was pretty much the usual, but as you guys mentioned, it went kinda simplistic around the end and it was, let's try this, defeated, next one. Even the art got symplistic a lot, as Toriyama wasn't bothering himself to draw proper backgrounds and some of the panels are just few quick lines. But he took a lot of care with the epilog.
I still admire his decisions and invention, like using the Kaioshin earrings to pull fusion out of nowhere... and all Buu designs are some of my most favorite villain designs in Dragon Ball.

My unpopular opinion would be, that Toriyama lost the touch around 2005... almost all the alien characters look like the Slime for Dragon Quest and everyone looks like Super Saiyan God, incredibly slim, with fewer details but as he went back to curves, the whole aesthetic looks kinda weird and unusual in comparison to everything we were used to. Before that, can't say which period of his work is my favorite, as Dr. Slump/DB were incredible and while he streamlined his art a lot, it still had a lot attention to detail.
Everything from now in comparison, looks more like doodles.
But I still have a huge respect for the guy! He had acomplished so much, his style is completely unique from all the classic manga/anime looks that I perceived as cheap and unoriginal – and still do.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Majin Buu » Mon May 22, 2023 9:58 am

Scsigs wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:50 am I think 1 of the main problems with the Buu Saga is that not a lot of set-ups in the arc that fans care about get meaningful or satisfying pay-offs. They are as such: Gohan having to regain control of a lot of his underlying powers from when he defeated Cell to take on Buu, Vegeta's sacrifice & character arc that led to it, Goten & Trunks stepping up to the plate to help save the universe, etc. They're all thrown away for the sake of the drama to ramp it up for the audience, but the escalation gets to be too much after a while.
Vegeta's sacrifice is immediately thrown away for Buu reforming to give him that power. Not necessarily a bad thing to introduce, but to use a big character defining moment for Vegeta that was 3 arcs in the making is really disappointing.
I agree with what Masenko said about this, and to add to that:

Vegeta's self-sacrifice being a great character moment that nonetheless ends in failure for him is what balances out the heinous acts he committed at the tournament. It's a turning point for his character, but he still has to pay the price for what he did back there and I think that his noble death being for naught is a fitting price.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 3:44 pm Even though Ultimate Gohan is ultimately (heh) a fake out I actually like that it's basically a subversion of Goku getting victory handed to him in the Daimao arc with the Super God Water. One of the most often cited and completely fair criticisms of the Daimao arc is Goku didn't have to work for his gains. Even though it wasn't the original plan, I like that Toriyama pulled a fast one and said "No Gohan isn't just gonna be given a power up by a pervy decrepit purple god and get the win"
This.

To add, I like how him getting the power up by sitting on his ass for a long time comedically subverts the "training from hell" scenarios we've seen in past arcs.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 22, 2023 4:00 pm

Yeah, Vegeta's development was not tied to the outcome of his sacrifice, but to his own actions. Already sacrificing himself was enough, if he ended up killing Buu that would've been a plus.
He was willing to give up his own life to put an end to the threat and let others live, it doesn't matter if his life was enough to get the job done.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by DB1984 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:33 pm

Not sure if this would be unpopular or not, but Dale Kelly >>>>>>>> Kyle Hebert.

You could tell Dale had a lot of fun as the Narrator and Ginyu, and it was very unjust that he was fired by FUNimation.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scientist Fu » Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:20 pm

I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but Z Broly is better than S Broly and SDBH is better than DBS. Now, I don't think I have enough arguments to prove my points, but yeah, that's what I've always thought.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:00 pm

Scientist Fu wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:20 pm I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but Z Broly is better than S Broly and SDBH is better than DBS. Now, I don't think I have enough arguments to prove my points, but yeah, that's what I've always thought.
Z Broly is more brutal/reckless. I can see how people like that more than the victimized Super Broly.

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