Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 26, 2023 1:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:18 pm We see that when Black fights Goku, he progressively powers-up and becomes stronger, gradually awakening the great strength of his body, with Krillin even noting that Black's power keeps rising as the fight progresses; that's because, as he fights Goku, Black learns how to tap more and more into the huge power reserves of his body. At the climax of the fight, Black was even able to completely outplay and overpower SS2 Goku with an energy ball + kick combo. Right after the battle, Trunks says that Black was stronger in his fight with Goku compared to his fights in the Future.
Actually, Trunks said Black was a little stronger when he fought him before, which prompted Vegeta to conclude he or Goku were more than enough to deal with Black, since Goku didn’t use Super Saiyan Blue in that fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri May 26, 2023 5:22 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:18 pm We see that when Black fights Goku, he progressively powers-up and becomes stronger, gradually awakening the great strength of his body, with Krillin even noting that Black's power keeps rising as the fight progresses; that's because, as he fights Goku, Black learns how to tap more and more into the huge power reserves of his body. At the climax of the fight, Black was even able to completely outplay and overpower SS2 Goku with an energy ball + kick combo. Right after the battle, Trunks says that Black was stronger in his fight with Goku compared to his fights in the Future.
Actually, Trunks said Black was a little stronger when he fought him before, which prompted Vegeta to conclude he or Goku were more than enough to deal with Black, since Goku didn’t use Super Saiyan Blue in that fight.
Blacks been purposely lowering his battle power just enough to have a challenge, so that he can get hurt and heal from it as well. Somehow having a Divine Spirit in a Saiyan body has enabled him to bypass the "zenkai" restrictions and limits. So unlike Goku and Vegeta he can repeatedly get massive jumps in power through the "zenkais".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 26, 2023 10:42 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:22 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:18 pm We see that when Black fights Goku, he progressively powers-up and becomes stronger, gradually awakening the great strength of his body, with Krillin even noting that Black's power keeps rising as the fight progresses; that's because, as he fights Goku, Black learns how to tap more and more into the huge power reserves of his body. At the climax of the fight, Black was even able to completely outplay and overpower SS2 Goku with an energy ball + kick combo. Right after the battle, Trunks says that Black was stronger in his fight with Goku compared to his fights in the Future.
Actually, Trunks said Black was a little stronger when he fought him before, which prompted Vegeta to conclude he or Goku were more than enough to deal with Black, since Goku didn’t use Super Saiyan Blue in that fight.
Blacks been purposely lowering his battle power just enough to have a challenge, so that he can get hurt and heal from it as well. Somehow having a Divine Spirit in a Saiyan body has enabled him to bypass the "zenkai" restrictions and limits. So unlike Goku and Vegeta he can repeatedly get massive jumps in power through the "zenkais".
That was the manga take or sort of. If that was his intention in the anime he could have done it with Trunks, since he and Goku weren’t so far off from each other in their SS2 form. For me, it seemed like Black needed to fight Goku to make his body remember the way Goku used to fight. It was a very specific match-up he needed to evolve.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 27, 2023 5:00 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:18 pm We see that when Black fights Goku, he progressively powers-up and becomes stronger, gradually awakening the great strength of his body, with Krillin even noting that Black's power keeps rising as the fight progresses; that's because, as he fights Goku, Black learns how to tap more and more into the huge power reserves of his body. At the climax of the fight, Black was even able to completely outplay and overpower SS2 Goku with an energy ball + kick combo. Right after the battle, Trunks says that Black was stronger in his fight with Goku compared to his fights in the Future.
Actually, Trunks said Black was a little stronger when he fought him before, which prompted Vegeta to conclude he or Goku were more than enough to deal with Black, since Goku didn’t use Super Saiyan Blue in that fight.
Trunks said that, "Compared to the future", Black was "a little bit stronger".

Right after the fight, the injured Black is pleased by how his power has grown significantly.

Goku was completely outmatched in SS2 and would have needed a higher form if the fight continued.

Naturally, the Black who fought Goku would stomp Trunks even harder, since fighting Goku allowed him to access more and more of his strength.

In the following episode, Black unleashes his new power and gives a demonstration of how much it's grown, and the next time they fight, Base Black is able to effortlessly blitz through SSB Vegeta's guard, with Vegeta even noting how much he's powered-up since the first fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 27, 2023 8:17 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:00 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:18 pm We see that when Black fights Goku, he progressively powers-up and becomes stronger, gradually awakening the great strength of his body, with Krillin even noting that Black's power keeps rising as the fight progresses; that's because, as he fights Goku, Black learns how to tap more and more into the huge power reserves of his body. At the climax of the fight, Black was even able to completely outplay and overpower SS2 Goku with an energy ball + kick combo. Right after the battle, Trunks says that Black was stronger in his fight with Goku compared to his fights in the Future.
Actually, Trunks said Black was a little stronger when he fought him before, which prompted Vegeta to conclude he or Goku were more than enough to deal with Black, since Goku didn’t use Super Saiyan Blue in that fight.
Trunks said that, "Compared to the future", Black was "a little bit stronger".

Right after the fight, the injured Black is pleased by how his power has grown significantly.

Goku was completely outmatched in SS2 and would have needed a higher form if the fight continued.

Naturally, the Black who fought Goku would stomp Trunks even harder, since fighting Goku allowed him to access more and more of his strength.

In the following episode, Black unleashes his new power and gives a demonstration of how much it's grown, and the next time they fight, Base Black is able to effortlessly blitz through SSB Vegeta's guard, with Vegeta even noting how much he's powered-up since the first fight.
I don’t know which translation you have, but this is completely the opposite of what Trunks says.

Goku: Hey, Trunks, compared to when you fought this guy in the future, how did he faired now?
Trunks: Huh? In the future he seemed a little bit stronger.
Goku: Just a little bit?
Trunks: I think so.
Goku: Then…
Vegeta: Then, don’t worry!
Trunks: Huh?
Vegeta: You haven’t seen Kakarot’s true power. Besides, just to be sure, my level is identical.
Trunks: What happened?
Vegeta: Well, a lot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 27, 2023 12:45 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:17 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:00 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:25 pm
Actually, Trunks said Black was a little stronger when he fought him before, which prompted Vegeta to conclude he or Goku were more than enough to deal with Black, since Goku didn’t use Super Saiyan Blue in that fight.
Trunks said that, "Compared to the future", Black was "a little bit stronger".

Right after the fight, the injured Black is pleased by how his power has grown significantly.

Goku was completely outmatched in SS2 and would have needed a higher form if the fight continued.

Naturally, the Black who fought Goku would stomp Trunks even harder, since fighting Goku allowed him to access more and more of his strength.

In the following episode, Black unleashes his new power and gives a demonstration of how much it's grown, and the next time they fight, Base Black is able to effortlessly blitz through SSB Vegeta's guard, with Vegeta even noting how much he's powered-up since the first fight.
I don’t know which translation you have, but this is completely the opposite of what Trunks says.

Goku: Hey, Trunks, compared to when you fought this guy in the future, how did he faired now?
Trunks: Huh? In the future he seemed a little bit stronger.
Goku: Just a little bit?
Trunks: I think so.
Goku: Then…
Vegeta: Then, don’t worry!
Trunks: Huh?
Vegeta: You haven’t seen Kakarot’s true power. Besides, just to be sure, my level is identical.
Trunks: What happened?
Vegeta: Well, a lot.
Key word "he SEEMED". Black was studying and analysing Goku's movements and techniques during the fight, so it is possible that he was not going all out. He says in the following episode that the fight allowed him to study and understand Goku's moves, which raised his destructive power even more. While Goku was going all out to try and put down the threat in SS2, Black might not have been taking it very seriously as he was busy studying Goku's every movement.

Naturally, Black's power rises after every fight and that fight was no exception. Black is truly special and unique, and so his power was greater after the Goku fight compared to his earlier fights with Trunks.

Either way, SS2 was weak and insufficient against Black and Goku would have needed at least SS3 to have a slight chance of putting down Black.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 27, 2023 1:45 pm

So

Goku Black (Post Goku) >>>>>>>> Goku Black (FP in the future before) >= Goku Black (End of fight) >= SSJ2 Goku (FP) ~ SSJ3 Goku (Suppressed vs Trunks)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 28, 2023 7:45 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:45 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:17 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:00 am

Trunks said that, "Compared to the future", Black was "a little bit stronger".

Right after the fight, the injured Black is pleased by how his power has grown significantly.

Goku was completely outmatched in SS2 and would have needed a higher form if the fight continued.

Naturally, the Black who fought Goku would stomp Trunks even harder, since fighting Goku allowed him to access more and more of his strength.

In the following episode, Black unleashes his new power and gives a demonstration of how much it's grown, and the next time they fight, Base Black is able to effortlessly blitz through SSB Vegeta's guard, with Vegeta even noting how much he's powered-up since the first fight.
I don’t know which translation you have, but this is completely the opposite of what Trunks says.

Goku: Hey, Trunks, compared to when you fought this guy in the future, how did he faired now?
Trunks: Huh? In the future he seemed a little bit stronger.
Goku: Just a little bit?
Trunks: I think so.
Goku: Then…
Vegeta: Then, don’t worry!
Trunks: Huh?
Vegeta: You haven’t seen Kakarot’s true power. Besides, just to be sure, my level is identical.
Trunks: What happened?
Vegeta: Well, a lot.
Key word "he SEEMED". Black was studying and analysing Goku's movements and techniques during the fight, so it is possible that he was not going all out. He says in the following episode that the fight allowed him to study and understand Goku's moves, which raised his destructive power even more. While Goku was going all out to try and put down the threat in SS2, Black might not have been taking it very seriously as he was busy studying Goku's every movement.

Naturally, Black's power rises after every fight and that fight was no exception. Black is truly special and unique, and so his power was greater after the Goku fight compared to his earlier fights with Trunks.

Either way, SS2 was weak and insufficient against Black and Goku would have needed at least SS3 to have a slight chance of putting down Black.
I’m not disputing any of that. I just made a quick correction about what you said above, that Black was using more power against SS2 Goku than he used against SS2 Trunks. Of course Black wasn’t going all out against SS2 Goku since he can easily beat SS2 Trunks, who was stronger than SS2 Goku. So, it wouldn’t make sense if Black was using more power against SS2 Goku there, as their match wasn’t as one sided as it was with SS2 Trunks.

Anyway, that match-up wasn’t exactly about defeating Goku, since he couldn’t do that yet, but learning more about him, as you said in this last post. If Black decided to go all-out in that instance without considering that Goku had three forms stronger and without considering that he was still unable to use SS Rosé, Black probably would have been defeated sooner.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 29, 2023 6:38 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:45 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:45 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:17 am
I don’t know which translation you have, but this is completely the opposite of what Trunks says.

Goku: Hey, Trunks, compared to when you fought this guy in the future, how did he faired now?
Trunks: Huh? In the future he seemed a little bit stronger.
Goku: Just a little bit?
Trunks: I think so.
Goku: Then…
Vegeta: Then, don’t worry!
Trunks: Huh?
Vegeta: You haven’t seen Kakarot’s true power. Besides, just to be sure, my level is identical.
Trunks: What happened?
Vegeta: Well, a lot.
Key word "he SEEMED". Black was studying and analysing Goku's movements and techniques during the fight, so it is possible that he was not going all out. He says in the following episode that the fight allowed him to study and understand Goku's moves, which raised his destructive power even more. While Goku was going all out to try and put down the threat in SS2, Black might not have been taking it very seriously as he was busy studying Goku's every movement.

Naturally, Black's power rises after every fight and that fight was no exception. Black is truly special and unique, and so his power was greater after the Goku fight compared to his earlier fights with Trunks.

Either way, SS2 was weak and insufficient against Black and Goku would have needed at least SS3 to have a slight chance of putting down Black.
I’m not disputing any of that. I just made a quick correction about what you said above, that Black was using more power against SS2 Goku than he used against SS2 Trunks. Of course Black wasn’t going all out against SS2 Goku since he can easily beat SS2 Trunks, who was stronger than SS2 Goku. So, it wouldn’t make sense if Black was using more power against SS2 Goku there, as their match wasn’t as one sided as it was with SS2 Trunks.

Anyway, that match-up wasn’t exactly about defeating Goku, since he couldn’t do that yet, but learning more about him, as you said in this last post. If Black decided to go all-out in that instance without considering that Goku had three forms stronger and without considering that he was still unable to use SS Rosé, Black probably would have been defeated sooner.
Goku vs. Trunks was a friendly/casual sparring session, there's no evidence SS2 Goku was going all out vs. Trunks.

Zamasu knows all about Goku's personality, he knows he's a battle-freak who enjoys fighting, he was confident that he had nothing to fear from Goku. Goku never kills an opponent that can give him a good fight, Zamasu knows this. Black didn't risk anything by going all-out, but he had no reason to go all-out either. He wasn't fighting for his life and he wanted to prolong the fight as long as possible so that he could keep studying Goku's movements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 29, 2023 7:37 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:38 am Goku vs. Trunks was a friendly/casual sparring session, there's no evidence SS2 Goku was going all out vs. Trunks.
That was a test match to see how Goku compared to Black. Goku would have no reason to use SS3 if he wasn’t being pressured by SS2 Trunks. Everyone in the audience was surprised that Trunks was surpassing Goku in that form. So, naturally if Black was equal or stronger than SS2 Trunks he would be stronger than SS2 Goku as well. There was no point in using a stronger form if he could manage something in that one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:37 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:38 am Goku vs. Trunks was a friendly/casual sparring session, there's no evidence SS2 Goku was going all out vs. Trunks.
That was a test match to see how Goku compared to Black. Goku would have no reason to use SS3 if he wasn’t being pressured by SS2 Trunks. Everyone in the audience was surprised that Trunks was surpassing Goku in that form. So, naturally if Black was equal or stronger than SS2 Trunks he would be stronger than SS2 Goku as well. There was no point in using a stronger form if he could manage something in that one.
Pretty much. After Goku uses SS3, Trunks says that Black still felt stronger. So Black definitely didn't go all-out against SS2 Goku. The manga is even clearer in that regard, Trunks' improved SS2 was just as strong as Goku's SS3, and he was still no match against Black.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Torus silvè » Tue May 30, 2023 9:21 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:45 pm So

Goku Black (Post Goku) >>>>>>>> Goku Black (FP in the future before) >= Goku Black (End of fight) >= SSJ2 Goku (FP) ~ SSJ3 Goku (Suppressed vs Trunks)
This doesn't have anything to do with your post, but I am curious on your opinion on the Vegeta statement in the manga. I have got them translated by a Japanese translator as well. https://imgur.com/a/xdeGcE1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm

Vegeta was saying that he and Goku were almost on equal terms with those enemies in terms of raw strength, but he kept losing to them because of a key factor that he later elaborated on. He needed to master the ability of relaxing in every single moment besides the attack, thus making him use better his power. Vegeta implies this is a ability all those people he listed had, but not him and Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 30, 2023 2:59 pm

Thani wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pm Pretty much. After Goku uses SS3, Trunks says that Black still felt stronger. So Black definitely didn't go all-out against SS2 Goku. The manga is even clearer in that regard, Trunks' improved SS2 was just as strong as Goku's SS3, and he was still no match against Black.
The problem is, Trunks says Black's true power was just a little bit stronger than what he used vs SSJ2 Goku. That's a bit of a understatement if he's using like 1/4th of his power.
Torus silvè wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:21 am This doesn't have anything to do with your post, but I am curious on your opinion on the Vegeta statement in the manga. I have got them translated by a Japanese translator as well. https://imgur.com/a/xdeGcE1
Thanks, this is great news. So basically Vegeta's just saying he and Goku aren't a million times weaker than Freeza, instead of saying they're almost equals. Nice.

The fact he even mentions all these guys supports this too. No sane person would put Freeza and Gas the same sentence unless they're speaking in very broad terms.
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm Vegeta was saying that he and Goku were almost on equal terms with those enemies in terms of raw strength, but he kept losing to them because of a key factor that he later elaborated on. He needed to master the ability of relaxing in every single moment besides the attack, thus making him use better his power. Vegeta implies this is a ability all those people he listed had, but not him and Goku.
Going by that translation, he's not saying they're exactly on "equal terms", just up in the same league, which makes way more sense than saying all these guys have the same power level as them.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Torus silvè » Tue May 30, 2023 3:54 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:59 pm
Thani wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pm Pretty much. After Goku uses SS3, Trunks says that Black still felt stronger. So Black definitely didn't go all-out against SS2 Goku. The manga is even clearer in that regard, Trunks' improved SS2 was just as strong as Goku's SS3, and he was still no match against Black.
The problem is, Trunks says Black's true power was just a little bit stronger than what he used vs SSJ2 Goku. That's a bit of a understatement if he's using like 1/4th of his power.
Torus silvè wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:21 am This doesn't have anything to do with your post, but I am curious on your opinion on the Vegeta statement in the manga. I have got them translated by a Japanese translator as well. https://imgur.com/a/xdeGcE1
Thanks, this is great news. So basically Vegeta's just saying he and Goku aren't a million times weaker than Freeza, instead of saying they're almost equals. Nice.

The fact he even mentions all these guys supports this too. No sane person would put Freeza and Gas the same sentence unless they're speaking in very broad terms.
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm Vegeta was saying that he and Goku were almost on equal terms with those enemies in terms of raw strength, but he kept losing to them because of a key factor that he later elaborated on. He needed to master the ability of relaxing in every single moment besides the attack, thus making him use better his power. Vegeta implies this is a ability all those people he listed had, but not him and Goku.
Going by that translation, he's not saying they're exactly on "equal terms", just up in the same league, which makes way more sense than saying all these guys have the same power level as them.
Actually it is stated all of them Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza are all stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And these guys also have their relaxed state amp

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 30, 2023 4:07 pm

We know Moro and Jiren cannot be stronger than them. Broly is up for grabs, and Freeza is definitely above everybody.

It's a broad stroke that conversation, otherwise you have to pretend nobody ever bested Moro and that Goku hasn't gotten anywhere with his UI and is still at the same spot he was during the ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue May 30, 2023 5:30 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:07 pm We know Moro and Jiren cannot be stronger than them. Broly is up for grabs, and Freeza is definitely above everybody.

It's a broad stroke that conversation, otherwise you have to pretend nobody ever bested Moro and that Goku hasn't gotten anywhere with his UI and is still at the same spot he was during the ToP.
I think we can assume that Goku's UI wasn't working at Moro arc efficiency in the Granolah arc due to the doubt clouding his mind. You don't necessarily have to believe it but it's a good argument. Merus does say Goku's UI is supposed to be unbeatable. The ToP UI was also incomplete and lost to Jiren so that works fine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 30, 2023 5:39 pm

Torus silvè wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:54 pm Actually it is stated all of them Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza are all stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And these guys also have their relaxed state amp
But Goku straight up defeated Moro. He's not stronger than anyone.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:07 pm We know Moro and Jiren cannot be stronger than them. Broly is up for grabs, and Freeza is definitely above everybody.
To be fair, Jiren did beat Goku. He was just extremely tired afterwards.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Torus silvè » Wed May 31, 2023 3:14 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:39 pm
Torus silvè wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:54 pm Actually it is stated all of them Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza are all stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And these guys also have their relaxed state amp
But Goku straight up defeated Moro. He's not stronger than anyone.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:07 pm We know Moro and Jiren cannot be stronger than them. Broly is up for grabs, and Freeza is definitely above everybody.
To be fair, Jiren did beat Goku. He was just extremely tired afterwards.
If you recall, Planet Moro completely absorbes MUI Goku's power, the completely absorbed SSB Gokus power when they tried to power him up again. Then Moro proceeds to absorb energy from everyone on the planet for an extended time period.

Goku only defeats this Endgame Planet Moro (who absorbed all of his UI energy before which makes him Planet Moro + MUI Goku) with an amp from Uub.

Goku doesn't actually surpass Moro by himself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 31, 2023 10:54 am

Torus silvè wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:14 am If you recall, Planet Moro completely absorbes MUI Goku's power, the completely absorbed SSB Gokus power when they tried to power him up again. Then Moro proceeds to absorb energy from everyone on the planet for an extended time period.

Goku only defeats this Endgame Planet Moro (who absorbed all of his UI energy before which makes him Planet Moro + MUI Goku) with an amp from Uub.

Goku doesn't actually surpass Moro by himself.
But Moro wasn’t beating them because he was more “relaxed” and wielded his power better like Vegeta suggests. It was quite the opposite: He was stealing so much power he became a time bomb.
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