Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sat May 27, 2023 8:50 pm

Can anyone explain to me what their fundamental objection is with this limitation? I might have asked this before, but I'm genuinely curious. Even if there are other consequences, why not another one?

My biggest issue with GT isn't any of its ideas or plots. It's the execution of the fights. If nothing else changed except the quality of the fights, I think it would've done way more to lessen the issues people have with it than if the show had better plotting.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat May 27, 2023 9:27 pm

ABED wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:50 pm Can anyone explain to me what their fundamental objection is with this limitation? Even if there are others, why not another one?

My biggest issue with GT isn't any of its ideas or plots. It's the execution of the fights. If nothing else changed except the quality of the fights, I think it would've done way more to lessen the issues people have with it than if the show had better plotting.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 28, 2023 5:48 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:35 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:21 amSNIP
Zamasu's actions arent a result of Time Travel, his actions were preempted by his own beliefs and desires.
If Trunks' and Cell's time travel didn't result in the creation of an alternate timeline Zamasu, Goku Black would not have been able to team up with an alternate version of himself with Immortality.

And the actions of Black and Zamasu tread with the theme of the misuse of DBs, because they misused the DBs for selfish and cruel purposes, and they paid the price (they turned into a twisted abomination).

That's why, if Super ever wants to deal with the theme again, they have the perfect set-up for it (unlike GT). Many villains of Super misused the DBs, whether it be Sorbet for his wish to revive Frieza, Black and Zamasu for their wishes of both mortal and immortal body, Moro for his wishes of magic and freeing his terrorist friends, or Gas and Granolah for their wishes of ultimate strength at the expense of their lifespan. Super has the perfect set-up for a "Shadow Dragons" arc because most of its villains have objectively and unambiguously misused the DBs to spread terror and chaos.
Vegeta and Freeza invading Earth and Namek respectively were not a by product of misusing the Dragon Balls because neither of them got the wishes they wanted, it was the desire for the Dragon Balls not the use of them.
"Misusing; using something in the wrong way or for the wrong purpose"

Vegeta and Frieza were going to use the DBs to make themselves immortal and crush the universe for eternity as almighty tyrants. That's a misuse of the DBs. The DBs should not be used to alter the balance of strength between mortals so drastically. If wishing the entire population of planet back to life is upsetting the natural order, then wishing to become the almighty immortal ruler of the universe is also upsetting the natural order.

The fact that they didn't get their wishes is irrelevant because the crux of those conflicts is an evil-doer attacking a planet to misuse the DBs.

As such, we the audience can see very clearly how the DBs are both a gift and a burden for the earthlings. Because they attract alien invaders.

If the DBs did not exist, Vegeta and his Saiyan goons would not have attacked the Earth and destroyed an entire metropolis; Frieza and his goons would not have attacked Namek and destroyed the entire planet. Pretty much ALL the conflict in the first half of DBZ would be averted if the DBs did not exist.
Plus the issue isnt that the Dragon Balls are used for positive or negative wishes, the problem at least with how its presented in GT is that they need at least a full century to deplete the negative energy that's created within them regardless of what kind of wish is made
Which is a redundant and unneeded limitation. DBs already had clear limits; first of all, they scattered across the globe every time they are used, secondly they become inactive if the citizens of the planet they are in are not able to protect the Guardian God. The Story already placed clear limitations on the DBs, this new limitation of the negative energy was redundant and unneeded.
Dr. Casey wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 6:25 pm I like the Shadow Dragon arc well enough, but I fully agree with SupremeKai that appeal to nature is an absolute dogshit argument. "Going against nature is wrong! I can't actually cite any objective problems that it causes, and going against nature doesn't do much of anything besides alleviate unnecessary suffering, but it's wrong because... it just IS okay?!" I guess we never should have tried to create medicines or surgeries or any other therapeutic technique because going by nature your immune system is the only form of defense you're supposed to have.
This is a very good analogy. It's like saying that medicine shouldn't have been developed because the "natural order" is that people should rely only on their body's immunity system to survive illnesses and not "cheat" with man-made medicine.

Old Kai never explained what "natural order" he was referring to btw.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by novashibe » Sun May 28, 2023 6:21 am

I mean, at this point it's a completely subjective argument - whether you accept and can enjoy a story about the Dragon Balls being overused, or whether that feels like a stretch to you and you don't like the premise let alone it's execution. I think both are completely understandable positions, honestly, and I may be stating the obvious here but I don't think anyone's going to budge any further on that point. I agree with the idea that the Dragon Balls already have an inherent drawback in attracting would-be troublemakers but I don't think that it has to end there also.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Sun May 28, 2023 8:23 am

To answer the broader question, I like many of the ideas presented in the show, especially if it's a version of the end to the story. Doing another hunt for the DBs brings the story full circle and I enjoy when stories end by bringing things back to the start in some way. Then there's Baby who is someone who is out for revenge for the death of his race at the hands of the race of the protagonists. And lastly the Evil Dragons for reasons I've already stated. There's a thematic throughline through all of this - reckoning. I'm a big believer in endings needing to bring things back around to the beginning in some form or fashion.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Civic » Sun May 28, 2023 10:09 pm

I like the idea of the DBs having a negative consequence, but only because it makes me think 'huh, I hadn't considered a concept like that.' And that's why I think it doesn't fit - it doesn't feel like Toriyama's style of storytelling. The DBs have always been this plot device to help fix wrongs, drive the story, etc. and even sometimes for very vain or mundane reasons (like Bulma's use of them in DBS: Super Hero) but that's all they are. There's no sinister monkey paw aspect to them, they exist to grant wishes. They weren't created to be used so often or for petty reasons (at least how Bulma describes them at the very beginning of DB, they were more a quest for noble and adventurous souls) but that's how it's gone and it's taken on a comedic aspect on how they're used.

That feels like Dragon Ball to me. The DBs having negative consequences of overuse is a cool idea, but it doesn't gel with Dragon Ball's vibe.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am

Civic wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:09 pm I like the idea of the DBs having a negative consequence, but only because it makes me think 'huh, I hadn't considered a concept like that.' And that's why I think it doesn't fit - it doesn't feel like Toriyama's style of storytelling. The DBs have always been this plot device to help fix wrongs, drive the story, etc. and even sometimes for very vain or mundane reasons (like Bulma's use of them in DBS: Super Hero) but that's all they are. There's no sinister monkey paw aspect to them, they exist to grant wishes. They weren't created to be used so often or for petty reasons (at least how Bulma describes them at the very beginning of DB, they were more a quest for noble and adventurous souls) but that's how it's gone and it's taken on a comedic aspect on how they're used.

That feels like Dragon Ball to me. The DBs having negative consequences of overuse is a cool idea, but it doesn't gel with Dragon Ball's vibe.
Indeed, I agree.

In the Original series, when Old Kai mentioned that the overuse of DBs upset the natural order, Toriyama had that scene followed-up by a classic Toriyama gag moment where Old Kai changed his mind so that he could look at pictures of Bulma.

Toriyama did not care at all about the negative consequences and neither did the characters in his story, the story itself never takes Old Kai's warning seriously.

The Shadow Dragons arc of GT does not fit in Toriyama's type of storytelling, it tries to be way too serious and dark for Dragon Ball.

The premise of Dragon Ball is simple. These magical orbs grant whatever wish you want, period, the end. This GT invention/revisionist plotline about the idea that you have to use the DBs in a balanced and respectful way doesn't make sense and doesn't fit the tone that Toriyama set up for Dragon Ball.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 am

Civic wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:09 pm I like the idea of the DBs having a negative consequence, but only because it makes me think 'huh, I hadn't considered a concept like that.' And that's why I think it doesn't fit - it doesn't feel like Toriyama's style of storytelling. The DBs have always been this plot device to help fix wrongs, drive the story, etc. and even sometimes for very vain or mundane reasons (like Bulma's use of them in DBS: Super Hero) but that's all they are. There's no sinister monkey paw aspect to them, they exist to grant wishes. They weren't created to be used so often or for petty reasons (at least how Bulma describes them at the very beginning of DB, they were more a quest for noble and adventurous souls) but that's how it's gone and it's taken on a comedic aspect on how they're used.

That feels like Dragon Ball to me. The DBs having negative consequences of overuse is a cool idea, but it doesn't gel with Dragon Ball's vibe.
The Dragon Balls weren't there to fix problems, they were just plot devices. Sometimes they put things right, but sometimes the bad guy got their wish. That they have a cost to them now doesn't contradict the plot device aspect. If anything, it it's another example of that. Just like the scifi elements are usually just window dressing in effort to get the plot going by explaining where the antagonist comes from

That said, GT as a whole doesn't have a DB vibe which is part of its problem, but the consequences feel like they fit GT. As another forum member (I think MasenkoHa) put it, GT feels like a typical US adaptation of a beloved British show.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon May 29, 2023 7:59 am

ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 amThe Dragon Balls weren't there to fix problems, they were just plot devices. Sometimes they put things right, but sometimes the bad guy got their wish. That they have a cost to them now doesn't contradict the plot device aspect.
People being killed is a real problem, so the Dragon Balls, by their inclusion in the story are inherently and inescapably problem fixers. Yes there are risks associated with them because the eternal Dragons have no moral loyalties and can grant villains wishes (as was the case with King Piccolo regaining his youth, Freeza nearly gaining immortality and Garlic Junior gaining it), but at best it gives both the heroes and villains leeway they wouldn't otherwise have. If there were no Dragon Balls the heroes would need to accept the unfortunate fact they failed to save people from certain death, the villains would need to come to terms with mortality or the natural process of ageing, etc.

The Evil Dragon arc gives real consequences to overuse of the Dragon Balls, because with innocent deaths being a joke the heroes are more inclined to take it for granted. We see that in the Resurrection F arc in Super with the trivialization of Piccolo's death. There was no shock or remorse because the Dragon Balls were found and the heroes had an excuse for their lack of mourning. GT might feel "less Dragon Ball" because its not something Toriyama did or would write, but the same can be said for the Bardock special. Something not being the author's original intention doesn't make it any less valid, if done well its quite the contrary. My only problem is I would have liked more exploration and explanation of how the Dragon Balls just by their use accumulated negative energy, rather than "they just did", but its a great idea on paper because it honours Toriyama's approach of subverting expectations while teaching the heroes a lesson to be more responsible and not depending on the Dragon Balls to clear up their mess as they had never learned up to that point they wouldn't always be around to do that for them. Trunks comment in the Blue Water dub (which is highly accurate) after Shenron's departure that now they would need to depend on themselves to make the universe a better place and it was a big responsibility really hammered this point home.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Mon May 29, 2023 8:22 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:59 am My only problem is I would have liked more exploration and explanation of how the Dragon Balls just by their use accumulated negative energy, rather than "they just did",
I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but I don't get this point. What more are you looking for? I don't know how much more you can explain the concept that at the end of the day, no matter how detailed they get, the explanation for a fictional magical concept boils down to "they just do".

GT treats the consequences in a moralistic fashion whereas Toriyama would more likely make a point that human beings are assholes who would abuse these so f*** 'em.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by GokuHater » Mon May 29, 2023 10:43 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am
The Shadow Dragons arc of GT does not fit in Toriyama's type of storytelling, it tries to be way too serious and dark for Dragon Ball.

The premise of Dragon Ball is simple. These magical orbs grant whatever wish you want, period, the end. This GT invention/revisionist plotline about the idea that you have to use the DBs in a balanced and respectful way doesn't make sense and doesn't fit the tone that Toriyama set up for Dragon Ball.
This point I find quite farfetched coming from you to be honest :D

I mean I get your points from earlier. The Shadow Dragons are more like a boss rush mode to destroy everything instead of any type of explanation about the balls being misused or any type of equilibrium being broken.

But does it fit the tone of the story is subjective. It really isn't any darker than things we can find in Z and in my opinion fits overall DB world quite well with a big bad with transformations at the end and a few lackeys before.
I am not defending it to say it's the best thing in the world, as it clearly CLEARLY isn't but saying that it doesn't fit or is too dark, I can't agree with.

After all you're the guy who enjoys Zamasu arc and this is arguably the darkest and most depressing DB has ever got.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 29, 2023 10:47 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am
The Shadow Dragons arc of GT does not fit in Toriyama's type of storytelling, it tries to be way too serious and dark for Dragon Ball.
The same can be said about the Zamasu arc, but far more so, and it even awkwardly tries to force in some comedic bits that it just ends up giving tonal whiplash.

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Mon May 29, 2023 11:03 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:47 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am
The Shadow Dragons arc of GT does not fit in Toriyama's type of storytelling, it tries to be way too serious and dark for Dragon Ball.
The same can be said about the Zamasu arc, but far more so, and it even awkwardly tries to force in some comedic bits that it just ends up giving tonal whiplash.
I love a tonal whiplash. Like anything, it boils down to execution.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon May 29, 2023 11:15 am

ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:22 am
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:59 am My only problem is I would have liked more exploration and explanation of how the Dragon Balls just by their use accumulated negative energy, rather than "they just did",
I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but I don't get this point. What more are you looking for? I don't know how much more you can explain the concept that at the end of the day, no matter how detailed they get, the explanation for a fictional magical concept boils down to "they just do".

GT treats the consequences in a moralistic fashion whereas Toriyama would more likely make a point that human beings are assholes who would abuse these so f*** 'em.
Well as I said the eternal Dragons have no moral compass so it begs the question where is the negative energy coming from when a wish is granted, should it not follow that any energy the Dragon Balls attract would be neutral? Is it a malevolent energy field that surrounds the universe the Dragon Balls are being exposed to? Something extra like that would be a neat addition.

I feel the same way about use of the black star Dragon Balls causing the Earth to explode within a year. How? Why does the Earth begin to shake and crumble suddenly after a year? Would it not make more sense if shockwaves were caused from the balls use and the immense power exerted that caused the Earth to gradually collapse over the year?
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 29, 2023 11:24 am

ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:03 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:47 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am
The Shadow Dragons arc of GT does not fit in Toriyama's type of storytelling, it tries to be way too serious and dark for Dragon Ball.
The same can be said about the Zamasu arc, but far more so, and it even awkwardly tries to force in some comedic bits that it just ends up giving tonal whiplash.
I love a tonal whiplash. Like anything, it boils down to execution.
Sure and the execution in Zamasu arc was pretty damn terrible.

Dragon Ball is usually pretty good at balancing the two out.

The Piccolo Daimao arc plays Piccolo and his children as straight threats the comedy is in how silly their names are and Daimao's biggest fear just happens to be a cutesy electric rice cooker. Also Yajirobe is there to alleviate some tension and he's pretty much "What if Goku was a cynic and his metabolism wasn't blessed by the Gods?"

The Freeza arc is even more serious but we have the Ginyu Force to bring in some comedy. They don't detract from the stakes, it just so happens that Freeza's most powerful warriors are a bunch of goofballs who watch way too much Super Sentai.


And then we have the Zamasu arc, which plays everything in Future Trunks timeline as the darkest timeline and then

Lol Goku stops the tension and tenderness to let everyone know that he doesn't know what kissing is when he sees Trunks kiss Mai

Lol Zamasu starts crying during his speech and Vegetto is dumb founded


Lol Bulma decides to try to offer herself to Zamasu (and yes she's done that before but not in the middle of a post-apocalyptic warzone)

Dragon Ball is usually pretty organic with balancing out it's serious stuff with comedy. Watching the Zamasu arc felt like someone put in some notes "Add some comedy!" and stuff got shoehorned in

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Mon May 29, 2023 11:28 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:15 am
ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:22 am
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:59 am My only problem is I would have liked more exploration and explanation of how the Dragon Balls just by their use accumulated negative energy, rather than "they just did",
I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but I don't get this point. What more are you looking for? I don't know how much more you can explain the concept that at the end of the day, no matter how detailed they get, the explanation for a fictional magical concept boils down to "they just do".

GT treats the consequences in a moralistic fashion whereas Toriyama would more likely make a point that human beings are assholes who would abuse these so f*** 'em.
Well as I said the eternal Dragons have no moral compass so it begs the question where is the negative energy coming from when a wish is granted, should it not follow that any energy the Dragon Balls attract would be neutral? Is it a malevolent energy field that surrounds the universe the Dragon Balls are being exposed to? Something extra like that would be a neat addition.

I feel the same way about use of the black star Dragon Balls causing the Earth to explode within a year. How? Why does the Earth begin to shake and crumble suddenly after a year? Would it not make more sense if shockwaves were caused from the balls use and the immense power exerted that caused the Earth to gradually collapse over the year?
All of that boils down to "just cuz", even your hypotheticals.

Even if the Dragon weren't neutral, why would that affect the energy? Why the ethics of the wish have an effect on the kind of energy build up? More to the point, it makes about as much sense as anything else magic related. The negative energy build is simply a plot and thematic device - there are no free lunches. No matter what your intentions, if you overdo something, there is a cost. That's the sort of thing audiences take away from it, way more so than lore or exposition.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by The Monkey King » Mon May 29, 2023 11:37 am

ABED wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:50 pm My biggest issue with GT isn't any of its ideas or plots. It's the execution of the fights.
This is it really, at the end of the day GT doesn't have one stand out fight to its name, a fight scene that people still talk about and celebrate to this day like Goku vs Cell, Vegeta vs Recoome, SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu etc.

Sure it doesn't have a fight as ugly looking as DBS' Goku vs Beerus round 1 and its God awful resurrection F arc. But at the same time GT deosn't even come close to Super's best moments in the ToP.

Image

Honestly even SSJ4 Gogeta vs Omega Shenron is a pretty boring fight scene when looked at objectively
"I'm so fast my kick wasn't animated lol".

GT in general is just a boring slog to watch

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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Grimlock » Mon May 29, 2023 12:52 pm

ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 amAs another forum member (I think MasenkoHa) put it, GT feels like a typical US adaptation of a beloved British show.
What is that supposed to mean?
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by ABED » Mon May 29, 2023 1:21 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:52 pm
ABED wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 amAs another forum member (I think MasenkoHa) put it, GT feels like a typical US adaptation of a beloved British show.
What is that supposed to mean?
When a popular show from another country, in this case the UK, is brought over to the US to be adapted, far too often the nuances and reasons why the show was popular get lost, butchered, or dismissed, and thus you end up with something bland and mediocre if not outright awful.

In GT's case, because Toriyama isn't there, you have Toei adapting Toriyama's characters and so it's approximating it but lacks that extra something that made DB what it was. It lacks Toriyama's idiosyncrasies and knack for choreography.
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Re: Why exactly is everyone saying that GT has good ideas all the time?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 29, 2023 1:33 pm

I think people should come to terms with not liking something instead of claiming it doesn't make sense. Because it does, it's pretty straightforward, use something and get a reward, overdo that and you'll deal with the consequences. It's magic, logic was thrown out the window decades ago, so how come now of all times it doesn't add up?
And nothing has been contradicted, it's actually expanding upon something, you don't like it? cool. Doesn't mean 2+2=5.
I've seen this way too many times, "I don't like this, hence it doesn't make sense".

Also, like ABED said, my biggest problem is the fighting. What it ends up sticking of GT fights are the settings, like Goku and Rildo fighting at a movie theatre, Goku and Ih Shenron fighting at an amusement park, or Goku and Super 17 fighting across the world.
The conclusion of the events on the Tsufuru planet were literally ki blasts vs ki blasts, and really big ki blasts to end it. A big part of SS4 vs Baby is them being NOT fighting each other; the Super 17 arc makes Goku look like the most amateur fighter ever; and the dragons... only the last two fights are memorable. The others are just rain, clean water coming out of a pond, and a seagull saving the day. Not really a problem with THAT per se, but the final product didn't work for me.
Couple that with some really bad animation from time to time and that slimey dragon episode is just unwatchable to me.
Even the fight vs the Ice dragon got kinda dull for me, too many interrumptions, too many times Pan being used a meatshield, too many frozen Gokus. I did like the ending of that fight, it might be the one I liked the most.

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