Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Fri May 26, 2023 11:17 pm

From an in-universe perspective, if we're meant to believe that 17 has been training behind the scenes since the end of the Cell arc... then regular unfused 17 should be the same strength in both Super and GT, if not even stronger in GT from possibly training for another ~10 years.

If I recall correctly, Vegeta said that Hellfighter 17 was way stronger than the original, but in GT they probably hadn't actually seen the original 17 since the Cell arc, much less seen him fight. If he was anywhere close to that same "good match for base GT Vegeta" level, then that would line up pretty well with the DBS manga portraying 17 as roughly SS3 level (right?). But if either version of Super's 17 was going to be equivalent to Super 17 (GT) instead, then I guess it would have to be the bloated-to-SSB-level anime version.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun May 28, 2023 10:53 am

MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:19 pm So according to SDBH, Android 17 from the ToP (anime) is equal in power to Super 17 from GT. There is no real reason to take it as a fact but just for fun I wanted to see how that would scale things between Super and GT. The thing is, while anime A17 is very ambigous on his power, I have never been able to exactly guess where Super 17 stands either, as honestly its fight with Goku is dumb and out of character just for the sake of drama. Similarly, Hell Fighter 17 never did much outside of fighting Base Vegeta iirc.

Where do you guys have them? What difference would you put between the 17s and their fusion?
Where is that stated? There's a bunch of stuff from SDBH that gets taken out of context.

I can see it though. If SSJ4 Goku is supposed to be around SSJB Goku. Not exactly equals, but in the same tier.
Kaboom wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:17 pm From an in-universe perspective, if we're meant to believe that 17 has been training behind the scenes since the end of the Cell arc... then regular unfused 17 should be the same strength in both Super and GT, if not even stronger in GT from possibly training for another ~10 years.

If I recall correctly, Vegeta said that Hellfighter 17 was way stronger than the original, but in GT they probably hadn't actually seen the original 17 since the Cell arc, much less seen him fight. If he was anywhere close to that same "good match for base GT Vegeta" level, then that would line up pretty well with the DBS manga portraying 17 as roughly SS3 level (right?). But if either version of Super's 17 was going to be equivalent to Super 17 (GT) instead, then I guess it would have to be the bloated-to-SSB-level anime version.
Unfortunately, Manga Goku says Android 17 is almost as strong as himself after the ToP ends. Sounds like SSJB-level 17 was Toriyama's idea and the manga could only follow that, even if he doesn't even do anything.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Sun May 28, 2023 7:59 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:53 am
MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:19 pm So according to SDBH, Android 17 from the ToP (anime) is equal in power to Super 17 from GT. There is no real reason to take it as a fact but just for fun I wanted to see how that would scale things between Super and GT. The thing is, while anime A17 is very ambigous on his power, I have never been able to exactly guess where Super 17 stands either, as honestly its fight with Goku is dumb and out of character just for the sake of drama. Similarly, Hell Fighter 17 never did much outside of fighting Base Vegeta iirc.

Where do you guys have them? What difference would you put between the 17s and their fusion?
Where is that stated? There's a bunch of stuff from SDBH that gets taken out of context.

I can see it though. If SSJ4 Goku is supposed to be around SSJB Goku. Not exactly equals, but in the same tier.
In the arcade version of the Universe Creation saga, it's outright stated that they are both equal on their first fight, with Krillin and 18 also being present. In their second one later, Super 17 puts on a TB mask because otherwise he apparently can’t hurt 18 (in the sense he holds back and avoids attacking her) but he is still defeated by the twins (Krillin was not in the second fight, trough he shouldn't be a factor anyways).

So there is really no way to put it out of context lol It's unknown how much of a boost he gets from the mask but I can buy it not being enough to really make a difference. It may also be worth noting he was just defeated, not killed or anything. He's on the current arc too but like most characters he has literally not done anything individually.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 30, 2023 8:40 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:53 am
MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:19 pm So according to SDBH, Android 17 from the ToP (anime) is equal in power to Super 17 from GT. There is no real reason to take it as a fact but just for fun I wanted to see how that would scale things between Super and GT. The thing is, while anime A17 is very ambigous on his power, I have never been able to exactly guess where Super 17 stands either, as honestly its fight with Goku is dumb and out of character just for the sake of drama. Similarly, Hell Fighter 17 never did much outside of fighting Base Vegeta iirc.

Where do you guys have them? What difference would you put between the 17s and their fusion?
Where is that stated? There's a bunch of stuff from SDBH that gets taken out of context.

I can see it though. If SSJ4 Goku is supposed to be around SSJB Goku. Not exactly equals, but in the same tier.
Kaboom wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:17 pm From an in-universe perspective, if we're meant to believe that 17 has been training behind the scenes since the end of the Cell arc... then regular unfused 17 should be the same strength in both Super and GT, if not even stronger in GT from possibly training for another ~10 years.

If I recall correctly, Vegeta said that Hellfighter 17 was way stronger than the original, but in GT they probably hadn't actually seen the original 17 since the Cell arc, much less seen him fight. If he was anywhere close to that same "good match for base GT Vegeta" level, then that would line up pretty well with the DBS manga portraying 17 as roughly SS3 level (right?). But if either version of Super's 17 was going to be equivalent to Super 17 (GT) instead, then I guess it would have to be the bloated-to-SSB-level anime version.
Unfortunately, Manga Goku says Android 17 is almost as strong as himself after the ToP ends. Sounds like SSJB-level 17 was Toriyama's idea and the manga could only follow that, even if he doesn't even do anything.
The powers in Heroes are always changing. Nobody ever stays the same strength, and a lot of times they don't even stay in the same tier. CC Goku after he used Universal Blue was rocket launched into a new dimension of power altogether. Vegeta's Evil Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than his Blue Evolved by far. CC Android 17 is post ToP and is likely stronger than he was then and he is able to fight Masked Super 17 at about equal footing to the point Super 17 wonders how he is able to do so. The difference is more likely Super 17 is too prideful and arrogant to train ever, while 17 has been training since Cell died and I don't think the ToP being over with will stop that.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Civic » Tue May 30, 2023 9:08 pm

How strong is Majin Buu (Fat Buu/Mr Buu) after his expulsion from Kid Buu? We know when he was whole that he was strong enough to weather SSJ2 Vegeta's deathsplosion, though Goku claimed he could've killed him as a SSJ3 if he wasn't holding back.

But in DBS, Buu fights one of the wolf trio and more or less stomps him. Do we have a clear idea of his power, or is just that his ridiculous survivability combined with whatever strength he has is enough to be a threat to almost anybody?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 30, 2023 10:57 pm

Civic wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:08 pm How strong is Majin Buu (Fat Buu/Mr Buu) after his expulsion from Kid Buu? We know when he was whole that he was strong enough to weather SSJ2 Vegeta's deathsplosion, though Goku claimed he could've killed him as a SSJ3 if he wasn't holding back.

But in DBS, Buu fights one of the wolf trio and more or less stomps him. Do we have a clear idea of his power, or is just that his ridiculous survivability combined with whatever strength he has is enough to be a threat to almost anybody?
As strong as you have South Kaioshin at minus the Grand Kaioshin.

Only Bergamo is strong from the Trio of Danger. Lavander is weaker than a poisoned Super Saiyan Gohan from the Boo arc and Basil shouldn't be that far of him. He needed a power booster to compete with Boo.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 am

MisteryOne wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:59 pm In the arcade version of the Universe Creation saga, it's outright stated that they are both equal on their first fight, with Krillin and 18 also being present. In their second one later, Super 17 puts on a TB mask because otherwise he apparently can’t hurt 18 (in the sense he holds back and avoids attacking her) but he is still defeated by the twins (Krillin was not in the second fight, trough he shouldn't be a factor anyways).

So there is really no way to put it out of context lol It's unknown how much of a boost he gets from the mask but I can buy it not being enough to really make a difference. It may also be worth noting he was just defeated, not killed or anything. He's on the current arc too but like most characters he has literally not done anything individually.
That makes sense. It’s just that I’ve seen people say stuff like Super Janemba ~ Kid Boo because of a clip they’re fighting before their universe is erased (With no winner) or taking Xeno Goku vs CC Goku as a definitive GT vs DBS comparison even though Xeno Goku isn’t GT Goku. I think it’s suggested Xeno Goku and CC Goku aren’t equals in base too.
Civic wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:08 pm How strong is Majin Buu (Fat Buu/Mr Buu) after his expulsion from Kid Buu? We know when he was whole that he was strong enough to weather SSJ2 Vegeta's deathsplosion, though Goku claimed he could've killed him as a SSJ3 if he wasn't holding back.

But in DBS, Buu fights one of the wolf trio and more or less stomps him. Do we have a clear idea of his power, or is just that his ridiculous survivability combined with whatever strength he has is enough to be a threat to almost anybody?
In the context of the Boo Saga, it’s said Fat Boo’s power was split and that he lost over half of his power, but he can fight Kid Boo for a bit.

SSJ3 Goku/Kid Boo: 36
Fat Boo: 30
Evil Boo: 18
Kid Boo (Toying): 15
Good Boo: 12
SSJ2 Vegeta: 9

When he fights Basil he could be stronger since he gets enraged, but I think the Trio De Dangers is just weak. Lavender couldn’t even beat a semi rusty Base Gohan without poison. Basil is probably Boo Saga SSJ2 level.

I don’t think Good Boo has to be Dai Kaioshin + South Kaioshin since the DBS Manga establishes most of that power was dormant until the Moro Saga.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 31, 2023 11:23 am

I just assume that Fat Boo somehow got his original "between SS2 and SS3" power level back during all the self-absorption shenanigans going on. He does seem to be pretty much right back in that same tier, doing better against Pure Boo than Vegeta did but still knowing basically right away that he can't actually win.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Wed May 31, 2023 4:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 am
MisteryOne wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:59 pm In the arcade version of the Universe Creation saga, it's outright stated that they are both equal on their first fight, with Krillin and 18 also being present. In their second one later, Super 17 puts on a TB mask because otherwise he apparently can’t hurt 18 (in the sense he holds back and avoids attacking her) but he is still defeated by the twins (Krillin was not in the second fight, trough he shouldn't be a factor anyways).

So there is really no way to put it out of context lol It's unknown how much of a boost he gets from the mask but I can buy it not being enough to really make a difference. It may also be worth noting he was just defeated, not killed or anything. He's on the current arc too but like most characters he has literally not done anything individually.
That makes sense. It’s just that I’ve seen people say stuff like Super Janemba ~ Kid Boo because of a clip they’re fighting before their universe is erased (With no winner) or taking Xeno Goku vs CC Goku as a definitive GT vs DBS comparison even though Xeno Goku isn’t GT Goku. I think it’s suggested Xeno Goku and CC Goku aren’t equals in base too.
People taking the promo anime out of context are honestly a lost cause because there is no way you can try to make me take it seriously after all the inconsistencies they made in the Universal Conflict arc alone -I'm looking at Hearts trapping Jiren in base but then matching Blue CC Goku, or base Cumber being Kaioken Blue Vegetto level!- If they say Janemba was equal to Buu because of that say you may as well say Jiren was equal to Z Broly in his Legendary form since they also traded blows in the anime.

In the arcade it's said Blue CC Goku is slightly stronger than SS4 Xeno Goku, and that notion has not being challenged yet -in fact the manga implies CC Goku got somehow stronger- , we only know that UI/Vegeta's Berserk form are superior to SS4 Limitbreaker but that doesn't help at all. The Xenos are not indeed GT, as Xeno SS1 Gogeta was enough to kill GT Omega Shenron, but I don't think it has ever been shown where the base CCs stand. Until proven otherwise I still believe in what was stablised in the Prison Planet. Heroes *loves* to point out in the arcade when someone has gotten stronger, and there was not mention of anything similar in the short rematch of the Gokus.
Kaboom wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:23 am I just assume that Fat Boo somehow got his original "between SS2 and SS3" power level back during all the self-absorption shenanigans going on. He does seem to be pretty much right back in that same tier, doing better against Pure Boo than Vegeta did but still knowing basically right away that he can't actually win.
This is what I have always assumed as well. Sadly there is no real way to see how accurate it is as he has never been a real part of any major fight in the entire franchise after that (excluding the one against Moro where he was quickly replaced by the Grand Kaioshin and was just inmune to the villain's main fighting style, as well as the whole "dormant power" thing) and his regeneration and other gimmicks make it hard to judge things like the Basil fight.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:20 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:48 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 am
MisteryOne wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:59 pm In the arcade version of the Universe Creation saga, it's outright stated that they are both equal on their first fight, with Krillin and 18 also being present. In their second one later, Super 17 puts on a TB mask because otherwise he apparently can’t hurt 18 (in the sense he holds back and avoids attacking her) but he is still defeated by the twins (Krillin was not in the second fight, trough he shouldn't be a factor anyways).

So there is really no way to put it out of context lol It's unknown how much of a boost he gets from the mask but I can buy it not being enough to really make a difference. It may also be worth noting he was just defeated, not killed or anything. He's on the current arc too but like most characters he has literally not done anything individually.
That makes sense. It’s just that I’ve seen people say stuff like Super Janemba ~ Kid Boo because of a clip they’re fighting before their universe is erased (With no winner) or taking Xeno Goku vs CC Goku as a definitive GT vs DBS comparison even though Xeno Goku isn’t GT Goku. I think it’s suggested Xeno Goku and CC Goku aren’t equals in base too.
People taking the promo anime out of context are honestly a lost cause because there is no way you can try to make me take it seriously after all the inconsistencies they made in the Universal Conflict arc alone -I'm looking at Hearts trapping Jiren in base but then matching Blue CC Goku, or base Cumber being Kaioken Blue Vegetto level!- If they say Janemba was equal to Buu because of that say you may as well say Jiren was equal to Z Broly in his Legendary form since they also traded blows in the anime.

In the arcade it's said Blue CC Goku is slightly stronger than SS4 Xeno Goku, and that notion has not being challenged yet -in fact the manga implies CC Goku got somehow stronger- , we only know that UI/Vegeta's Berserk form are superior to SS4 Limitbreaker but that doesn't help at all. The Xenos are not indeed GT, as Xeno SS1 Gogeta was enough to kill GT Omega Shenron, but I don't think it has ever been shown where the base CCs stand. Until proven otherwise I still believe in what was stablised in the Prison Planet. Heroes *loves* to point out in the arcade when someone has gotten stronger, and there was not mention of anything similar in the short rematch of the Gokus.
Kaboom wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:23 am I just assume that Fat Boo somehow got his original "between SS2 and SS3" power level back during all the self-absorption shenanigans going on. He does seem to be pretty much right back in that same tier, doing better against Pure Boo than Vegeta did but still knowing basically right away that he can't actually win.
This is what I have always assumed as well. Sadly there is no real way to see how accurate it is as he has never been a real part of any major fight in the entire franchise after that (excluding the one against Moro where he was quickly replaced by the Grand Kaioshin and was just inmune to the villain's main fighting style, as well as the whole "dormant power" thing) and his regeneration and other gimmicks make it hard to judge things like the Basil fight.
They were fighting pretty equally in base and then SS4 to SSBlue in the "rematch and both were smiling" This is after Universal Blue, the Grand Priest Training, and the HTC like training they did before fighting Goku Black Xeno. Goku CC and Vegeta CC have gotten astronomically stronger, while the other two have only acquiired the SS4 limit breaker forms and assumably trained after that until we see them in the latest Arc. The entire Heroes media from anime, to manga, to arcade are all inconsistent to begin with.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:20 am

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:20 pm
MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:48 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 am

That makes sense. It’s just that I’ve seen people say stuff like Super Janemba ~ Kid Boo because of a clip they’re fighting before their universe is erased (With no winner) or taking Xeno Goku vs CC Goku as a definitive GT vs DBS comparison even though Xeno Goku isn’t GT Goku. I think it’s suggested Xeno Goku and CC Goku aren’t equals in base too.
People taking the promo anime out of context are honestly a lost cause because there is no way you can try to make me take it seriously after all the inconsistencies they made in the Universal Conflict arc alone -I'm looking at Hearts trapping Jiren in base but then matching Blue CC Goku, or base Cumber being Kaioken Blue Vegetto level!- If they say Janemba was equal to Buu because of that say you may as well say Jiren was equal to Z Broly in his Legendary form since they also traded blows in the anime.

In the arcade it's said Blue CC Goku is slightly stronger than SS4 Xeno Goku, and that notion has not being challenged yet -in fact the manga implies CC Goku got somehow stronger- , we only know that UI/Vegeta's Berserk form are superior to SS4 Limitbreaker but that doesn't help at all. The Xenos are not indeed GT, as Xeno SS1 Gogeta was enough to kill GT Omega Shenron, but I don't think it has ever been shown where the base CCs stand. Until proven otherwise I still believe in what was stablised in the Prison Planet. Heroes *loves* to point out in the arcade when someone has gotten stronger, and there was not mention of anything similar in the short rematch of the Gokus.
Kaboom wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:23 am I just assume that Fat Boo somehow got his original "between SS2 and SS3" power level back during all the self-absorption shenanigans going on. He does seem to be pretty much right back in that same tier, doing better against Pure Boo than Vegeta did but still knowing basically right away that he can't actually win.
This is what I have always assumed as well. Sadly there is no real way to see how accurate it is as he has never been a real part of any major fight in the entire franchise after that (excluding the one against Moro where he was quickly replaced by the Grand Kaioshin and was just inmune to the villain's main fighting style, as well as the whole "dormant power" thing) and his regeneration and other gimmicks make it hard to judge things like the Basil fight.
They were fighting pretty equally in base and then SS4 to SSBlue in the "rematch and both were smiling" This is after Universal Blue, the Grand Priest Training, and the HTC like training they did before fighting Goku Black Xeno. Goku CC and Vegeta CC have gotten astronomically stronger, while the other two have only acquiired the SS4 limit breaker forms and assumably trained after that until we see them in the latest Arc. The entire Heroes media from anime, to manga, to arcade are all inconsistent to begin with.
I'm not going to get into this again. They only fought in base in the anime. There is literally nothing stating CC Goku received a permanent power up after using his UT form (something that I was trying to ignore but you keep popping out as fact), in fact it was a temporary one as stated by both arcade and manga. And the HTC training was *speficially* pointed out to be just to master their newer forms. The Grand Ptiest didn't actually train Goku in the arcade either, in any way. He literally just gave him a new outfit and sent him to U11.

You keep pushing your headcanons but I have already said I stick with that the actual arcade, which is the original media, says. "They are inconsistent to begin with" is not a valid point as using that logic we can never scalate the original Toriyama manga because its adaptations are inconsistent with it, just as the SDBH manga and *promotional* anime are just adaptations of the arcade (and even then there is not a single mention of them getting "astronomically stronger").

You are free to believe and use your headcanons but trying to pass them as fact is just untrue and makes any attempt at conversation tiring. It really annoys me but if you are just keep on going with it I suppose I will just block.

Like, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing over power scaling, specially in SDBH of all things. But there is a big difference between "agree to disagree" and "no, you are incorrect because I say so, despite the material being right there and stating otherwise".
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:09 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:20 am
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:20 pm
MisteryOne wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:48 pm
People taking the promo anime out of context are honestly a lost cause because there is no way you can try to make me take it seriously after all the inconsistencies they made in the Universal Conflict arc alone -I'm looking at Hearts trapping Jiren in base but then matching Blue CC Goku, or base Cumber being Kaioken Blue Vegetto level!- If they say Janemba was equal to Buu because of that say you may as well say Jiren was equal to Z Broly in his Legendary form since they also traded blows in the anime.

In the arcade it's said Blue CC Goku is slightly stronger than SS4 Xeno Goku, and that notion has not being challenged yet -in fact the manga implies CC Goku got somehow stronger- , we only know that UI/Vegeta's Berserk form are superior to SS4 Limitbreaker but that doesn't help at all. The Xenos are not indeed GT, as Xeno SS1 Gogeta was enough to kill GT Omega Shenron, but I don't think it has ever been shown where the base CCs stand. Until proven otherwise I still believe in what was stablised in the Prison Planet. Heroes *loves* to point out in the arcade when someone has gotten stronger, and there was not mention of anything similar in the short rematch of the Gokus.


This is what I have always assumed as well. Sadly there is no real way to see how accurate it is as he has never been a real part of any major fight in the entire franchise after that (excluding the one against Moro where he was quickly replaced by the Grand Kaioshin and was just inmune to the villain's main fighting style, as well as the whole "dormant power" thing) and his regeneration and other gimmicks make it hard to judge things like the Basil fight.
They were fighting pretty equally in base and then SS4 to SSBlue in the "rematch and both were smiling" This is after Universal Blue, the Grand Priest Training, and the HTC like training they did before fighting Goku Black Xeno. Goku CC and Vegeta CC have gotten astronomically stronger, while the other two have only acquiired the SS4 limit breaker forms and assumably trained after that until we see them in the latest Arc. The entire Heroes media from anime, to manga, to arcade are all inconsistent to begin with.
I'm not going to get into this again. They only fought in base in the anime. There is literally nothing stating CC Goku received a permanent power up after using his UT form (something that I was trying to ignore but you keep popping out as fact), in fact it was a temporary one as stated by both arcade and manga. And the HTC training was *speficially* pointed out to be just to master their newer forms. The Grand Ptiest didn't actually train Goku in the arcade either, in any way. He literally just gave him a new outfit and sent him to U11.

You keep pushing your headcanons but I have already said I stick with that the actual arcade, which is the original media, says. "They are inconsistent to begin with" is not a valid point as using that logic we can never scalate the original Toriyama manga because its adaptations are inconsistent with it, just as the SDBH manga and *promotional* anime are just adaptations of the arcade (and even then there is not a single mention of them getting "astronomically stronger").

You are free to believe and use your headcanons but trying to pass them as fact is just untrue and makes any attempt at conversation tiring. It really annoys me but if you are just keep on going with it I suppose I will just block.

Like, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing over power scaling, specially in SDBH of all things. But there is a big difference between "agree to disagree" and "no, you are incorrect because I say so, despite the material being right there and stating otherwise".
I'm going to ignore your whining and point out, you actually think Grand Priest didn't train him? He just magically goes to Grand Priest and gains control of UI Sign by putting an outfit on?? Come on now. Go ahead and block me because I won't fall for your nonsense and it will just "annoy you" lol

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:04 am

Hey, some advice as this is an old feud and seemingly it's not clear yet: not everyone follows (just) the Dragon Ball Heroes anime. Expect them to place more importance over the arcade than the anime and manga, for the simple fact that the arcade is indeed the "main continuity". You are more likely to have substantial conversations about the anime in other places, or specifically in the anime thread. Otherwise you will just continue to bicker with the person you're talking to. I don't even know how one can formulate an opinion based on an anime that leaves out a lot of stuff and has things like the Dragon Ball Super characters acknowledging the movie villains, which just ends up putting the anime credibility into question, but to each their own, I guess...

Curiously, I don't see this happening in the Dragon Ball Super related threads. Even those who think Dragon Ball Super doesn't have three different continuities, it seems there is a degree of common sense preventing these kinds of bickering. I don't often see an anime viewer arguing with a manga reader here. Seemingly, they know to set some things apart. You have to approach Dragon Ball Heroes the same way, because it's the very same thing here.

I did see the previous debate, it's very intriguing the "The same people who made the Heroes anime also made GT" argument when one can just look at the credits and see that this is outright wrong. And even if you find a similar name, it may not be the very same person (I know it may come as a surprise but there are a lot of Akira Toriyamas out there, nearly all of them did not create Dragon Ball!). So you may want to stop repeatedly saying other people's arguments are "nonsense", it may (and in most cases will) backfire. Anyway...


To address it more directly: I don't remember any "rematch" between Goku and Xeno Goku. Did that happen? Was it only in the anime? If so, it's unlikely Toei will give you a straight answer on who's stronger or if they are on par with each other. I bet it got interrupted or we don't see much of it, right? That would be the second time their match is unfinished in the anime, and with no statements or anything to clarify our questions, it is impossible to determine anything. There's also the possibility Toei will not outright give a definitive answer so as to not upset fans. So they might turn out to be "equal" whenever they fight, but that would be true as far as the anime is concerned.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:21 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:09 pm
MisteryOne wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:20 am I'm not going to get into this again. They only fought in base in the anime. There is literally nothing stating CC Goku received a permanent power up after using his UT form (something that I was trying to ignore but you keep popping out as fact), in fact it was a temporary one as stated by both arcade and manga. And the HTC training was *speficially* pointed out to be just to master their newer forms. The Grand Ptiest didn't actually train Goku in the arcade either, in any way. He literally just gave him a new outfit and sent him to U11.

You keep pushing your headcanons but I have already said I stick with that the actual arcade, which is the original media, says. "They are inconsistent to begin with" is not a valid point as using that logic we can never scalate the original Toriyama manga because its adaptations are inconsistent with it, just as the SDBH manga and *promotional* anime are just adaptations of the arcade (and even then there is not a single mention of them getting "astronomically stronger").

You are free to believe and use your headcanons but trying to pass them as fact is just untrue and makes any attempt at conversation tiring. It really annoys me but if you are just keep on going with it I suppose I will just block.

Like, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing over power scaling, specially in SDBH of all things. But there is a big difference between "agree to disagree" and "no, you are incorrect because I say so, despite the material being right there and stating otherwise".
I'm going to ignore your whining and point out, you actually think Grand Priest didn't train him? He just magically goes to Grand Priest and gains control of UI Sign by putting an outfit on?? Come on now. Go ahead and block me because I won't fall for your nonsense and it will just "annoy you" lol
It is literally stated so yeah, he didn't :lol: . And "gains control of UI", you mean literally saying he doesn't control it at all to the point of losing it just by the shock of seeing Vegeta possesed (or trying to fight Cumber and losing)? Yeah, that's what you get for only seeing the anime. Do you even know how Goku got out of Prison Planet? Also really curious how you ignored all the other stuff that you made up as it doesn't have any evidence you can provide.

This is really the last time I'm bothering to reply your nonsense. If you want to discuss only the anime version cool,I'm up for it. If you are trying to again push your headcanons against the actual media, just make a favor and don't reply to me lmao Turns out the best the website can do is list "foes" which is kinda useless if it still notifies me you quoted me.
Grimlock wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:04 am To address it more directly: I don't remember any "rematch" between Goku and Xeno Goku. Did that happen? Was it only in the anime? If so, it's unlikely Toei will give you a straight answer on who's stronger or if they are on par with each other. I bet it got interrupted or we don't see much of it, right? That would be the second time their match is unfinished in the anime, and with no statements or anything to clarify our questions, it is impossible to determine anything. There's also the possibility Toei will not outright give a definitive answer so as to not upset fans. So they might turn out to be "equal" whenever they fight, but that would be true as far as the anime is concerned.
Don't want to quote the entire post to not make mine way too long but THIS. Agreed on all fronts.

And that's the funny thing too, their "rematch" is interrupted and never shows them at the same base or anything like that (unless...you count Goku blocking a random attack from a teasing Xeno Goku as them being equals, but at this point I can see people believing it lol). It's only expanded in the manga where Xeno Goku uses Limitbreaker but it's still interrupted and played for laughs as Goku breaks Yamcha's teeth by accident when he is transported to the realm of the winning teams.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:18 pm

If Xeno Goku has to resort to Super Full Power Saiyan 4: Limit Breaker then it means ever since Prison Planet saga he couldn't catch up to Goku. But, again, like you said, if it's played out for comedic purposes then even this shouldn't be given much thought.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:04 am Hey, some advice as this is an old feud and seemingly it's not clear yet: not everyone follows (just) the Dragon Ball Heroes anime. Expect them to place more importance over the arcade than the anime and manga, for the simple fact that the arcade is indeed the "main continuity". You are more likely to have substantial conversations about the anime in other places, or specifically in the anime thread. Otherwise you will just continue to bicker with the person you're talking to. I don't even know how one can formulate an opinion based on an anime that leaves out a lot of stuff and has things like the Dragon Ball Super characters acknowledging the movie villains, which just ends up putting the anime credibility into question, but to each their own, I guess...

Curiously, I don't see this happening in the Dragon Ball Super related threads. Even those who think Dragon Ball Super doesn't have three different continuities, it seems there is a degree of common sense preventing these kinds of bickering. I don't often see an anime viewer arguing with a manga reader here. Seemingly, they know to set some things apart. You have to approach Dragon Ball Heroes the same way, because it's the very same thing here.

I did see the previous debate, it's very intriguing the "The same people who made the Heroes anime also made GT" argument when one can just look at the credits and see that this is outright wrong. And even if you find a similar name, it may not be the very same person (I know it may come as a surprise but there are a lot of Akira Toriyamas out there, nearly all of them did not create Dragon Ball!). So you may want to stop repeatedly saying other people's arguments are "nonsense", it may (and in most cases will) backfire. Anyway...


To address it more directly: I don't remember any "rematch" between Goku and Xeno Goku. Did that happen? Was it only in the anime? If so, it's unlikely Toei will give you a straight answer on who's stronger or if they are on par with each other. I bet it got interrupted or we don't see much of it, right? That would be the second time their match is unfinished in the anime, and with no statements or anything to clarify our questions, it is impossible to determine anything. There's also the possibility Toei will not outright give a definitive answer so as to not upset fans. So they might turn out to be "equal" whenever they fight, but that would be true as far as the anime is concerned.
Ok, so you claimed Goku CC Blue was stronger but here you're saying they won't show who's stronger. Which means there is no answer to it. But like I said earlier, Goku gets saved by Grand Priest and later reappears wearing his uniform and having mastered UI Sign. This clearly implies he was trained by him meaning he got stronger, later he trains in a make-shift time chamber with Vegeta to master UI and for Vegeta to master Evil Blue getting even stronger when you made it seem like he wasn't trained when it's implied he was. Also, GT and Heroes Anime are both Toei Animation products, SS4 was made by Toei Animation.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:50 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmOk, so you claimed Goku CC Blue was stronger
Yes, he is. As far as the arcade is concerned.
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmbut here you're saying they won't show who's stronger.
Yes, correct. As far as the anime is concerned.
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmBut like I said earlier, Goku gets saved by Grand Priest and later reappears wearing his uniform and having mastered UI Sign. This clearly implies he was trained by him meaning he got stronger
Though we have no confirmation, I do believe that Goku trained a little bit with Daishinkan too. I never denied this, in fact, I never even addressed this. But it's possible that there was no training at all. So...
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmAlso, GT and Heroes Anime are both Toei Animation products, SS4 was made by Toei Animation.
You're not getting anywhere with that "argument".
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:50 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:50 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmOk, so you claimed Goku CC Blue was stronger
Yes, he is. As far as the arcade is concerned.
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmbut here you're saying they won't show who's stronger.
Yes, correct. As far as the anime is concerned.
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmBut like I said earlier, Goku gets saved by Grand Priest and later reappears wearing his uniform and having mastered UI Sign. This clearly implies he was trained by him meaning he got stronger
Though we have no confirmation, I do believe that Goku trained a little bit with Daishinkan too. I never denied this, in fact, I never even addressed this. But it's possible that there was no training at all. So...
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:29 pmAlso, GT and Heroes Anime are both Toei Animation products, SS4 was made by Toei Animation.
You're not getting anywhere with that "argument".
I was referring to the two animes(GT and Heroes), that Toei made. The form(SS4), that Toei made. So Toei gets to decide how to represent SS4 and it's power most. Not an arcade video-game. Again the Manga, Anime, and Arcade all three have differing versions of events. So I don't even know why you decided to whinge about it.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Jun 24, 2023 6:50 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:33 pm
Noah wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 10:42 pm This probably have been already discussed here, but since RoF (2015), Goku explains that Blue is basically Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan... that could mean SSJB = Super Saiyan God x50?

Also have anyone ever tried to do a list based on the Kili meter?
Yeah. I always took it as SSB being 50 times SSG. Rose is also said to be Black's version of SS so that fits as well with him being already a god.
Then Blue Evolution would be something around 70 times SSJG? (To be on pair with SSJB+KK)
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:08 pm

Noah wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 6:50 pm Then Blue Evolution would be something around 70 times SSJG? (To be on pair with SSJB+KK)
SSBE is equal to SSB Kaioken x20 so it would be 1,000 times SSG.

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