Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Torus silvè » Wed May 31, 2023 1:05 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:54 am
Torus silvè wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:14 am If you recall, Planet Moro completely absorbes MUI Goku's power, the completely absorbed SSB Gokus power when they tried to power him up again. Then Moro proceeds to absorb energy from everyone on the planet for an extended time period.

Goku only defeats this Endgame Planet Moro (who absorbed all of his UI energy before which makes him Planet Moro + MUI Goku) with an amp from Uub.

Goku doesn't actually surpass Moro by himself.
But Moro wasn’t beating them because he was more “relaxed” and wielded his power better like Vegeta suggests. It was quite the opposite: He was stealing so much power he became a time bomb.
Beating them is not the concern. Vegeta considers himself surpassed by Moro because he is not as strong Moro but almost as strong as him, but he also is "capable" of using this relaxed technique widening that gap.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 31, 2023 6:38 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm Vegeta was saying that he and Goku were almost on equal terms with those enemies in terms of raw strength, but he kept losing to them because of a key factor that he later elaborated on. He needed to master the ability of relaxing in every single moment besides the attack, thus making him use better his power. Vegeta implies this is a ability all those people he listed had, but not him and Goku.
Going by that translation, he's not saying they're exactly on "equal terms", just up in the same league, which makes way more sense than saying all these guys have the same power level as them.
This is not what I said though, huh? What Vegeta implies is that there was barely a difference in strength between him and those enemies in retrospect, but he was still outclassed by them because of power usage. I didn’t suggest they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta are right now, just to be clear. Vegeta is only reflecting that he needs to polish his power usage to beat the next enemy stronger than Freeza, otherwise he will lose again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 31, 2023 7:00 pm

Torus silvè wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:05 pm Beating them is not the concern. Vegeta considers himself surpassed by Moro because he is not as strong Moro but almost as strong as him, but he also is "capable" of using this relaxed technique widening that gap.
Beating them is the concern. Vegeta says he was outclassed every time. And he says he was outclassed then, not that he is still outclassed.

Look at the fights individually: You could very well say Jiren was just somewhat above Vegeta and that the relaxed technique gave him the edge (Jiren flat out mentions it when he fights SSBE Vegeta), but this certainly doesn't apply to UI Goku vs Jiren. Jiren mocked Goku for being "awfully relaxed" and drew power from emotion to close the gap.

Broly has no excuse. This guy was SSJB level in Ikari/Base. LSSJ Broly is at least 100x SSJB Goku and Vegeta. We should just pretend his name is not there.

With Moro it's a bit confusing, but maybe he is more relaxed than Sign Goku and SSJBE Vegeta. Not relaxed enough to handle full Angel powers, however. By the Granolah Saga, Goku and Vegeta have largely surpassed Jiren and Moro so they're no longer behind.

Goku vs Gas had Goku regressing to a power mentality with True UI, but Gas kept powering himself up and losing control. He couldn't even hold his own body together.
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:38 pm This is not what I said though, huh? What Vegeta implies is that there was barely a difference in strength between him and those enemies in retrospect, but he was still outclassed by them because of power usage. I didn’t suggest they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta are right now, just to be clear. Vegeta is only reflecting that he needs to polish his power usage to beat the next enemy stronger than Freeza, otherwise he will lose again.
Oh I know, I was just pointing out that Vegeta isn't saying they're equals regardles of the time. The fact there was a power gap, no matter how small, makes it easier to conciliate Vegeta's line with stuff like 73 Moro not flinching at Goku and Vegeta's attacks.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Torus silvè » Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:22 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:00 pm
Torus silvè wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:05 pm Beating them is not the concern. Vegeta considers himself surpassed by Moro because he is not as strong Moro but almost as strong as him, but he also is "capable" of using this relaxed technique widening that gap.
Beating them is the concern. Vegeta says he was outclassed every time. And he says he was outclassed then, not that he is still outclassed.

Look at the fights individually: You could very well say Jiren was just somewhat above Vegeta and that the relaxed technique gave him the edge (Jiren flat out mentions it when he fights SSBE Vegeta), but this certainly doesn't apply to UI Goku vs Jiren. Jiren mocked Goku for being "awfully relaxed" and drew power from emotion to close the gap.

Broly has no excuse. This guy was SSJB level in Ikari/Base. LSSJ Broly is at least 100x SSJB Goku and Vegeta. We should just pretend his name is not there.

With Moro it's a bit confusing, but maybe he is more relaxed than Sign Goku and SSJBE Vegeta. Not relaxed enough to handle full Angel powers, however. By the Granolah Saga, Goku and Vegeta have largely surpassed Jiren and Moro so they're no longer behind.

Goku vs Gas had Goku regressing to a power mentality with True UI, but Gas kept powering himself up and losing control. He couldn't even hold his own body together.
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:38 pm This is not what I said though, huh? What Vegeta implies is that there was barely a difference in strength between him and those enemies in retrospect, but he was still outclassed by them because of power usage. I didn’t suggest they are as strong as Goku and Vegeta are right now, just to be clear. Vegeta is only reflecting that he needs to polish his power usage to beat the next enemy stronger than Freeza, otherwise he will lose again.
Oh I know, I was just pointing out that Vegeta isn't saying they're equals regardles of the time. The fact there was a power gap, no matter how small, makes it easier to conciliate Vegeta's line with stuff like 73 Moro not flinching at Goku and Vegeta's attacks.
Vegeta states he was outclassed by everyone of them because he is talking about past events. Even Frieza is a past event so natrually he would talk of them in past tense.

If you check my original message the translator very much clarifies the translation and meaning of the statement.

"We have trained our bodies TO A POINT (right now) where they ARE (as in still) a step above us."

The translator then clarrifies that the point of Vegeta statement is to say Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza are like S tier in a S A B C tier system. And Vegeta is claiming that he and Goku have almost reached S tier. As in they are indeed weaker than everyone on the list still.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:33 am

"Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and now even Freeza. I was shown to be inferior to all these foes of ours in recent years." All past tense. The only enemy currently stronger is Freezer. As stated in the last arc and the beginning of this Super Hero arc.

Broly belongs in the list since in DBS: Broly it was stated that Broly "studied how to use his power." Toyotaro is just piggybacking off of that. Broly losing all sense of himself [mind] due to the great ape influence is different from one not weilding power properly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:42 pm

Torus silvè wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:22 am Vegeta states he was outclassed by everyone of them because he is talking about past events. Even Frieza is a past event so natrually he would talk of them in past tense.

If you check my original message the translator very much clarifies the translation and meaning of the statement.

"We have trained our bodies TO A POINT (right now) where they ARE (as in still) a step above us."

The translator then clarrifies that the point of Vegeta statement is to say Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza are like S tier in a S A B C tier system. And Vegeta is claiming that he and Goku have almost reached S tier. As in they are indeed weaker than everyone on the list still.

https://imgur.com/a/xdeGcE1
"We've been pushing our bodies to the limit. So much we're almost as good as them." --> Vegeta isn't necessarily comparing their physical strengths, he's saying the physical training is irrelevant because without the mental training they will fall behind. Viz adds a "in that aspect" that muddies things up, but the "we're almost as good as them" is most likely a general comparison, not just about physical strength.

Ki is made up of physical, mental and spiritual components, so there's no such thing as being strong while not knowing how to use your power. If you don't know how to use your power, you're weaker, period. Think of how Ginyu couldn't get past 23k in Goku's body, instead of giving 90k PL but incapable of fighting with that.

Jiren was barely a step above UI Goku in the ToP. How would Goku still be a step below after improving so much? And Planet Moro was getting his blows deflected by UI Goku before the drain affected him. If Moro was stronger, he wasn't using his power properly as Vegeta says.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:13 pm

There would be no point in Vegeta saying what set them apart was the power usage if, even after training so much all these years, Jiren was still in current Goku and Vegeta’s league. It wouldn’t matter if Vegeta could make that work out back then if Jiren was so much stronger than him anyway. Just read what Vegeta says in retrospect and his point makes sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Torus silvè » Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:25 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:42 pm
"We've been pushing our bodies to the limit. So much we're almost as good as them." --> Vegeta isn't necessarily comparing their physical strengths, he's saying the physical training is irrelevant because without the mental training they will fall behind. Viz adds a "in that aspect" that muddies things up, but the "we're almost as good as them" is most likely a general comparison, not just about physical strength.

Ki is made up of physical, mental and spiritual components, so there's no such thing as being strong while not knowing how to use your power. If you don't know how to use your power, you're weaker, period. Think of how Ginyu couldn't get past 23k in Goku's body, instead of giving 90k PL but incapable of fighting with that.

Jiren was barely a step above UI Goku in the ToP. How would Goku still be a step below after improving so much? And Planet Moro was getting his blows deflected by UI Goku before the drain affected him. If Moro was stronger, he wasn't using his power properly as Vegeta says.
[/quote]

So Herms does actually confirm that Goku and Vegeta ARE Physically on par with those 5 but they need to use their power better.

In terms of the Jiren and Moro points, it would be far more efficient if I just did this in discord. (DM me your @ for discord)

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1659 ... hED4g&s=19

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:30 pm

In any case, after reading Herms' tweets, it's surprising that Toriyama's dialogue was changed... like that's basically telling the teacher that they are wrong, so we need to correct what they wrote on the blackboard... when Toriyama supposedly can do no wrong and has the final saying.

It's even more surprising that instead of changing it for the better, now it's even more troublesome that scene. Jiren's uniqueness is now everybody's trait, even Broly's!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:00 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:30 pm In any case, after reading Herms' tweets, it's surprising that Toriyama's dialogue was changed... like that's basically telling the teacher that they are wrong, so we need to correct what they wrote on the blackboard... when Toriyama supposedly can do no wrong and has the final saying.

It's even more surprising that instead of changing it for the better, now it's even more troublesome that scene. Jiren's uniqueness is now everybody's trait, even Broly's!
I find it kind of hilarious, but nonetheless... The movie scene was definitely better than the manga, despite the weird meditation thing!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:09 pm

Toriyama himself said there are physical limits so one has to train the size of Ki [control as well]. The manga states they need to wield that Ki better. Toyotaro is just reiterating what Toriyama said. Why complicate it with various translations that won't change the true meaning of the statements anyway from the movie and manga?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:14 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:09 pm Toriyama himself said there are physical limits so one has to train the size of Ki [control as well]. The manga states they need to wield that Ki better. Toyotaro is just reiterating what Toriyama said. Why complicate it with various translations that won't change the true meaning of the statements anyway from the movie and manga?
Because fans like you or I or others will endlessly debate forever, and neither will budge, but we'll always try to pull every scrap of potential information possible in our arguments because we will never come to an agreement on how such statements and depictions are meant to be interpreted, especially because many of the different interpretations are all valid in one way or another.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:33 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:14 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:09 pm Toriyama himself said there are physical limits so one has to train the size of Ki [control as well]. The manga states they need to wield that Ki better. Toyotaro is just reiterating what Toriyama said. Why complicate it with various translations that won't change the true meaning of the statements anyway from the movie and manga?
Because fans like you or I or others will endlessly debate forever, and neither will budge, but we'll always try to pull every scrap of potential information possible in our arguments because we will never come to an agreement on how such statements and depictions are meant to be interpreted, especially because many of the different interpretations are all valid in one way or another.
But the proof is in the pudding. The spiritual aspect of relaxing increases one's power and saves stamina [the problem for Goku's UI training] as Toriyama said just as Vegeta parroted.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:07 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:33 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:14 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:09 pm Toriyama himself said there are physical limits so one has to train the size of Ki [control as well]. The manga states they need to wield that Ki better. Toyotaro is just reiterating what Toriyama said. Why complicate it with various translations that won't change the true meaning of the statements anyway from the movie and manga?
Because fans like you or I or others will endlessly debate forever, and neither will budge, but we'll always try to pull every scrap of potential information possible in our arguments because we will never come to an agreement on how such statements and depictions are meant to be interpreted, especially because many of the different interpretations are all valid in one way or another.
But the proof is in the pudding. The spiritual aspect of relaxing increases one's power and saves stamina [the problem for Goku's UI training] as Toriyama said just as Vegeta parroted.
You're missing the point. For some people, they have to be absolutely sure of their own interpretations of whatever's being said. Unless you're a fluent Japanese speaker born in that country with the specific dialect that Akira Toriyama speaks, there'll always be a margin of error of needing to make a judgment call.

But because most of us don't speak Japanese and are having translations relayed to us (including you) and need to consume and convey the information in a text-based English format, there'll always be a discrepancy in how a given quote/statement will be interpreted simply because language conventions aren't easily transmissible between totally different languages.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:33 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:14 pm
Because fans like you or I or others will endlessly debate forever, and neither will budge, but we'll always try to pull every scrap of potential information possible in our arguments because we will never come to an agreement on how such statements and depictions are meant to be interpreted, especially because many of the different interpretations are all valid in one way or another.
But the proof is in the pudding. The spiritual aspect of relaxing increases one's power and saves stamina [the problem for Goku's UI training] as Toriyama said just as Vegeta parroted.
You're missing the point. For some people, they have to be absolutely sure of their own interpretations of whatever's being said. Unless you're a fluent Japanese speaker born in that country with the specific dialect that Akira Toriyama speaks, there'll always be a margin of error of needing to make a judgment call.

But because most of us don't speak Japanese and are having translations relayed to us (including you) and need to consume and convey the information in a text-based English format, there'll always be a discrepancy in how a given quote/statement will be interpreted simply because language conventions aren't easily transmissible between totally different languages.
I understand the point. Still If those specific translations don't match up with context [Totality of the narrative] they aren't correct. For example Torus silvè posted up some translations believing all the opponents Vegeta mentioned are stronger than Goku and Vegeta still. We know this isn't factual since Goku easily smoked Moro 73 with UI. True Ultra Instinct Goku beat Gas. He had to destroy his body by doing a Saganbo suicide in order to surpass Goku. The complete opposite of what Vegeta is talking about with energy waste. Broly can't get his mind under control, etc.

Only Freeza was shown to be the strongest in the universe by literally one shotting Goku and Vegeta in their strongest forms after being healed. Based off that we all know Vegeta isn't "as good as" Freeza like that specific translation says. So we know the Viz translation is more accurate than the translations that go against the full facts. Not because we are Japanese speakers but we know the circumstances of the story set.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:58 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:33 pm

But the proof is in the pudding. The spiritual aspect of relaxing increases one's power and saves stamina [the problem for Goku's UI training] as Toriyama said just as Vegeta parroted.
You're missing the point. For some people, they have to be absolutely sure of their own interpretations of whatever's being said. Unless you're a fluent Japanese speaker born in that country with the specific dialect that Akira Toriyama speaks, there'll always be a margin of error of needing to make a judgment call.

But because most of us don't speak Japanese and are having translations relayed to us (including you) and need to consume and convey the information in a text-based English format, there'll always be a discrepancy in how a given quote/statement will be interpreted simply because language conventions aren't easily transmissible between totally different languages.
I understand the point. Still If those specific translations don't match up with context [Totality of the narrative] they aren't correct. For example Torus silvè posted up some translations believing all the opponents Vegeta mentioned are stronger than Goku and Vegeta still. We know this isn't factual since Goku easily smoked Moro 73 with UI. True Ultra Instinct Goku beat Gas. He had to destroy his body by doing a Saganbo suicide in order to surpass Goku. The complete opposite of what Vegeta is talking about with energy waste. Broly can't get his mind under control, etc.

Only Freeza was shown to be the strongest in the universe by literally one shotting Goku and Vegeta in their strongest forms after being healed. Based off that we all know Vegeta isn't "as good as" Freeza like that specific translation says. So we know the Viz translation is more accurate than the translations that go against the full facts. Not because we are Japanese speakers but we know the circumstances of the story set.
Yeah Vegeta is clearly referring to them in context of when he and Goku faced them, in the manga at least. They moved Broly to Beerus planet to keep him safe from Frieza, so even 2 years later Frieza is still above them and above Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:17 am

The way I see it is that Vegeta stated that the difference between them and his opponents in terms of sheer power was fairly minimal in the content of when he fought them. This would coincide with Vegeta's assertion of why he was meditating. He claimed that Jiren, Broly, Moro, and Gas were all opponents that they struggled against in the past despite his rigorous training. In order to remain the strongest at all times, Vegeta sought another method because what he was doing now still allowed Jiren, Broly, Moro, and Gas to remain on top when he fought them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:35 pm

Proper ki control is important. After all we saw how Frieza used it to master his Golden form while in Hell. So its a good idea to take the time to do that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:27 am

Who's the strongest movie villain, Hirudegarn, Janemba or Broly? Rule of escalation dictates Hirudegarn should be the strongest, yet Janemba forced Goku and Vegeta to fuse, and Koyama keeps claiming Broly is the strongest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:27 am

I think Hirudegan, hands down.

Broly was trashing a bunch of pre-Cell Games SS fighters, but killed none of them, he even failed to KO them for good. And lost to a Goku that had collected the remaining ki of his battered friends. I'd give more credit to Broly if he had lost to a fist holding the full power of the Z-gang... but it was just the cents they had left in their pockets what defeated him.
Without Koyama's comment, I don't think anybody would give any thought to Broly being the strongest. In fact, I think he probably meant Broly had the potential to be the strongest if Goku/Gohan/Goten hadn't killed him. But he did not die the strongest, I'm pretty sure about that.
I'd say he was between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, similar to Dabura. And in the 2nd movie, between Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Cell Games Gohan.

Janemba was easily destroyed by SS Gogeta. But he wasn't that much stronger than SS3 Goku, who managed to hold his own for a while. Something I don't think he could do against the likes of Buutenks -filler aside. I'd place Janemba between Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan.

Hirudegan oneshot SS3 Gotenks and put Ultimate Gohan to sleep... granted he ended up losing to SS3 Goku. Although he used a never-seen-before technique and if we also consider its usage in GT, it's at least a 10x booster or maybe more, considering he tried that instead of KKx10, but in any case, was enough to seriously damage Omega who claimed to have gotten 10x stronger or "maybe more"(I always assumed each dragon ball provided a 2x boost), so this technique seems to be strong enough to make me not pay much attention to who used it, as long as they are somewhat capable.
I think he is between Buutenks and Buuhan.

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