The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:12 pm

Everything happens where everything happens. I think the overtly concrete and unflinching manner of handling continuity doesn't work. It's too continuity, and therefore collapses in on itself. A form a continuity that allows for inter-connectivity between works of art without restricting the flexibility of those works of art is best.
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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Gapudo » Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:32 am

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:09 amCanon and continuity inconsistency are not mutually exclusive, otherwise the original manga would be non canon with itself.
It's not a plot hole, it's a choice

They decided to give him 5 fingers, but in the manga he has 4. IN the anime he has 5 but anime is not canon, so...
Both the manga and anime of Super include characters of the anime adaptation of Z
But Super manga doesn't have Gregory (which is anime exclusive), so...

Why did they remove Gregory but kept Piccolo with 5 fingers?

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:45 am

Gapudo wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:32 am
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:09 amCanon and continuity inconsistency are not mutually exclusive, otherwise the original manga would be non canon with itself.
It's not a plot hole, it's a choice

They decided to give him 5 fingers, but in the manga he has 4. IN the anime he has 5 but anime is not canon, so...
Both the manga and anime of Super include characters of the anime adaptation of Z
But Super manga doesn't have Gregory (which is anime exclusive), so...

Why did they remove Gregory but kept Piccolo with 5 fingers?
Because Toyotaro is drawing the manga, not Toriyama.
And Toyotaro prefers to draw Piccolo with 5 fingers.
There, that's the answer.

As far as the Super manga goes, unless you can convince me Universe 7 had 5 different Gods of Destruction, each of them linked to a Kaioshin, who all died during Majin Boo's onslaught, which makes no sense; or Beerus was linked to all of them at the same time, but miraculously didn't die/suffer any health effects, which also makes no sense; or you can stomach the fact that Trunks' timeline got fucked over for no reason, then I'm treating Super as non-canon to the manga/an alternate continuity, I'm sorry.

Regardless if they're "canon" or not, just try to enjoy things. That's what Toriyama would've wanted you to do.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:11 am

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:45 am As far as the Super manga goes, unless you can convince me Universe 7 had 5 different Gods of Destruction, each of them linked to a Kaioshin, who all died during Majin Boo's onslaught, which makes no sense;
I don't know why people are still hung up on this. Even in DBZ, we knew that one of those Kais was called "Grand Kaioshin" and was the sort of leader, while the other were Kaioshin of just one quadrant (ex. "South Kaioshin") and clearly taking orders from him/following his lead. On top of this, it was obvious that the Grand Kaioshin, despite his funny appearance, was the most powerful, and the greatest threat to Majin Buu. The Destroyer is only linked to the Grand Kaioshin, who outranks the lesser Kaioshin.

I genuinely do not understand where the confusion comes from.
or you can stomach the fact that Trunks' timeline got fucked over for no reason, then I'm treating Super as non-canon to the manga/an alternate continuity, I'm sorry.
It didn't "get fucked over for no reason". It got "fucked over" because the mortals underestimated Zamasu and the value of immortality and paid the ultimate price. It is pay-off for the villain wishing to become immortal - as you might know, the entirety of early DBZ was about preventing Vegeta and Frieza from acquiring the most terrible and dangerous of wishes: invincibility.

Anyway, if you like happy endings so much, ultimately the Future Trunks arc has a happy ending. Trunks' whole story since DBZ was about creating a peaceful world, and in the end that's what he did. He and Mai travelled to a new future, where they warned Beerus and Whis of Zamasu's betrayal and dealt with Zamasu before he ever put Project Zero Mortals into motion. Thus, creating a peaceful world where the mortals are free of Zamasu's reign of terror.

Either way, if you can accept nonsense like:

- This scientist on Earth did something to a bunch of teenagers delinquents and now they are much stronger than the Emperor of the Universe, and

- By the way, surprise suprise, there was a Galaxy-level eldritch evil entity sleeping on Earth the entire time, that no one had a clue about, surprise surprise!

Then it will be fairly simple to understand everything that happens in Super. Super is much better-planned and paced than dusty old DBZ, after all. :)

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by nineko » Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:20 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 11:55 amyou'll give yourself a headache wondering why Gohan is still a nerd who doesn't fight, why Goku still cares about Oob after fighting significantly stronger opponents than Majin Boo, why everyone was talking about the peaceful times after Boo despite Beerus threatening to destroy the earth , Freeza coming back, the Zamasu ordeal, Moro etc.
I still think Zeno and/or the Grand Minister are going to pull a selective memory wipe eventually, making everyone forget about Super-specific things such as Super Saiyan Blue. That is, if the authors want an easy way to preserve the old continuity, and, yeah, if Super is ever going to resume (something I have less and less hope of day after day).

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Gapudo » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:33 am

The true reason for Piccolo and all namekians having 5 fingers in Z / GT / Super is because 4 fingers remind people about the Yakuza that got a finger cut for having done something wrong. Plus 4 is written "shi" that means "death". These are the reasons, but it's an inconsistency with the original manga, so that's why I asked that question. Not only Kaioshins but Kaios are many too The Kaio we all know is the North Kaio IIRC

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:00 pm

nineko wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:20 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 11:55 amyou'll give yourself a headache wondering why Gohan is still a nerd who doesn't fight, why Goku still cares about Oob after fighting significantly stronger opponents than Majin Boo, why everyone was talking about the peaceful times after Boo despite Beerus threatening to destroy the earth , Freeza coming back, the Zamasu ordeal, Moro etc.
I still think Zeno and/or the Grand Minister are going to pull a selective memory wipe eventually, making everyone forget about Super-specific things such as Super Saiyan Blue. That is, if the authors want an easy way to preserve the old continuity, and, yeah, if Super is ever going to resume (something I have less and less hope of day after day).
I’ve had same this as a crack theory since the ToP. I doubt it’ll happen though.
Gapudo wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:33 am Not only Kaioshins but Kaios are many too The Kaio we all know is the North Kaio IIRC
South Kai appears in the manga and Grand Kai is mentioned too.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Gapudo » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:29 am

In the original manga we can see North Kaio only

You mean South Kaioshin

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by nineko » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:45 am

No, he's right. South Kaioh does appear in chapter 428 of the manga:
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Context: Goku is training with weights at his wrists and ankles, S.K. is not impressed at first (as seen in the frame above), but he does a 180 when he increases Goku's weights by several tons.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by dragonballhero » Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:22 am

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 11:00 am Canon doesn't matter past the original manga. Both the manga and anime of Super include characters of the anime adaptation of Z, who should logically not exist if Super were following the manga strictly. It also includes details like Mt. Paozu and follow-up to events that happened exclusively in Z, like the Bulma and the Ginyu Frog shenanigans. It's better to just treat Super as its own continuity.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 11:55 am This really is the best way to approach Super. Otherwise you'll give yourself a headache wondering why Gohan is still a nerd who doesn't fight, why Goku still cares about Oob after fighting significantly stronger opponents than Majin Boo, why everyone was talking about the peaceful times after Boo despite Beerus threatening to destroy the earth , Freeza coming back, the Zamasu ordeal, Moro etc.
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:45 am As far as the Super manga goes, unless you can convince me Universe 7 had 5 different Gods of Destruction, each of them linked to a Kaioshin, who all died during Majin Boo's onslaught, which makes no sense; or Beerus was linked to all of them at the same time, but miraculously didn't die/suffer any health effects, which also makes no sense; or you can stomach the fact that Trunks' timeline got fucked over for no reason, then I'm treating Super as non-canon to the manga/an alternate continuity, I'm sorry.

Regardless if they're "canon" or not, just try to enjoy things. That's what Toriyama would've wanted you to do.
I've especially begun treating Super as its own continuity even since the announcement of Daima and the strong implications that it occurs during a point where Battle of Gods would normally have happened. Although, I'll admit that just like Ali, the things that occur like Future Trunks' reality getting overtly screwed over for no good reason definitely helps me stomach Super as its own continuity even more.

What's more, the way Super has been changing up a lot of the cast's characters (most notably Trunks and Goten), just... doesn't really gel with their personalities in EoZ. I mean, the boys are all jazzed about helping out in world-threatening battles, but by EoZ? It's like pulling teeth to get either of them to train, let alone fight a major threat.

Barring the gods doing some sort of memory wipe/"timeline wipe" of Super's events, I just feel like there's too much that sort of contradicts EoZ at the moment.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Gapudo » Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:03 am

A "memory wipe" would be even sadder LOL

That would mean Super is utter trash

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Yuli Ban » Thu Jun 20, 2024 9:12 pm

Daima didn't start out as "made by Toriyama." It was going to be a completely original thing from Toei. They were fully willing to create new material without his involvement, so it stands to reason they probably will continue doing so. And likewise, how involved is Toriyama? Is there a threshold before something becomes "canon?" Does he have to write every word of it, or just give notes and ideas? Does it have to tie directly into the original manga, or can a spinoff also be canon? It becomes a bit of a mess determining it after a certain point because we've gotten material like that after 1995, some of which is seen by the fandom as "canon" and other which isn't.

If people are so desperate for any Toriyama-penned/assisted DB material for whatever reason, there is still his work on Dragon Ball Online, most of which got recycled into Xenoverse and Heroes but has never been "properly" adapted. It's kind of like the "hidden arc" of Toriyama's Dragon Ball, something made by the man himself but most people are unaware of. Mostly because it was just meant for an online game that never even got a wider release, and wasn't really supposed to be a big deal so using it is less "realizing Toriyama's lost creative vision" and more "scraping the bottom of the barrel just to put Made by Toriyama on the cover" (watch, they're totally going to adapt DBO into an anime now; if they do that, I give VegettoEX full permission to rename my account Gomer Pyle).

The way I see it though:
• Toriyama checked out of DB a long time ago. Before the manga even finished. He outright said that working on the Buu material sucked away his interest of doing fighting manga. The sole spark of life he felt towards DB returned not out of any genuine passion for the world and its characters, but as a reaction against an American abomination. Once that had been swept away, it was mostly a corporate decision seeing how well-beloved and profitable DB still was that drove the revival era. The man had no interest in fully returning to DB (and I do recall him announcing he was working with Masakazu Katsura on a new manga series until that got unceremoniously canceled about a week later.... due to the sudden announcement of Dragon Ball Super). In his last days, he was clearly interested in seeing Sand Land take off as well, likely just to have fun with a new world.

• Toriyama's contributions haven't all been the best either. I believe it was MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape who said it best: Dragon Ball Minus is quite arguably the single worst piece of official DB media that has ever been made. And that was literally drawn and written by Toriyama. There is no workaround like "it was a bad Hollywood adaptation" or "this was Koyama refusing to move on from Broly" or 'Toriyama was working with another artist" or anything like that. This was the man himself, start to finish. The manga followed up with Bardock's wish that Goku and Raditz "survive" to adulthood, meaning that retroactively, Toriyama's pen smashes the pre-Z era of Dragon Ball, essentially turning it into exactly the meme: the Optional Comedic Prequel. And I don't want that. Sure, quality shouldn't dictate what is and isn't canon, but my point is that haranguing about canonicity isn't always fruitful if the point is to identify the "good" parts vs the "bad" parts. I'd rather a good noncanon story than a bad canon one. I'd rather a good story that expands the world and characters or at least is fun and enjoyable over one that seems to go out of its way to cripple and undermine everything that's been established for decades "but was written by Toriyama so it's the only one that matters." I've come to realize that I tend to prefer the Dragon Ball anime canon with its filler over the original manga— that is, I prefer Hell being an ogrey-place of blood fountains, I prefer the Saiyan vs Tsufruian war, I prefer the nonsense with Garlic Jr (even if I don't like the execution of the arc itself), and so on. I'm free to do so! The only area where that becomes a problem is pinning down exactly what we know for a fact characters can and can't do, and the OG manga is always there for that, but personally I'm just here to enjoy the show, not get bogged down in the minutia.

• Toriyama chose Toyotaro as his successor. You can argue and get mad that "Toyotaro was just in the right place at the right time" or "failed his way upwards and can't even draw necks" like some do, but that is still Toriyama's choice. So if you take that there is a manga-focused DB canon, then it's still ongoing, unless

• DB might be dead/fading away. There'll likely still be new material made for it in some capacity, especially games and crossovers, but after Daima, it's fully reasonable to take the stance that DB as an IP might be getting put permanently to rest, with no new "official" series. As someone who used to fantasize about Dragon Ball AF/any new DB series, that does ache and admittedly I am not entirely sure that's even possible anymore with an IP this big— I'm sure some would love it to still be the 1990s-on-back where media properties came and went and died and inspired new creators, but that simply isn't the case in the internet age where everything is essentially evergreen whether you want it to be or not (there are literally revivals/fan projects/reboots of properties so long-passed and obscure that you'd wonder "all the people who consumed the original have literally died of old age, who even wants this?" and the answer is "lol, here's a new installment", you just have to kind of adapt to the shifting forever-fluid nature of humanity's metacultural nature now). But let's just say that it IS true and Daima is the last major piece of DB animation that isn't some promotional tie-in webseries like Heroes. Well, wrap it up, we had our fun, let's move on with our own things. Literally no more reason to worry about what is and isn't canon, period.

• Conversely, DB might be expanding. God only knows what Shueisha and Toei might get up to, especially once One Piece ends. Toyotaro is a very different person from Toriyama (I mean hell, the man has multiple social media accounts on which he's fairly active; Toriyama, as far as I'm aware, had an email and that's literally it, and there's barely any images of the man after the 90s). He might be down with a splintering of the IP for all we know, like how the burgers do it with our comics; get a license from Bird Studios, follow their mandates and rules, and you too can make official DB stories! (I can only imagine) It's like how with DC Comics, how do you determine what is "canon" with Superman or Batman? The original creators are long dead, but we still take new stories as "canon," right? Even if some contradict each other or are set in alternate timelines and universes. That could be DB's fate. You're a dedicated fan who wants to make a timeline where the old-school martial artistry never ended and the heroes went more to fight against demons, apparitions, devil-gods, mazoku, and yokai instead of cyborgs, androids, and aliens? You want a timeline where Goku marries Bejita? You want a timeline where Muten Roshi took on Mr. Satan as a student?? Are you like me, a hopeless simp for Saiyanesses and want your fem-Saiyajin insert to do something or another??? Well, good luck, that might be where Toei takes it. We have no idea. Everything is fuzzy and unclear right now.

TLDR: Just take it easy
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