The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[daniel1]

Why is anime filler and the anime itself having more weight than the actual manga having Super Buu turn into Buff Buu and the guys saying he's getting stronger?

I never made this claim. I said the anime has more weight than a website post.

and no, it wasn't about Kid Buu, it was about the Buff one.

Correct, and importantly, they never said otherwise when he finished transforming.

The reaction to Kid Buu was "hey, now we can take him" "sure thing"... This is as direct as it gets.
Followed up later with "fuck potara, I'll fuck him up myself"... followed up with "I just need to power up fully and he's toasted".

The Dragon Team, and especially Vegeta, very frequently underestimate their opponents based purely on their physical appearances, and this is after the sensing of ki is well-established.

But if that wasn't enough, Akira had Kibito-Shin say that it was the Dai who lowered his power and made him "good". Not both, not the other Kaioshin but the fat one, not even said in an ambiguous way to leave room for this type of interpretation, no: the Dai Kaio Shin did it.

This is your interpretation. All that's said is Dai Kaioshin did, nothing is said about whether the Southern Kaioshin strengthened or weakened him in the manga. Dabura is the one that gives an important clue relevant to that.

Even Koyama admitted Buuhan was the strongest Buu.

He clarified this statement a year later to say it's his personal opinion and that he believes that Toriyama thinks Kid Buu is the strongest.

[Koitsukai]

The Dragon Team, and especially Vegeta, very frequently underestimate their opponents based purely on their physical appearances, and this is after the sensing of ki is well-established.

Characters do not exist, they are vessels for the author to speak their mind. Three times the author had his characters say/imply SS3 is enough for Kid Buu. When he appeared, right before summoning him, and after fighting him. The miscalculation was about Goku's SS3 form, not Buu's power.

This is your interpretation. All that's said is Dai Kaioshin did, nothing is said about whether the Southern Kaioshin strengthened or weakened him in the manga. Dabura is the one that gives an important clue relevant to that.

That's the thing, it isn't my interpretation, it's the only interpretation possible. I'm not sure about your knowledge on how narrative works, but things don't happen or are said just because, "he didn't say it wasn't Xmas, so it's Xmas..." . Yeah, no.
If something is omitted then it's not it. Absence of evidence is not evidence.
This isn't a passage of the bible where things might have happened differently than what is being told, things are what the author tells us. That was his full answer.
Dabura had never even met Majin Buu, his opinion is really moot. Sure, characters aren't real and say what the author wants them to... that's why the author said it was the Lardo and nobody else(and had a character that had met Buu back then do that, and not, say, Dende), and why three times the saiyans confirm they can take Buu.

There isn't much more I can say about this, the author has characters say WHO and WHEN Buu's power and nature were modified. It's so clear, this debate makes no sense.

[daniel1]

Three times the author had his characters say/imply SS3 is enough for Kid Buu.

I never wrote otherwise. We have no reason to disbelieve what Goku and Vegeta said about SSJ3. Goku was simply the strongest of the Dragon Team, stronger than even Gohan.

I'm not sure about your knowledge on how narrative works, but things don't happen or are said just because, "he didn't say it wasn't Xmas, so it's Xmas..." . Yeah, no.
If something is omitted then it's not it. Absence of evidence is not evidence.
This isn't a passage of the bible where things might have happened differently than what is being told, things are what the author tells us. That was his full answer.
Dabura had never even met Majin Buu, his opinion is really moot.

This isn't a good argument and is also clearly untrue. First you say that characters are vessels for the author to speak, and then you don't acknowledge the conversation Dabura and Babidi were having about the exact energy they need. After Dabura says that, Babidi says, "Yeah... They might give us all the energy we need!" He knows that Dabura is speaking the truth. Dabura and Babidi both knew exactly what ki they needed to revive Majin Buu. They even had devices for harvesting the correct ki. (Although, Dragon Ball Daima may reveal something new in this regard because it spoke of Majin Buu a bunch.) Later we find out that Dai Kaioshin weakened Majin Buu. Now, I am not saying this is definite. I am saying it is highly probable that the Southern Kaioshin also weakened Majin Buu based on these two facts that we know about him - that the Dai Kaioshin weakened him and that he could not use the Eastern Kaioshin's ki.

and why three times the saiyans confirm they can take Buu.

Yes, and they were wrong. Again, there are many examples of the Dragon Team underestimating their opponents purely based on their physical appearances. It happens with pretty much every villain reveal. Vegeta is especially infamous for this.

There isn't much more I can say about this, the author has characters say WHO and WHEN Buu's power and nature were modified. It's so clear, this debate makes no sense.

Right, exactly. The evidence for Kid Buu is overwhelming. It does not make sense that this debate has persisted for so long.

[Hugo Boss]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I quote that exact source in my article. So yes I was exaggerating about "no" proof. However, I don't find a single website, and one that is using the anime as a source to be convincing for two reasons. The first is that the anime is explicitly clear that Kid Buu is the strongest form, and the anime has more credence than the website. We know the website is using the anime because it's showing a fight that is anime filler. The second reason is that Dabura stated that they could not use the Eastern Kaioshin or Kibito's ki to resurrect Majin Buu. We know that the Dai Kaioshin reduced Majin Buu's power and it stands to reason that the other Shin-jin do as well, or there would have been no reason they couldn't have used their ki. For these reasons, I find it more likely than not that the Southern Kaioshin actually reduced Kid Buu's power as well.

Well, the official website (using elements from both manga and anime) still indicates South Kaioshin’s absorption increased Buu’s power. This isn’t contradicted in the manga; in fact, Shin states South Kaioshin was “the burliest and strongest,” which aligns with the idea of Kid Buu losing power when South Kaioshin was removed. Debates on canon sources need to consider all available official information, not just controversial anime filler scenes (when Kid Buu was implied to be in a league of his own).

About Shin-jin weakening Buu, Dai Kaioshin is the only Kai known to weaken Buu through absorption, specifically by calming his nature. This property is unique to Dai Kaioshin, not implied to apply to other Supreme Kais. In fact, absorbing South Kaioshin (a powerful warrior) logically added strength rather than reducing it, a point backed by his portrayal as the most formidable Kai physically. Dabra’s comment simply reflects that Shin and Kibito lack sufficient power to revive Buu. It doesn’t imply that any Kai absorbed would lower Buu’s strength.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Hypothetical 5th Form Namek Frieza runs a Android saga gauntlet

1.SS Trunks Debut
2. SS Yardrat Goku
3. Android 19/20
4. Sick SS Goku
5. Piccolo Android saga
6. SS Trunks Android saga
7. SS Goku Android saga FP
8. SS Vegeta Android saga

Does he clear these savage saiyan apes?

[Peach]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I quote that exact source in my article. So yes I was exaggerating about "no" proof. However, I don't find a single website, and one that is using the anime as a source to be convincing for two reasons. The first is that the anime is explicitly clear that Kid Buu is the strongest form, and the anime has more credence than the website. We know the website is using the anime because it's showing a fight that is anime filler. The second reason is that Dabura stated that they could not use the Eastern Kaioshin or Kibito's ki to resurrect Majin Buu. We know that the Dai Kaioshin reduced Majin Buu's power and it stands to reason that the other Shin-jin do as well, or there would have been no reason they couldn't have used their ki. For these reasons, I find it more likely than not that the Southern Kaioshin actually reduced Kid Buu's power as well.

Well, the official website (using elements from both manga and anime) still indicates South Kaioshin’s absorption increased Buu’s power. This isn’t contradicted in the manga; in fact, Shin states South Kaioshin was “the burliest and strongest,” which aligns with the idea of Kid Buu losing power when South Kaioshin was removed. Debates on canon sources need to consider all available official information, not just controversial anime filler scenes (when Kid Buu was implied to be in a league of his own).

About Shin-jin weakening Buu, Dai Kaioshin is the only Kai known to weaken Buu through absorption, specifically by calming his nature. This property is unique to Dai Kaioshin, not implied to apply to other Supreme Kais. In fact, absorbing South Kaioshin (a powerful warrior) logically added strength rather than reducing it, a point backed by his portrayal as the most formidable Kai physically. Dabra’s comment simply reflects that Shin and Kibito lack sufficient power to revive Buu. It doesn’t imply that any Kai absorbed would lower Buu’s strength.

He sure quieted down after you brought up an official source.

Buuhan > Buutenks > Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu (Pre-Separation) > Grey Buu >= Fat Buu (Post-Separation)

I have no reason to believe otherwise.

[MisteryOne]

I can't believe it's 2024 and people are still doing mental gymnastics about who is the strongest Buu when the manga is so obvious about it. If you really need to use as a source stuff outside of it to prove your point, that should say everything about how you are grasping at straws.

It's also very funny to claim Dragonball is a simple story (and it is) then write essays trying to argue the characters of the manga are wrong because an outside force said so. Pretending you have found the holy grail and that you ended a decades long debate because you looked at more sources without having critical thinking on whatever they should even be considered (seriously, videogames? Trading cards? The Cardass series over here had ChiChi being stronger than Frieza and Cell, is she now? Normal Super Buu was also the strongest in the entire game period, above Vegetto...) is also not only pretentious but absolute nonsense. You are not actually making a point, you are just reading a random compilation.

A direct hit from Spike The Devil Man's Devilmite beam vs. Beerus

This one is interesting because we are potentially getting into moral issues, but most of Toriyama's characters do have some kind of bad aspect to it, that's what the entire Oolong and Bulma dynamic was built on.

Logically speaking, if Beerus was choosen by someone as neutral as Whis, he should be good at his job and not be good or evil. He should just destroy things to keep the balance. And Beerus really doesn't seem to care about morality when he lets Frieza run around and even use him. However, come the ToP arc, it turns out he really *is* bad at his job. We are never told outright why, but you probably need to consider his long naps and the petty reasons he can destroy a planet (and zero coordination with the Kaioshins who only fear him).

Considering Devilman was surprised his attack didn't work on a child, I think the implication really was Toriyama saying "most people have evil on their heart by default" and while Beerus is doing his job, he does take pleasure from it and you could potentially argue his actions could be considered evil by some. Imagine if someone destroying your planet, wiping out civilization completely, because he didn't get to eat pudding. Would you argue they are completely good?

tdlr: it may not be as effective as against Frieza and knowing modern DB maybe there would be some bs excuse like "it doesn't work on gods" but I do think it would take Beerus out.

Hypothetical 5th Form Namek Frieza runs a Android saga gauntlet

1.SS Trunks Debut
2. SS Yardrat Goku
3. Android 19/20
4. Sick SS Goku
5. Piccolo Android saga
6. SS Trunks Android saga
7. SS Goku Android saga FP
8. SS Vegeta Android saga

Does he clear these savage saiyan apes?

Honestly, I have never seen Cooler's 5th form as a big power increase, as he was still beaten up badly by SS just after the Namek arc. Definetly not as big as Frieza's other form increases. I don't think he is beating Piccolo.

edit: oh, you mean Android saga before Cell don't you? Piccolo is not such a big deal then. It's hard to say given how the three year gap apparently boosted anyone but Vegeta. I don't think he is beating neither him or Goku.

[Gogetason]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I have another question for you. What if one of Akiras editers or anyone that worked with akira was to be interviewed and asked which buu was stronger in the manga super buu or kid buu, and they said something like "kid buu obviously thats why its clearly stated hes the most troublesome one " what would be your response then?

I'm genuinely curious on whether you'd criticize akiras writing, call it a retcon, or just accept you were overthinking with a manga aimed at children.

[MisteryOne]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I have another question for you. What if one of Akiras editers or anyone that worked with akira was to be interviewed and asked which buu was stronger in the manga super buu or kid buu, and they said something like "kid buu obviously thats why its clearly stated hes the most troublesome one " what would be your response then?

I'm genuinely curious on whether you'd criticize akiras writing, call it a retcon, or just accept you were overthinking with a manga aimed at children.

This is such a weird question. The opinion or other people or even Toriyama himself knwoing his own self-admited forgetfulness, years after the fact, don't change the story of the original manga.

This is like seriously asking someone to accept all of Toriyama's 2014 claims in interviews despite them being obvious retcons. The manga clearly says the relationship between Babiddi and Bobiddi and how the later created Buu. Statements made years later that contradict that don't change the manga. (Trough even then, this would at least be Toriyama himself, not a random person who helped him)

It's also ironic given Koyama, someone on the anime side, already made a statement about Buuhan despite the anime claiming Kid Buu was the strongest. But guess what? As he said himself, it's an opinion. His words contradicted the anime. Those people are not Toriyama back then or the manga itself. They will never be. Editors are not even always right by virtue of being editors. That's not their job.

But seriously, the fact that we are even talking about hypotheticals to begin with says everything. Use your own logic on yourself. How would you react if they said "clearly it was Buuhan, that's why it was said by the characters Buu got weaker afterwards and they could handle him"? This feels like such a poor attempt at a "gotcha" question. And the irony of saying someone else is overthinking when the reason this debate even exists is because of the adaptation to begin with...

[Peach]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I have another question for you. What if one of Akiras editers or anyone that worked with akira was to be interviewed and asked which buu was stronger in the manga super buu or kid buu, and they said something like "kid buu obviously thats why its clearly stated hes the most troublesome one " what would be your response then?

I'm genuinely curious on whether you'd criticize akiras writing, call it a retcon, or just accept you were overthinking with a manga aimed at children.

This is such a weird question. The opinion or other people or even Toriyama himself knwoing his own self-admited forgetfulness, years after the fact, don't change the story of the original manga.

This is like seriously asking someone to accept all of Toriyama's 2014 claims in interviews despite them being obvious retcons. The manga clearly says the relationship between Babiddi and Bobiddi and how the later created Buu. Statements made years later that contradict that don't change the manga. (Trough even then, this would at least be Toriyama himself, not a random person who helped him)

It's also ironic given Koyama, someone on the anime side, already made a statement about Buuhan despite the anime claiming Kid Buu was the strongest. But guess what? As he said himself, it's an opinion. His words contradicted the anime. Those people are not Toriyama back then or the manga itself. They will never be. Editors are not even always right by virtue of being editors. That's not their job.

But seriously, the fact that we are even talking about hypotheticals to begin with says everything. Use your own logic on yourself. How would you react if they said "clearly it was Buuhan, that's why it was said by the characters Buu got weaker afterwards and they could handle him"? This feels like such a poor attempt at a "gotcha" question. And the irony of saying someone else is overthinking when the reason this debate even exists is because of the adaptation to begin with...

Whose side are you on with the Buu question? Is Buuhan, Buuttenks, and Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed) stronger than Kid Buu in your mind? Or do you believe the anime that Kid Buu is stronger?









To all posters-
Super Buu (Base) vs. Kid Buu
Buff Buu vs. Kid Buu
Buuttenks vs. Kid Buu
Buuhan vs. Kid Buu
Fat Buu (Pre-Separation) vs. Kid Buu

[Gogetason]

This is such a weird question. The opinion or other people or even Toriyama himself knwoing his own self-admited forgetfulness, years after the fact, don't change the story of the original manga.

This is like seriously asking someone to accept all of Toriyama's 2014 claims in interviews despite them being obvious retcons. The manga clearly says the relationship between Babiddi and Bobiddi and how the later created Buu. Statements made years later that contradict that don't change the manga. (Trough even then, this would at least be Toriyama himself, not a random person who helped him)

It's also ironic given Koyama, someone on the anime side, already made a statement about Buuhan despite the anime claiming Kid Buu was the strongest. But guess what? As he said himself, it's an opinion. His words contradicted the anime. Those people are not Toriyama back then or the manga itself. They will never be. Editors are not even always right by virtue of being editors. That's not their job.

But seriously, the fact that we are even talking about hypotheticals to begin with says everything. Use your own logic on yourself. How would you react if they said "clearly it was Buuhan, that's why it was said by the characters Buu got weaker afterwards and they could handle him"? This feels like such a poor attempt at a "gotcha" question. And the irony of saying someone else is overthinking when the reason this debate even exists is because of the adaptation to begin with...

I dont know why you mention Toriyama being forgetfull and what not about the editors as though youre trying to discredit him and his team. At the end of the day they are the ones that know the truth obviously because they all worked closely on the manga. If akira or the editors say this or that then its their word over any fans regardless of their intentions or reputation. You say use logic but ignore the obvious fact that the manga is filled with contradictions and ambiguity. Why they're are so many debates. Which is why people always look to extraneous statements from credible sources. You just need to use discernment to know what is a retcon or not; if it blatantly contradicts statements in the manga then its a retcon if it doesnt then its not.

And when is it even stated in the anime that kid buu is stronger than buuhan? If I remember right its stated kid buu is the strongest majin buu which I admit is slightly ambiguous. But its obvious if you follow the narrative, that they are talking about the strongest between the 3 discrete versions of buu. Good/fat buu, evil/gray buu and kid buu; They are only following the dbz logic that if someones is the most dangerous then they are the strongest. But its only between the 3 discrete buus.

To all posters-
Super Buu (Base) vs. Kid Buu
Buff Buu vs. Kid Buu
Buuttenks vs. Kid Buu
Buuhan vs. Kid Buu
Fat Buu (Pre-Separation) vs. Kid Buu

Buuhan>Buutenks>Kid buu> buff buu>super buu>fat buu

[Koitsukai]

Super Buu (Base) vs. Kid Buu
Buff Buu vs. Kid Buu
Buuttenks vs. Kid Buu
Buuhan vs. Kid Buu
Fat Buu (Pre-Separation) vs. Kid Buu

1- Super Buu does to Kid Buu what Kid Buu did to Mr. Buu. Soon enough Kid Buu's regen won't keep up with Super Buu and is destroyed or turned into candy.

2- This one is even worse, Super Buu was more cunning and laid back, Buff Buu is a tank, as mindless as Kid Buu but on steroids. Easy stomp.

3- Buutenks doesn't even break a sweat to tame Kid Buu. The planet probably is blown up because Buutenks likes the cat and mouse game, Kid Buu would lose his temper and blow everything up. Even so, Buutenks would regen faster and erase him for good. That if he doesn't foresee Kid Buu being a ticking timebomb and does something abou it.

4- I see a similar scenario to Buutenks'. Buuhan probably plays with his food more than Gotenks due to being part Gohan. Kid Buu can't do shit to Buuhan, and most likely ends up turned into chocolate.

5- Kid Buu is not just stronger but more agile and agressive, he'd definitely take the lead and dictate how it goes. I'd say it's the same outcome seen in the main continuity but with "Majin Buu" lasting a little longer and Kid Buu being less of showboat.
Fat Buu's only chance is to literally blow off some steam, split and hope that the Grey Buu teams up with him to fight off Kid Buu.

[Hellspawn28]

Glorio vs. Semi Perfect Cell

Based on what we know, who wins?

[Hugo Boss]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I have another question for you. What if one of Akiras editers or anyone that worked with akira was to be interviewed and asked which buu was stronger in the manga super buu or kid buu, and they said something like "kid buu obviously thats why its clearly stated hes the most troublesome one " what would be your response then?

I'm genuinely curious on whether you'd criticize akiras writing, call it a retcon, or just accept you were overthinking with a manga aimed at children.

If an editor or someone working with Toriyama confirmed Kid Buu as ‘the strongest’ only for this particular reason, I’d consider it an official stance, but not necessarily definitive. ‘Most troublesome’ hardly always means ‘strongest’. It’s a subjective projection.

That being said, Dragon Ball has many intentionally open-ended elements, so I’d view it as a matter of interpretation rather than something I overthought or overlooked.

[Gogetason]

If an editor or someone working with Toriyama confirmed Kid Buu as ‘the strongest’ only for this particular reason, I’d consider it an official stance, but not necessarily definitive. ‘Most troublesome’ hardly always means ‘strongest’. It’s a subjective projection.

That being said, Dragon Ball has many intentionally open-ended elements, so I’d view it as a matter of interpretation rather than something I overthought or overlooked.

It doesnt always mean most strongest outside of dbz but inside dbz its most definitely is like 98% of the time especially in this case when considering the only difference between the buus apart from appearance is their mentality and power. If we exclude power, then smart>crazy(but kidbuu isnt actually labeled as crazy but pure evil) in terms of danger always. Like for example, you have a smart but evil mma fighter that wants to kill everyone and a psychopath mma fighter that enjoys suffering, both equally skilled who would be more dangerous.Obviously the smart one, right?

Akira made it very clear in the quote who the strongest and people overthink and twist the meaning of words to fit what they think is logical.
Look at the quote again:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Let me ask you a couple more questions:

1/Who do you think is stronger buff buu or super buu?
2/Do you think Buff buu is pure evil? or just as evil as super buu?
3/Did they say kid buu is crazy, unpredictable or pure evil?
4/ Again why do you think Akira used the phrase "Most troublesome" instead of strongest? is it not because most troublesome encompasses both properties such as power and evilness while strongest only implies power? Do you think its right to exclude the property power from the most troublesome assessment in a anime that focuses on power?

1- Super Buu does to Kid Buu what Kid Buu did to Mr. Buu. Soon enough Kid Buu's regen won't keep up with Super Buu and is destroyed or turned into candy.

2- This one is even worse, Super Buu was more cunning and laid back, Buff Buu is a tank, as mindless as Kid Buu but on steroids. Easy stomp.

Looks like our convo was removed. Did you see my last response?

[Hugo Boss]

It’s true ‘troublesome’ could be used in a way that overlaps with strength, but I still see it as nuanced in this case. Elder Kaioshin highlights Kid Buu’s uncontrollable nature, same way he highlights Saiyans’ stubbornness with the same word. He is not implying they are strong in that sentence, only that they are a pain to deal with. Teleportation and Babidi’s magic are also described as troublesome, despite they obviously not representing strength level.

Here’s how I see it regarding each of your questions:

1. Buff Buu vs. Super Buu: Buff Buu was physically stronger, but Super Buu had displayed greater intelligence and tactical skill, and his body isn’t as heavy.

2. Evil Nature of Buff Buu: Not as “evil itself” as Kid Buu.

3. Kid Buu isn’t labeled as crazy; instead, “pure evil”, less about calculation and more about unrestrained chaos. Unpredictable, uncontrollable seems more fit.

4. I believe Toriyama used “most troublesome” to capture Kid Buu’s destructive instincts and unpredictability, making him a unique threat, though not necessarily the strongest form of Buu.

[Gogetason]

It’s true ‘troublesome’ could be used in a way that overlaps with strength, but I still see it as nuanced in this case. Elder Kaioshin highlights Kid Buu’s uncontrollable nature, same way he highlights Saiyans’ stubbornness with the same word. He is not implying they are strong in that sentence, only that they are a pain to deal with. Teleportation and Babidi’s magic are also described as troublesome, despite they obviously not representing strength level.

Here’s how I see it regarding each of your questions:

1. Buff Buu vs. Super Buu: Buff Buu was physically stronger, but Super Buu had displayed greater intelligence and tactical skill, and his body isn’t as heavy.

2. Evil Nature of Buff Buu: Not as “evil itself” as Kid Buu.

3. Kid Buu isn’t labeled as crazy; instead, “pure evil”, less about calculation and more about unrestrained chaos. Unpredictable, uncontrollable seems more fit.

4. I believe Toriyama used “most troublesome” to capture Kid Buu’s destructive instincts and unpredictability, making him a unique threat, though not necessarily the strongest form of Buu.

I'm not going to lie you do make a strong point with the first part of your response. But:

1/ Youre going off the anime its never shown whether buff buu would be hindered by his huge body, and having a huge body doesnt always mean they became slower, look at yokan. And its literally stated by goku and vegeta that his power increased when changing to buff buu:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Unless you believe goku was just making a guess based on his muscle growth? Add to the fact they cant properly sense buus ki. Which makes it plausible.

2/So you think the south kai also lessen buus evilness despite it being stated buu only became controllable after absorbing the dia kiaoshin?and wouldnt that be headcannon?

3/Wouldnt it be more of an exaggeration to say hes unpredictable or rather a misuse of the word unpredictable considering its obvious he'll do evil since hes pureevil or evil itself? also considering it was never a factor mentioned or even implied by the kais?

[Hugo Boss]

Appreciate the acknowledgment!

Let’s look at your points:

1. You’re right; manga doesn’t explicitly show Buff Buu as slower. Goku and Vegeta did note a power increase, and it’s possible they sensed it accurately, though they’ve misread Buu’s energy before. Still, power-focused forms are usually accompanied by ki’s increase, which causes muscle mass to increase dramatically if the body can’t properly contain it. I guess it’s possible the same applies to him, but this is definitely speculative.

2. My take is that South Supreme Kai may have affected Buu’s disposition slightly. The Great Supreme Kai made him “controllable”, but South likely influenced his nature, even if less significantly.

3. “Unpredictable” here relates to Kid Buu’s destructive behavior. His lack of restraint makes his actions difficult to foresee, which is dangerous even for those aware of his nature.

[Koitsukai]

Looks like our convo was removed. Did you see my last response?

I did, I assume you weren't able to see mine. I don't remember much of what I said, but it wasn't that far off Hugo's response.

We don't know much about Buff Buu, aside of a 45 second filler scene, so his speed, personality or even if he can speak is just our own headcanon. I'm in no position to call Buff Buu mindless, evil, fun or having a sweet tooth.

About the most troublesome quote, re-reading the manga, Shin never calls him THAT, I'm assuming this is a sentence said by the author and/or magazines after the fact, which are still valid and I agree with it.
So, why Buff Buu is being left out when he is Kid Buu on steroids? you have a point, Buff Buu should be held in higher regard than Kid Buu, but he isn't, probably because he wasn't as important or didn't play a major role. He is a two-panel afterthought.

Buff Buu could've lost some of Kid Buu's purity, not to the point where he is controllable or weaker like after Lardo, but at least to be not as pure, unadultered evil like the original one, which is what scares Shin. Kid Buu is untainted, Buff Buu is tainted with external factors.

[Gogetason]

Appreciate the acknowledgment!

Let’s look at your points:

1. You’re right; manga doesn’t explicitly show Buff Buu as slower. Goku and Vegeta did note a power increase, and it’s possible they sensed it accurately, though they’ve misread Buu’s energy before. Still, power-focused forms are usually accompanied by ki’s increase, which causes muscle mass to increase dramatically if the body can’t properly contain it. I guess it’s possible the same applies to him, but this is definitely speculative.

2. My take is that South Supreme Kai may have affected Buu’s disposition slightly. The Great Supreme Kai made him “controllable”, but South likely influenced his nature, even if less significantly.

3. “Unpredictable” here relates to Kid Buu’s destructive behavior. His lack of restraint makes his actions difficult to foresee, which is dangerous even for those aware of his nature.

2/ Thats veers in the direction of conjecture/headcannon wouldnt it be better to deduce base on the quote that only the dia kaioshin had that effect? because based on the quote buu with south kai absorbed was still pure evil/uncontrollable, that apparently did not change until the dai kioashin was absorbed; No where is it said the south kai made him less evil.

3/As I said I dont think unpredictable is a fitting description for kid buu. Its more a fitting description for fat buu, who we dont know what he'll do. Will he destroy that town or try to mate with the female, or build a house. See what I mean? we know for sure kid buu will destroy things/the town just because hes pure evil or evil itself so by the definition alone hes not unpredictable. Again fat buu and super buu are more in the scope of the definition of unpredictable.

I did, I assume you weren't able to see mine. I don't remember much of what I said, but it wasn't that far off Hugo's response.

We don't know much about Buff Buu, aside of a 45 second filler scene, so his speed, personality or even if he can speak is just our own headcanon. I'm in no position to call Buff Buu mindless, evil, fun or having a sweet tooth.

About the most troublesome quote, re-reading the manga, Shin never calls him THAT, I'm assuming this is a sentence said by the author and/or magazines after the fact, which are still valid and I agree with it.
So, why Buff Buu is being left out when he is Kid Buu on steroids? you have a point, Buff Buu should be held in higher regard than Kid Buu, but he isn't, probably because he wasn't as important or didn't play a major role. He is a two-panel afterthought.

Buff Buu could've lost some of Kid Buu's purity, not to the point where he is controllable or weaker like after Lardo, but at least to be not as pure, unadultered evil like the original one, which is what scares Shin. Kid Buu is untainted, Buff Buu is tainted with external factors.

Its stated in the manga:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The fact the supreme kai says he became controllable after absorbing the dai kioshin and not before is a clear indication that buu was still pure evil even with south kai i.e south kai didnt have that effect.