The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Koitsukai]

The fact the supreme kai says he became controllable after absorbing the dai kioshin and not before is a clear indication that buu was still pure evil even with south kai i.e south kai didnt have that effect.

It's funny, I've checked two different manga sources and neither of them have those lines, but it doesn't really matter because I do agree with that sentiment, whether was said during or after the serialization.
I see we are finding some common ground here, the DKS was the only one that had a negative effect on Buu's power and personality, therefore Buff Buu is stronger than Kid Buu because the power decrease only happened when DKS was absorbed.

The only minor difference I see is that Kid Buu is pure 100% Kid Buu, and Buff Buu is not 100% Kid Buu anymore, that's the one in-universe reason I see for Kid Buu to be regarded as more dangerous than the stronger Buff Buu.
Let's say Fat Buu is 50% Buu and 50% DKS, then Buff Buu could be 90% and 10%. Not in terms of power but in terms of who they actually are, so not enough to make him manageable but enough to be less dangerous than before.
I mean, it is said Kid Buu is the most dangerous one, so there must be a difference between them, even if it isn't what I proposed. And we know the power part wasn't reduced until the DKS joined the team.

[Gogetason]

The fact the supreme kai says he became controllable after absorbing the dai kioshin and not before is a clear indication that buu was still pure evil even with south kai i.e south kai didnt have that effect.

It's funny, I've checked two different manga sources and neither of them have those lines, but it doesn't really matter because I do agree with that sentiment, whether was said during or after the serialization.
I see we are finding some common ground here, the DKS was the only one that had a negative effect on Buu's power and personality, therefore Buff Buu is stronger than Kid Buu because the power decrease only happened when DKS was absorbed.

The only minor difference I see is that Kid Buu is pure 100% Kid Buu, and Buff Buu is not 100% Kid Buu anymore, that's the one in-universe reason I see for Kid Buu to be regarded as more dangerous than the stronger Buff Buu.
Let's say Fat Buu is 50% Buu and 50% DKS, then Buff Buu could be 90% and 10%. Not in terms of power but in terms of who they actually are, so not enough to make him manageable but enough to be less dangerous than before.
I mean, it is said Kid Buu is the most dangerous one, so there must be a difference between them, even if it isn't what I proposed. And we know the power part wasn't reduced until the DKS joined the team.

That quote was taken from the manga, translated by herms.

Its never stated whether the dia kaioshin was the only one that lowered his power, your twisting the quote. Its heavily implied that only the dia kaioshin made him less evil. We still dont know if both south kai and the dia kiaoshin lowered his power. Theres no statement which says south kai did or if both did.

Your using headcannon. Also that would be negligible to even make sense for them to call kid buu THE MOST DANGEROUS, just because hes a little more evil; If nothing is said about him becoming less evil after absorbing the south kai the only logical assumption would be that only the south kai has that effect.

[Koitsukai]

Its never stated whether the dia kaioshin was the only one that lowered his power, your twisting the quote. Its heavily implied that only the dia kaioshin made him less evil. We still dont know if both south kai and the dia kiaoshin lowered his power. Theres no statement which says south kai did or if both did.

Your using headcannon. Also that would be negligible to even make sense for them to call kid buu THE MOST DANGEROUS, just because hes a little more evil; If nothing is said about him becoming less evil after absorbing the south kai the only logical assumption would be that only the south kai has that effect.

It's literally on your quoted text!

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

If he didn't gain any heart as Buff Buu, then he didn't get his power lowered either, which was also clearly implied when his ki was rising when going from Super Buu to Buff Buu.

Absence of evidence is not evidence. In fact, in storytelling absence of evidence is used as "proof" to discard any other interpretation outside of the explicit text.
"It's raining..." but they never said there wasn't an alien invasion going on... therefore it's possible, right? Nope. If there was an alien invasion it would say "it's raining AND there's an alien invasion".

[Hugo Boss]

[…] wouldnt it be better to deduce base on the quote that only the dia kaioshin had that effect? because based on the quote buu with south kai absorbed was still pure evil/uncontrollable, that apparently did not change until the dai kioashin was absorbed; No where is it said the south kai made him less evil.

[…] As I said I dont think unpredictable is a fitting description for kid buu. Its more a fitting description for fat buu, who we dont know what he'll do. Will he destroy that town or try to mate with the female, or build a house. See what I mean? we know for sure kid buu will destroy things/the town just because hes pure evil or evil itself so by the definition alone hes not unpredictable. Again fat buu and super buu are more in the scope of the definition of unpredictable.

I’m not exactly suggesting Kid Buu became “less evil” in that instance. My point is that absorbing South Supreme Kai could have had a minor effect on Buu’s personality, even if it wasn’t enough to make him “controllable”. This is hinted by Super Buu acquiring Piccolo’s intelligence after absorbing him, which made him more eloquent and tactical. I see Buff Buu as less worrisome or disturbing than Kid Buu, who had the most pesky attitude out of the Buus. Kid Buu can’t be talk-no-jutsued or be convinced the same way the other Buus can.

[Gogetason]

Its never stated whether the dia kaioshin was the only one that lowered his power, your twisting the quote. Its heavily implied that only the dia kaioshin made him less evil. We still dont know if both south kai and the dia kiaoshin lowered his power. Theres no statement which says south kai did or if both did.

Your using headcannon. Also that would be negligible to even make sense for them to call kid buu THE MOST DANGEROUS, just because hes a little more evil; If nothing is said about him becoming less evil after absorbing the south kai the only logical assumption would be that only the south kai has that effect.

It's literally on your quoted text!

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

If he didn't gain any heart as Buff Buu, then he didn't get his power lowered either, which was also clearly implied when his ki was rising when going from Super Buu to Buff Buu.

Absence of evidence is not evidence. In fact, in storytelling absence of evidence is used as "proof" to discard any other interpretation outside of the explicit text.
"It's raining..." but they never said there wasn't an alien invasion going on... therefore it's possible, right? Nope. If there was an alien invasion it would say "it's raining AND there's an alien invasion".

I disagree there is little bit of ambiguity about that part of the quote; It seems to just be talking about dia kiaoshins effect not even considering the effect the south kai had, but at the same time, if its "absorptions" both kiaoshins could be implied to have lowered his power. So to elaborate on it, it could be rephrased like this: "the heart which he gained to go so far as to lower his power after absorbing both kiaoshins has return once again to the way it was.

I’m not exactly suggesting Kid Buu became “less evil” in that instance. My point is that absorbing South Supreme Kai could have had a minor effect on Buu’s personality, even if it wasn’t enough to make him “controllable”. This is hinted by Super Buu acquiring Piccolo’s intelligence after absorbing him, which made him more eloquent and tactical. I see Buff Buu as less worrisome or disturbing than Kid Buu, who had the most pesky attitude out of the Buus. Kid Buu can’t be talk-no-jutsued or be convinced the same way the other Buus can.

But if hes not less evil and still uncontrollable how can he be talk no jutsued? furthermore how is he less dangerous than kid buu? Since the property you seem to be focused on that you think makes kid buu most dangerous (being evil itself) is present in a supposedly more powerful buu, even if to a negligibly lesser degree( because hes still considered uncontrolable /very evil with south kai), wouldnt calling him the first most dangerous buu because of that be inconsequential, especially in an anime such as this.

No insult to you because you seem very smart but doesnt it feel like youre battling common sense?

[Koitsukai]

I disagree there is little bit of ambiguity about that part of the quote; It seems to just be talking about dia kiaoshins effect not even considering the effect the south kai had, but at the same time, if its "absorptions" both kiaoshins could be implied to have lowered his power. So to elaborate on it, it could be rephrased like this: "the heart which he gained to go so far as to lower his power after absorbing both kiaoshins has return once again to the way it was.

Now who's recurring to headcanon? If it was "both" then it would say BOTH. It's only ambiguous if you want it to be. Not only that, the narrative itself provides the needed context.
After absorbing the South Kai, Buu did not change but externally, so unless you can provide proof that Buu lost power but kept his personality intact, then that situation is read as "only when the fat guy was absorbed his mind and power were watered down".

And if absorptions were a negative thing for Buu, then he wouldn't be absorbing people left and right on Earth, wouldn't you say? after twice failing to improve his power by doing that, why would he try to do the same, and not just to survive but to fight somebody else? That would be the one thing Buu knows he shouldn't do.

Let me ask you one more thing, and I promise I'll let this matter rest: if Fat Buu wasn't removed, and Goku and Vegeta had to deal with Super Buu on Earth, and keep in mind they agreed he was still out of their league and had no idea how to deal with him... how do you think this what-if would've played out?
Would they've fought and beaten Super Buu? together or one-on-one? would they've rejected the potara, like they did in canon, if cornered? would they have escaped and waited until Gohan woke up?

[Hugo Boss]

But if hes not less evil and still uncontrollable how can he be talk no jutsued? furthermore how is he less dangerous than kid buu? Since the property you seem to be focused on that you think makes kid buu most dangerous (being evil itself) is present in a supposedly more powerful buu, even if to a negligibly lesser degree( because hes still considered uncontrolable /very evil with south kai), wouldnt calling him the first most dangerous buu because of that be inconsequential, especially in an anime such as this.

No insult to you because you seem very smart but doesnt it feel like youre battling common sense?

I see where you’re coming from, but let me clarify. I’m not saying Buff Buu is less dangerous than Kid Buu, just that Kid Buu’s behavior is less bound by any reason or distraction. So, while Buff Buu may be stronger, Kid Buu’s relentless nature makes him uniquely annoying to deal with, almost like an animal or a kid.

When it comes to “common sense,” I think it’s less about overthinking and more about trying to understand why Elder Kaioshin calls Kid Buu the “most troublesome” one; to me, he is talking about this Buu’s volatile nature, even if other forms are more dangerous or have similar levels of evil.

[Gogetason]

I disagree there is little bit of ambiguity about that part of the quote; It seems to just be talking about dia kiaoshins effect not even considering the effect the south kai had, but at the same time, if its "absorptions" both kiaoshins could be implied to have lowered his power. So to elaborate on it, it could be rephrased like this: "the heart which he gained to go so far as to lower his power after absorbing both kiaoshins has return once again to the way it was.

Now who's recurring to headcanon? If it was "both" then it would say BOTH. It's only ambiguous if you want it to be. Not only that, the narrative itself provides the needed context.
After absorbing the South Kai, Buu did not change but externally, so unless you can provide proof that Buu lost power but kept his personality intact, then that situation is read as "only when the fat guy was absorbed his mind and power were watered down".

And if absorptions were a negative thing for Buu, then he wouldn't be absorbing people left and right on Earth, wouldn't you say? after twice failing to improve his power by doing that, why would he try to do the same, and not just to survive but to fight somebody else? That would be the one thing Buu knows he shouldn't do.

Let me ask you one more thing, and I promise I'll let this matter rest: if Fat Buu wasn't removed, and Goku and Vegeta had to deal with Super Buu on Earth, and keep in mind they agreed he was still out of their league and had no idea how to deal with him... how do you think this what-if would've played out?
Would they've fought and beaten Super Buu? together or one-on-one? would they've rejected the potara, like they did in canon, if cornered? would they have escaped and waited until Gohan woke up?

Its not head cannon: Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Why would their need to be "both" when theres a possible "s" attached to absorption? Herms added the "s" in brackets for a reason. I think because the japanese laugauge expresses plural form of words differently, or whatever. Currently studying japanese so I'll find out soon myself.

Are you forgetting what buu said when vegeta was about to pull fat buu from his body? He said that he would "cease to exist":

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”
Boo: “Sto-stop it! Do-don’t touch that! Hands off!”
Vegeta: “Kukkukku…You seem even more panicked than I expected…Apparently it will be quite unfavorable for you…”
Boo: “Th-that’s the only one you mustn’t tear out…! I-I’ll stop being me!”
Goku: “’I’ll stop being me’…?”
Vegeta: “That sounds interesting…Did you really think I’d listen to you?”

So super buu most likely doesnt know how strong he was as kid buu.


And for your question, I think it might play out similar to the fight with kid buu except they probably wouldnt be given the opportunity to charge up a spirit bomb; Because of buu anatomy, his body lacks durability allowing him to be damaged by weaker attacks and goku is resilient enough and perseverant enough to keep up with him, similar to his fight with cell. It a testament to his fighting prowess.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.6
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed by Boo]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317), P8.2
Context: as pure Boo beats up on Vegeta
Vegeta: “Wh-what fast and heavy attacks…! …Kakarot was…fighting with a gu-guy like this…?!”

Tell me when you look at that second quote what do you think? Remember this is said after hes already assessed kid buus strength(in the quote above it) by comparing it with ssj3 goku because they were fighting evenly (because they cant sense buus ki properly).Why then question how its possible Goku is fighting kid buu? Remember that they cant sense buus ki properly, until they fight him themselves. Stated by Akira too in a interview, not verbatim though.

I see where you’re coming from, but let me clarify. I’m not saying Buff Buu is less dangerous than Kid Buu, just that Kid Buu’s behavior is less bound by any reason or distraction. So, while Buff Buu may be stronger, Kid Buu’s relentless nature makes him uniquely annoying to deal with, almost like an animal or a kid.

When it comes to “common sense,” I think it’s less about overthinking and more about trying to understand why Elder Kaioshin calls Kid Buu the “most troublesome” one; to me, he is talking about this Buu’s volatile nature, even if other forms are more dangerous or have similar levels of evil.

Well it comes off more like youre twisting the quote. Because its stated the only reason hes uncontrollable is simply because hes pure evil, nothing about him being volatile or relentless by nature(think about it was he even relentless in his fight with goku, prolonging the fight and dancing around->sadistic! ). Simply pure evil. Why would evil cause one to be uncontrollable, Its obvious but lets still look at words commonly associated with the word evil. Arrogance, heartless,hate, depraved,sadistic, destructive. Theres more but lets stop there. The first 3 are good enough reason why buu would be uncontrollable for bibidi.Dont add volatile or unpredictable which both imply a random change in behavior, again this is more fitting for fat buu and to a lesser degree super buu. And buff buu is the same mentally in term of being pure evil, its heavily implied. So for kid buu to be more dangerous he'll have to be more powerful.

But Its clear I cant change your mind so I'l stop there.

[Hugo Boss]

My interpretation focuses on how Elder Kaioshin’s “most troublesome” label comes after Kibitoshin hints at Buu becoming “controllable” when he became Fat Buu. And Kibitoshin goes along with it by saying Kid Buu has no self-control. Kid Buu’s instinct-driven, destructive nature, is further expanded on during their failed attempt to stop him from blowing up Earth. I mean, the context is right there supporting their dialogue, no twists about it.

[Gogetason]

My interpretation focuses on how Elder Kaioshin’s “most troublesome” label comes after Kibitoshin hints at Buu becoming “controllable” when he became Fat Buu. And Kibitoshin goes along with it by saying Kid Buu has no self-control. Kid Buu’s instinct-driven, destructive nature, is further expanded on during their failed attempt to stop him from blowing up Earth. I mean, the context is right there supporting their dialogue, no twists about it.

That ''no self-control" part of the quote and the scene that follows is emphasizing and illustrating his instinct-driven determination to do evil. Which is also seen through out the battle. He just wants to do evil.

And buff buu is implied to be just the same.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

I can't believe it's 2024 and people are still doing mental gymnastics about who is the strongest Buu when the manga is so obvious about it. If you really need to use as a source stuff outside of it to prove your point, that should say everything about how you are grasping at straws.

It's also very funny to claim Dragonball is a simple story (and it is) then write essays trying to argue the characters of the manga are wrong because an outside force said so. Pretending you have found the holy grail and that you ended a decades long debate because you looked at more sources without having critical thinking on whatever they should even be considered (seriously, videogames? Trading cards? The Cardass series over here had ChiChi being stronger than Frieza and Cell, is she now? Normal Super Buu was also the strongest in the entire game period, above Vegetto...) is also not only pretentious but absolute nonsense. You are not actually making a point, you are just reading a random compilation.

A direct hit from Spike The Devil Man's Devilmite beam vs. Beerus

This one is interesting because we are potentially getting into moral issues, but most of Toriyama's characters do have some kind of bad aspect to it, that's what the entire Oolong and Bulma dynamic was built on.

Logically speaking, if Beerus was choosen by someone as neutral as Whis, he should be good at his job and not be good or evil. He should just destroy things to keep the balance. And Beerus really doesn't seem to care about morality when he lets Frieza run around and even use him. However, come the ToP arc, it turns out he really *is* bad at his job. We are never told outright why, but you probably need to consider his long naps and the petty reasons he can destroy a planet (and zero coordination with the Kaioshins who only fear him).

Considering Devilman was surprised his attack didn't work on a child, I think the implication really was Toriyama saying "most people have evil on their heart by default" and while Beerus is doing his job, he does take pleasure from it and you could potentially argue his actions could be considered evil by some. Imagine if someone destroying your planet, wiping out civilization completely, because he didn't get to eat pudding. Would you argue they are completely good?

tdlr: it may not be as effective as against Frieza and knowing modern DB maybe there would be some bs excuse like "it doesn't work on gods" but I do think it would take Beerus out.

Hypothetical 5th Form Namek Frieza runs a Android saga gauntlet

1.SS Trunks Debut
2. SS Yardrat Goku
3. Android 19/20
4. Sick SS Goku
5. Piccolo Android saga
6. SS Trunks Android saga
7. SS Goku Android saga FP
8. SS Vegeta Android saga

Does he clear these savage saiyan apes?

Honestly, I have never seen Cooler's 5th form as a big power increase, as he was still beaten up badly by SS just after the Namek arc. Definetly not as big as Frieza's other form increases. I don't think he is beating Piccolo.

edit: oh, you mean Android saga before Cell don't you? Piccolo is not such a big deal then. It's hard to say given how the three year gap apparently boosted anyone but Vegeta. I don't think he is beating neither him or Goku.

I guess Depends how strong u have cooler overall compared to Frieza to determine the multiplier. I agree with that for the most part though

[Hugo Boss]

My interpretation focuses on how Elder Kaioshin’s “most troublesome” label comes after Kibitoshin hints at Buu becoming “controllable” when he became Fat Buu. And Kibitoshin goes along with it by saying Kid Buu has no self-control. Kid Buu’s instinct-driven, destructive nature, is further expanded on during their failed attempt to stop him from blowing up Earth. I mean, the context is right there supporting their dialogue, no twists about it.

That ''no self-control" part of the quote and the scene that follows is emphasizing and illustrating his instinct-driven determination to do evil. Which is also seen through out the battle. He just wants to do evil.

And buff buu is implied to be just the same.

Both Buus share the trait of being “evil”, but considering the context of their dialogue who is more evil than who is entirely subjective for the fans. The villain that causes more destruction, more pain, more submission? It’s up to you. The “evil” or “trouble” that is being discussed by the Supreme Kais is Kid Buu’s unruly destruction, not his power.

[Gogetason]

My interpretation focuses on how Elder Kaioshin’s “most troublesome” label comes after Kibitoshin hints at Buu becoming “controllable” when he became Fat Buu. And Kibitoshin goes along with it by saying Kid Buu has no self-control. Kid Buu’s instinct-driven, destructive nature, is further expanded on during their failed attempt to stop him from blowing up Earth. I mean, the context is right there supporting their dialogue, no twists about it.

That ''no self-control" part of the quote and the scene that follows is emphasizing and illustrating his instinct-driven determination to do evil. Which is also seen through out the battle. He just wants to do evil.

And buff buu is implied to be just the same.

Both Buus share the trait of being “evil”, but considering the context of their dialogue who is more evil than who is entirely subjective for the fans. The villain that causes more destruction, more pain, more submission? It’s up to you. The “evil” or “trouble” that is being discussed by the Supreme Kais is Kid Buu’s unruly destruction, not his power.

The evil thats being discussed is heavily implied to be present in buff buu as well, as its never stated he became controllable or less destructive as you like to add after absorbing south kai. Only after absorbing the dia kiaoshin did the problem of being pure evil abate or lesson. Its not subjective. However it left room for an additional information meaning if akira was alive he could have elaborated a little in a future arc saying the south kai indeed made him less evil. But as it is, the fact nothing was said about buu until after he absorbed the dai kaioshin means that nothing notable/significant changed with buu after absorbing the south kai and only the dia kiaoshin had the effect of making buu less evil/more controllable.

Also If the last part of the quote is indeed talking about both absorptions lowering his power then , if it wasnt obvious enough before , they are acknowledging both kid buus power increase/power returning and him being pure evil again in that discussion;Its the combination of his higher powerlevel and being evil itself that makes him such a threat. If he was as strong as cell while being evil itself there wouldnt be a tonal shift, the kais would still be just as happy as when buuhan reverted to super buu.

[nineko]

I am not a moderator, but can I humbly ask if it would be possible to split all this discussion about Buu into a new, separate topic? This has nothing to do with hypothetical "versus" matches anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

I am not a moderator, but can I humbly ask if it would be possible to split all this discussion about Buu into a new, separate topic? This has nothing to do with hypothetical "versus" matches anymore.

Good point! This discussion has veered away from the original topic. I appreciate everyone’s insights, but I think it’s time to wrap it up or take it elsewhere to avoid cluttering the thread. Thanks for the suggestion!

[nineko]

Also, please don't misread me, this is all good discussion, in fact, so good that it deserves to be into a separate topic for easier archiving and retrieval, instead of being off-topic in here. Having a proper title and all would probably incourage other people to partake.

[Almighty Majin]

How strong is Gohan Black? In the Sparking Zero what-if, Gohan caught up to Golden Freeza and barely surpassed him, then he spent time training with Piccolo to the point where he defeats Hit and wins the tournament. Gohan Black would be this Gohan, but a year later. Seeing as how strong Gohan was during the ToP and Super Hero, how does Gohan Black fare against the following opponents?

Ultimate Gohan Black vs...

1. SSJR Goku Black
2. Merged Zamasu
3. SSJ2 Kefla
4. GoD Toppo
5. Jiren
6. SSJ Broly
7. Gamma 1

[Kamiccolo9]

Repeat of an ancient post I made.

Eragon, with all of the Eldunari, runs the Dragon Ball gauntlet. How far does he get?

End of series Sesshomaru gets one free shot in on Buu. Can he take him out with his Bakusaiga?

The Black Knight from Fire Emblem Path of Radiance (not Radiant Dawn) vs the 21st Budokai contestants.

Alex from Golden Sun vs the 21st Budokai, and then the 22nd.

[Kid Buu]

Repeat of an ancient post I made.

Eragon, with all of the Eldunari, runs the Dragon Ball gauntlet. How far does he get?

End of series Sesshomaru gets one free shot in on Buu. Can he take him out with his Bakusaiga?

The Black Knight from Fire Emblem Path of Radiance (not Radiant Dawn) vs the 21st Budokai contestants.

Alex from Golden Sun vs the 21st Budokai, and then the 22nd.

The Bakusaiga bypasses regeneration so it'd basically be Buu's achilles heel.

[Peach]

Repeat of an ancient post I made.

Eragon, with all of the Eldunari, runs the Dragon Ball gauntlet. How far does he get?

End of series Sesshomaru gets one free shot in on Buu. Can he take him out with his Bakusaiga?

The Black Knight from Fire Emblem Path of Radiance (not Radiant Dawn) vs the 21st Budokai contestants.

Alex from Golden Sun vs the 21st Budokai, and then the 22nd.

I think there are only a few things in Inuyasha that could "kill" or incapacitate Dragon Ball characters... The Wind Tunnel, the Soul Piper stealing a soul, and the poison from the miasma. Even the wind tunnel might not work or have enough force to pull any of the characters in. And if it did, it might not hurt any of the characters since Goku, 17, and 18 survived a black hole type attack pretty easily in DBS.