Do you think GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts?

[nickzambuto]

They're obviously not in the same continuity. Why would you even use that argument?

Because it is Goku. He'll get stronger no matter what.

Sorry, I don't think your argument makes any sense at all tbh,

Freeza is in GT. He trained for longer than Freeza did in Super.
Uub was suggested to be monstrously strong in the Moro arc of Super. GT has that same Uub, at his full potential.
There are reasons to believe GT is stronger.

[SupremeKai25]

Because it is Goku. He'll get stronger no matter what.

Sorry, I don't think your argument makes any sense at all tbh,

Freeza is in GT. He trained for longer than Freeza did in Super.
Uub was suggested to be monstrously strong in the Moro arc of Super. GT has that same Uub, at his full potential.
There are reasons to believe GT is stronger.

In the year 2024, there are literally 0 reasons to try and fit Super and GT into the same timeline. They are quite clearly different continuities that don't mix.

I'll leave it at that as we can't even agree on the basics.

[nickzambuto]

Sorry, I don't think your argument makes any sense at all tbh,

Freeza is in GT. He trained for longer than Freeza did in Super.
Uub was suggested to be monstrously strong in the Moro arc of Super. GT has that same Uub, at his full potential.
There are reasons to believe GT is stronger.

In the year 2024, there are literally 0 reasons to try and fit Super and GT into the same timeline. They are quite clearly different continuities that don't mix.

I'll leave it at that as we can't even agree on the basics.

They are different timelines. But the characters are still the same. Freeza doesn't randomly have more potential in Super.

It's the same Freeza, but different events happened.

[SupremeKai25]

Freeza is in GT. He trained for longer than Freeza did in Super.
Uub was suggested to be monstrously strong in the Moro arc of Super. GT has that same Uub, at his full potential.
There are reasons to believe GT is stronger.

In the year 2024, there are literally 0 reasons to try and fit Super and GT into the same timeline. They are quite clearly different continuities that don't mix.

I'll leave it at that as we can't even agree on the basics.

They are different timelines. But the characters are still the same. Freeza doesn't randomly have more potential in Super.

It's the same Freeza, but different events happened.

You contradicted yourself in this post.

Since they are different timelines, they are literally not the same character.

By the way, Golden Frieza is so hilariously stronger than GT Frieza that I'm not even sure what your point's supposed to be.

[nickzambuto]

In the year 2024, there are literally 0 reasons to try and fit Super and GT into the same timeline. They are quite clearly different continuities that don't mix.

I'll leave it at that as we can't even agree on the basics.

They are different timelines. But the characters are still the same. Freeza doesn't randomly have more potential in Super.

It's the same Freeza, but different events happened.

You contradicted yourself in this post.

Since they are different timelines, they are literally not the same character.

By the way, Golden Frieza is so hilariously stronger than GT Frieza that I'm not even sure what your point's supposed to be.

But Freeza is the same. His potential is the same, and he trained for longer in GT. It is only the events that take place which are different. The splitting off point is whether or not Beerus wakes up and meets Goku. If Beerus doesn't meet Goku, then the events of GT happen.

[Shintoki]

They are different timelines. But the characters are still the same. Freeza doesn't randomly have more potential in Super.

It's the same Freeza, but different events happened.

You contradicted yourself in this post.

Since they are different timelines, they are literally not the same character.

By the way, Golden Frieza is so hilariously stronger than GT Frieza that I'm not even sure what your point's supposed to be.

But Freeza is the same. His potential is the same, and he trained for longer in GT. It is only the events that take place which are different. The splitting off point is whether or not Beerus wakes up and meets Goku. If Beerus doesn't meet Goku, then the events of GT happen.

freeza is a joke in GT

[The Monkey King]

But Freeza is the same. His potential is the same, and he trained for longer in GT. It is only the events that take place which are different.

Different continuity, different Freeza.

The splitting off point is whether or not Beerus wakes up and meets Goku. If Beerus doesn't meet Goku, then the events of GT happen.

No that's just your headcanon and nothing more.

[SupremeKai25]

But Freeza is the same. His potential is the same, and he trained for longer in GT. It is only the events that take place which are different.

Different continuity, different Freeza.

The splitting off point is whether or not Beerus wakes up and meets Goku. If Beerus doesn't meet Goku, then the events of GT happen.

No that's just your headcanon and nothing more.

Trying to fit Super and GT in the same continuity has been impossible since 2015. Before that, you could try to argue that GT is a split in the timeline where Beerus never woke up. (and even then you would have to acknowledge that there's 11 other universes that could oppose Omega Shenron)

But after 2015, you can't. GT's Hell looks NOTHING like Super's Hell. GT's Hell follows the logic of the Hell Toei made for DBZ fillers, so all the defeated villains are in the same place and can interact with one another and even make alliances (Cell-Frieza and Gero-Myuu).

Super's Hell, which is the Hell Toriyama created, is one where the villains each have their own individual "pocket dimensions". So Frieza is eternally stuck into a cocoon in a beautiful meadow. That's his Hell. And he cannot make an alliance with Cell.

GT's Frieza is obviously not the same character as Super's Frieza. GT's Frieza made an alliance with Cell and presumably still wants immortality. Super's Frieza never made an alliance with another villain in Hell and no longer wants immortality. Furthermore, there's no evidence GT Frieza kept up his training considering how he's literal fodder.

And even if you still wanted to argue that GT is a split in the timeline where Beerus never woke up, that still doesn't mean SSJ4 is stronger than what Goku would have gotten if Beerus woke up and went to Earth with Whis (God forms and Ultra Instinct).

[goku the krump dancer]

It ultimately doesn’t matter which iteration of the duo is stronger but I think it’s safe to say, for as great as God Ki was hyped up to be it sure isn’t hard for normal Ki users to keep up with or surpass that level of power, took Freeza four months and then again within a ten year time crunch, Gohan was able to keep up pretty well even without Beast, Jiren doesn’t use God Ki, neither does Kale, Broly, 17, Moro or Gas. So I see no reason why the GT versions of Goku or Vegeta couldn’t be on same level of power.

[SupremeKai25]

It ultimately doesn’t matter which iteration of the duo is stronger but I think it’s safe to say, for as great as God Ki was hyped up to be it sure isn’t hard for normal Ki users

Every single character you listed is not a "normal KI user", it's either a mutant/prodigy of their species or some kind of fraud (like Moro who steals power from people or Gas who made a wish to be the Strongest). The only character who is genuinely built different is Jiren, and even then, he wasn't much stronger than the Saiyans, he just had better Ki control and skill.

[goku the krump dancer]

It ultimately doesn’t matter which iteration of the duo is stronger but I think it’s safe to say, for as great as God Ki was hyped up to be it sure isn’t hard for normal Ki users

Every single character you listed is not a "normal KI user", it's either a mutant/prodigy of their species or some kind of fraud (like Moro who steals power from people or Gas who made a wish to be the Strongest). The only character who is genuinely built different is Jiren, and even then, he wasn't much stronger than the Saiyans, he just had better Ki control and skill.

By normal ki I meant “mortal” ki and that’s exactly what everyone I’ve listed use. Goku and Vegeta have been stated to be (in particular Goku in a multitude of occasions) fighting geniuses/prodigies or insert whatever term that means “really really good at something” it doesn’t mean much and for what it’s worth 17 was never regarded as such but was able to contend with SSBlue.

Gas and Granolah’s wishes to be the strongest in the universe wasnt granted in the literal sense, it was their life span heavily condensed in exchange for a higher battle power, hence why Granolah only has 3 years to live out of 150 and Gas was literally killing himself the further he pushed his body otherwise they both would’ve been stronger than Beerus and maybe even Whis but we all know that DBSuper still wants Beerus specifically to be THE top mountain to climb for the time being. Which is also why they sorta walked back Jiren’s “hype line” of being “ a mortal that’s stronger than a God Of Destruction” by saying “oh it was just better Ki control and strike precision that gave him such a huge edge over Goku and Vegeta’s and not just raw power. Which honestly that kinda contradicts how he was portrayed in the Tournament of Power but whatever.

Toppo also didn’t use God Ki until he transformed but was still able to contend with SSBlue.

[SupremeKai25]

It ultimately doesn’t matter which iteration of the duo is stronger but I think it’s safe to say, for as great as God Ki was hyped up to be it sure isn’t hard for normal Ki users

Every single character you listed is not a "normal KI user", it's either a mutant/prodigy of their species or some kind of fraud (like Moro who steals power from people or Gas who made a wish to be the Strongest). The only character who is genuinely built different is Jiren, and even then, he wasn't much stronger than the Saiyans, he just had better Ki control and skill.

By normal ki I meant “mortal” ki and that’s exactly what everyone I’ve listed use. Goku and Vegeta have been stated to be (in particular Goku in a multitude of occasions) fighting geniuses/prodigies or insert whatever term that means “really really good at something” it doesn’t mean much and for what it’s worth 17 was never regarded as such but was able to contend with SSBlue.

Again, those characters you mentioned are all insane mutants and prodigies. Their power is neither strange nor diminishing of God ki.

17 shouldn't be so strong and you never hear the end of it since 2017, that's pretty much the most common criticism of the ToP arc. So it's whatever. I've made my peace with it.

Now prove that GT Goku and Vegeta are above Super 17 (No, not that one). Because simply saying "Super 17 is really strong despite not having God ki!" doesn't prove that GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts.

Gas and Granolah’s wishes to be the strongest in the universe wasnt granted in the literal sense, it was their life span heavily condensed in exchange for a higher battle power, hence why Granolah only has 3 years to live out of 150 and Gas was literally killing himself the further he pushed his body otherwise they both would’ve been stronger than Beerus and maybe even Whis

No they wouldn't. The Dragon told them that they can't become stronger than the Gods.

The Gods still remain above any mortal, even with such a wish. This proves my point.

Which is also why they sorta walked back Jiren’s “hype line” of being “ a mortal that’s stronger than a God Of Destruction” by saying “oh it was just better Ki control and strike precision that gave him such a huge edge over Goku and Vegeta’s and not just raw power. Which honestly that kinda contradicts how he was portrayed in the Tournament of Power but whatever.

Jiren's superiority to the Gods of Destruction was hearsay and never proven. Furthermore, that's Anime-only. In the Manga, Jiren is claimed to be stronger than Belmod only, not all the Gods (including Beerus).

Toppo also didn’t use God Ki until he transformed but was still able to contend with SSBlue.

He's still been training with a Destroyer God.

[goku the krump dancer]

Again prodigy doesn’t mean much of anything, it’s just a term that’s used relative to the story plot at hand. Vegeta was the only Saiyan “Super Elite” (prodigy) yet his rival prior to Goku was freaking Cui. Roshi was the strongest human on Earth (Prodigy) until Tien showed up and then Krillin later on surpassed him as well. Hell everyone who’s ever been a World Tournament finalist were all technically considered to be some of the best in their craft (fighting prodigies) and yes that includes Randal and Manwolf.

Freeza was the strongest in the universe (Prodigy) until Goku transformed and then he was taken down again by Trunks who I might add was never considered to be any sort of fighting virtuoso (mutant, genius, prodigy) despite being a Saiyan/human hybrid.

My point isn’t about proving that Goku and Vegeta in GT are stronger than their Super counterparts. My point is that I don’t see why they couldn’t be comparable in strength considering that Super already proved that you don’t need God Ki to contend with God ki users in a fight. Which makes the notion that a lot of folks had earlier on in this revival era of Red SSGod and everything after that absolutely eclipsing anything prior to their debuts in power (GT in particular) a now in void statement. Even using your angle on Mutant Prodigy Geniuses, Goku isn’t any less of a great fighter or prodigy in GT than he is in Super.

Different stories were being told so Goku’s experiences were different but there’s nothing that goes against the idea that if Goku and Vegeta duked it out as SS4s or whatever that their fists clashing would also shake the universe like in Goku’s fight with Beerus in the TV anime.

[SupremeKai25]

Again prodigy doesn’t mean much of anything,

It means that they can be as strong as a mortal using God Ki because they are, simply put, built different.

They still stand no chance against Beerus.

My point is that I don’t see why they couldn’t be comparable in strength considering that Super already proved that you don’t need God Ki to contend with God ki users in a fight.

Because Goku is not Gohan or Frieza, and he was hard-capped by Beerus finger-flicking in that episode 5 before God ki.

Goku doesn't even have a tiny fraction of Goku and Frieza's potential.

Just because Gohan and Frieza can reach that kind of level on their own doesn't mean it's the same for Goku and Vegeta.

Which makes the notion that a lot of folks had earlier on in this revival era of Red SSGod and everything after that absolutely eclipsing anything prior to their debuts in power (GT in particular) a now in void statement.

SSG does absolutely trump anything prior to its debut, GT in particular.

You're welcome to show me any GT character shaking the universe with fists and kicks.

Different stories were being told so Goku’s experiences were different but there’s nothing that goes against the idea that if Goku and Vegeta duked it out as SS4s or whatever that their fists clashing would also shake the universe like in Goku’s fight with Beerus in the TV anime.

1) It was in all mediums that SSG Goku and his fight were shaking the universe.

2) Sure, just show proof that SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta can shake universes.

[super michael]

If a mortal is stronger than a God, then the Dragon would make that person stronger than that mortal, therefore making him stronger than that God.

Jiren is stronger than Belmond, which is stated by Toppo. I am sure he knows both Jiren and Belmond better than us.
Goku in his UI form is a rival to Jiren, until UI takes its toll on his body, for being inexperienced.
Then there is Broly, his power might rival Beerus. I can't remember the exact quote.

There is no doubt that Granolah and Gas are stronger than Belmond, who is a God, since there are mortal stronger than him.


GT characters trained differently compared to DBS, so of course their power would be different. They can have the same potential, with different results.
Future Gohan and Present Gohan are the same person, however their life changes when one knows about the cyborg while the other has no clue about the cyborgs and Goku death.

[goku the krump dancer]

But Goku is also a prodigy in that he has mastered Ultra Instinct at a greater level than Beerus, someone who as of right now he supposedly still hasn’t surpassed.

Again the term is passed around like a hot potato, it has no real value outside of the story it’s relative to at the time. You overlooked my early Dragon Ball example because the characters in that era aren’t on the same level as the people we see in Super and GT but it leans to my point that those “super weak” fighters were still at one time considered Martial Arts geniuses or Prodigies.

There was never a point in the entire Dragon Ball Franchsie where Goku wasn’t considered to be abnormally gifted in his fighting prowess, he was always considered “a prodigy”. Yes Gohan has always been the one with the deepest well but Goku is always the one setting the standard. So giving he and Vegeta’s knack for constantly pushing their limits I don’t see why the GT versions of them couldn’t compare to their Super counter parts. They’re both prodigy’s in both stories.

[SupremeKai25]

But Goku is also a prodigy in that he has mastered Ultra Instinct at a greater level than Beerus, someone who as of right now he supposedly still hasn’t surpassed.

Again the term is passed around like a hot potato, it has no real value outside of the story it’s relative to at the time. You overlooked my early Dragon Ball example because the characters in that era aren’t on the same level as the people we see in Super and GT but it leans to my point that those “super weak” fighters were still at one time considered Martial Arts geniuses or Prodigies.

There was never a point in the entire Dragon Ball Franchsie where Goku wasn’t considered to be abnormally gifted in his fighting prowess, he was always considered “a prodigy”. Yes Gohan has always been the one with the deepest well but Goku is always the one setting the standard. So giving he and Vegeta’s knack for constantly pushing their limits I don’t see why the GT versions of them couldn’t compare to their Super counter parts. They’re both prodigy’s in both stories.

That's not how power-scaling works. You have to provide feats and statements in support of GT Goku and Vegeta being comparable to their Super versions.

Simply saying "They're all prodigies so hypothetically they can be as strong as I want" isn't enough.

[super michael]

But Goku is also a prodigy in that he has mastered Ultra Instinct at a greater level than Beerus, someone who as of right now he supposedly still hasn’t surpassed.

Again the term is passed around like a hot potato, it has no real value outside of the story it’s relative to at the time. You overlooked my early Dragon Ball example because the characters in that era aren’t on the same level as the people we see in Super and GT but it leans to my point that those “super weak” fighters were still at one time considered Martial Arts geniuses or Prodigies.

There was never a point in the entire Dragon Ball Franchsie where Goku wasn’t considered to be abnormally gifted in his fighting prowess, he was always considered “a prodigy”. Yes Gohan has always been the one with the deepest well but Goku is always the one setting the standard. So giving he and Vegeta’s knack for constantly pushing their limits I don’t see why the GT versions of them couldn’t compare to their Super counter parts. They’re both prodigy’s in both stories.

That's not how power-scaling works. You have to provide feats and statements in support of GT Goku and Vegeta being comparable to their Super versions.

Simply saying "They're all prodigies so hypothetically they can be as strong as I want" isn't enough.

I will have to say DBS Goku and Vegeta > GT Goku and Vegeta
Just in BoG by achieving SSG, Goku surpassed a power that he didn't know it was possible. This power up is greater than Vegito.

However potential wise if GT Goku trains with Whis, he can achieve SSG, SSB and Ultra Instinct. GT Goku has his tail, which always makes him feel stronger.

[Kaboom]

Super walked back on the whole "their fight might destroy the universe" nonsense almost as soon as it happened, and the circumstances of the few times it did come up lead me to believe it has as much or more to do with the type of power being used (god-ki or maybe whatever "destruction energy" is supposed to be) than just the raw amount or Goku's lack of control. Then of course Heroes showed us that SS4 is on-par with SS Blue in raw power, meaning that if Goku had gained the former to use against Beerus, he'd have put up an even better fight than he did with Super Saiyan God. Relatively speaking anyway, with Beerus being Beerus.

So combine that with GT Goku having an extra ~10 years of training under his belt and already being vaguely Boo-level in his base form, and the haphazardly inconsistent power-scaling of both series (but especially split-identity Super), and I've got no good reason to not believe that GT Goku and Vegeta would have a substantial power lead on their second-rate DBS counterparts.

At least in equal or equivalent forms, anyway... because "White-Haired Bullshit" (Ultra Instinct) and "Shiny New Way To Lose" (Ultra Ego) would probably allow DBS Goku and Vegeta to make up the difference and gain the overall power advantage, since mainline GT Goku and Vegeta don't have higher-tier versions of SS4 (i.e. Limit Breaker) like their Xeno selves do to counter those forms in turn.

But even then, that still wouldn't necessarily guarantee that anyone wins or loses, seeing how simply entering Ultra Ego automatically causes DBS Vegeta's chances of winning to drop to like 0.0001%, and DBS Goku would probably suddenly forget how to fire ki blasts or something mid-battle.

[Hugo Boss]

I still see a lot of the “universal shockwave feat in Super is the definitive proof of superiority” trope in this debate, but feats in Dragon Ball are frequently exaggerated for dramatic effect and don’t always align with power scaling. That one specifically was dropped as the series presented fist clashes at a much greater level of intensity without a comparable visual impact (except Gogeta vs. Broly). This is a heavily inconsistent aspect of power scaling.

Both series have different contexts and you won’t exactly find an in-universe solution either since there are Goku iterations in GT and Super stronger than Super Vegetto from DBZ. So, I don’t think solely relying on high-scale feats, which often lack deeper in-universe justifications, is enough.