Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

My tier list will be shorter and include only certain characters,

I am treating Xeno and GT Goku and Vegeta as the basically the same and using by the final battle of Goku Xeno v CC Goku(using current chapters characters for each, instead of CC Goku for example), so Xeno Goku base is equal with current Goku base.


8. Wrath State Broly, SSG Goku/SSG Vegeta.

9. SS4 Xeno Goku/SS4 Xeno Vegeta/SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Golden Frieza, Ultimate Gohan, Ultimate Piccolo, Android 17, Wrath State Broly(Full Power)

10. SSBK Goku/True Golden Frieza.

11. SS4FP Xeno Goku/SS4FP Xeno Vegeta/SSBKX20 Goku/SSBE Vegeta.

12. SS4LB Xeno Goku/SS4LB Xeno Vegeta/UI Sign Goku/SSBE(Mastered) Vegeta.

13. Gohan Beast, UI Goku/UE Vegeta, SS Broly(Controlled), Cell Max, Orange Piccolo.

14. SSB Gogeta/SSB Vegito, Beerus, Gohan Beast(Mastered), Cell Max(Mastered) SS Broly(Mastered), Black Frieza.

15. Zeno, Zalama, Grand Priest, Whis.

[ZombieVito]

Damn. I began to do one and ran into the problem that I made it too bloated since I always put everyone lol.

I also don't know if I should put all the forms or just the characters at their peak.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hastily made list. Didn't use the list because this is more of a draft than anything. Characters aren't listed in any particular order within their own tiers.

Spoiler:

Vegetto Blue
GoDs
LSSJ Broly

UI Goku and co.
Cell Max
Moro (Prime and 73)
Jiren

UI Sign Goku
LB SSJ4 Goku
Omega Shenlong
Merged Zamasu (Anime)

KKx20 SSJB Goku
FP SSJ4 Goku

KKx10 SSJB Goku
Syn Shenlong

Base Gogeta/Vegetto
SSJB Goku (Mid DBS)
All the 32 guys that rival SSJB Goku
SSJ4 Goku
Super 17
GO Baby Vegeta
SSJR Goku Black

GO Goku
SBV2

SBV1
SSJG Goku

Baby Vegeta
SSJ3 Goku

Base Goku (GT/Mid DBS)
General Rildo
Boohan

SSJG Goku and SBV1 being equals works out pretty well. And SBV1 seems to be 1/50th of SSJ4 just like SSJG is 1/50th of Blue: Baby's forms are compared to SSJ2 and 3, so SBV2 = 4x SBV1. Add in Golden Oozaru and that's 40x, which SSJ4 Goku being 50x SBV1 by the end of their fight when he gets the upperhand.

Damn. I began to do one and ran into the problem that I made it too bloated since I always put everyone lol.

I also don't know if I should put all the forms or just the characters at their peak.

Most of the DBS Saiyans are very close in the same forms (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Caulifla, Cabba), so I guess just doing Goku works.

[ZombieVito]

Hastily made list. Didn't use the list because this is more of a draft than anything. Characters aren't listed in any particular order within their own tiers.

Spoiler:

Vegetto Blue
GoDs
LSSJ Broly

UI Goku and co.
Cell Max
Moro (Prime and 73)
Jiren

UI Sign Goku
LB SSJ4 Goku
Omega Shenlong
Merged Zamasu (Anime)

KKx20 SSJB Goku
FP SSJ4 Goku

KKx10 SSJB Goku
Syn Shenlong

Base Gogeta/Vegetto
SSJB Goku (Mid DBS)
All the 32 guys that rival SSJB Goku
SSJ4 Goku
Super 17
GO Baby Vegeta
SSJR Goku Black

GO Goku
SBV2

SBV1
SSJG Goku

Baby Vegeta
SSJ3 Goku

Base Goku (GT/Mid DBS)
General Rildo
Boohan

SSJG Goku and SBV1 being equals works out pretty well. And SBV1 seems to be 1/50th of SSJ4 just like SSJG is 1/50th of Blue: Baby's forms are compared to SSJ2 and 3, so SBV2 = 4x SBV1. Add in Golden Oozaru and that's 40x, which SSJ4 Goku being 50x SBV1 by the end of their fight when he gets the upperhand.

Damn. I began to do one and ran into the problem that I made it too bloated since I always put everyone lol.

I also don't know if I should put all the forms or just the characters at their peak.

Most of the DBS Saiyans are very close in the same forms (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Caulifla, Cabba), so I guess just doing Goku works.

Is that current Vegetto Blue or the one from the Zamasu arc? Because of its the latter then he should be right there with Fused Zamasu.

[ankokudaishogun]

some stray thoughts because I'm sleepy but not enough to actually go to sleep:

Beerus says Complete Blue is good enough for a GoD Candidate
Toppo is a GoD Candidate, and he's on the same level as Complete Blue Vegeta in the manga.

But in the anime he's on the level of BASE Blue Vegeta... but then he goes and uses what is for all purposes and intents Ultra Ego to reach the level of a Full GoD(as of Belmod's words).
Said state is about the level of Blue Evolution, which is equivalent to Blue Kaiohken x20.

Therefore, unless Belmod was referring to Ultra Ego in his declaration of Toppo's powered up form being a de-facto GoD(which is realistic, mind you), we have:
Candicate Class=Ten Times Blue (Complete, KKx10)
Minimum GoD Class=Twenty Times Blue (Evolution, KKx20)


which also scales pretty well with Beerus reacting to Goku's KK in the anime: surprise at Goku achieving Candidate-class power so fast\suddenly.

As for Merged Zamasu: it's not Manga Future Zamasu who is weaker, it's Manga Black.
Anime Black Rosé is(becomes) so powerful even Black himself cannot understand it.
While Manga Black Rosé is just "generic" Blue-class.
And then Anime Fused Zamasu gets a powerup from heavens.
(Anime Zamasu and Black being in perfect sync, unlike their manga counterparts, might or might not have some effect)

Meanwhile both Future Zamasu are realistically SS2-class like their Present counterparts

[GreatSaiyaman123]

some stray thoughts because I'm sleepy but not enough to actually go to sleep:

Beerus says Complete Blue is good enough for a GoD Candidate
Toppo is a GoD Candidate, and he's on the same level as Complete Blue Vegeta in the manga.

But in the anime he's on the level of BASE Blue Vegeta... but then he goes and uses what is for all purposes and intents Ultra Ego to reach the level of a Full GoD(as of Belmod's words).
Said state is about the level of Blue Evolution, which is equivalent to Blue Kaiohken x20.

Therefore, unless Belmod was referring to Ultra Ego in his declaration of Toppo's powered up form being a de-facto GoD(which is realistic, mind you), we have:
Candicate Class=Ten Times Blue (Complete, KKx10)
Minimum GoD Class=Twenty Times Blue (Evolution, KKx20)


which also scales pretty well with Beerus reacting to Goku's KK in the anime: surprise at Goku achieving Candidate-class power so fast\suddenly.

As for Merged Zamasu: it's not Manga Future Zamasu who is weaker, it's Manga Black.
Anime Black Rosé is(becomes) so powerful even Black himself cannot understand it.
While Manga Black Rosé is just "generic" Blue-class.
And then Anime Fused Zamasu gets a powerup from heavens.
(Anime Zamasu and Black being in perfect sync, unlike their manga counterparts, might or might not have some effect)

Meanwhile both Future Zamasu are realistically SS2-class like their Present counterparts

I like your theory. Manga Toppo being 10x stronger than hims anime self kinda compensates for him not having GoD form in the manga.

For Zamasu, I think Goku Black’s powers make a huge difference. Not only manga Black was weaker, anime Black’s instant zenkais were a big help for anime MZ. Light of Divine Justice and his mutated form give him a massive leap in power to rival even Vegetto Blue.

Kefla also scales differently because Kale is much stronger in the manga. So while this guarantees SSJ Kefla is also Blue level, the big gap between the girls makes manga Kefla weaker. She’s MSSJB/KKx10 level in the manga and KKx20 level in the anime. Manga Gohan surpasses his anime counterpart just because he fought a stronger enemy.

[Yuji]

I think Kefla is somewhat below CSSB in the manga. Vados implies all Kale gained from the fusion was Caulifla's intelligence and control. The power she had remained the same or only slightly improved. It's the same logic with Merged Zamasu too, only Black powered up a bit more since Zamasu was stronger to begin with and they had greater affinity.

Seems the logic, at least for the manga, for fusions of beings with greatly different battlepowers is that the fusion retains the power of the strongest fusee with maybe a slight increase, along with the personality traits of both. Goku even says in the original series his power wouldn't increase at all from fusing with Satan or Dende. If fusion were straight multiplication, he'd get way stronger even from Satan's x6-x9 battle power.

[nineko]

With all that said, I'd still like to see the hypothetical fusion of Goku and Mister Satan getting done for real, even if it happens in a filler episode just because they feel like messing around. Fusions have a lot of comedic potential when they're not used for serious fights.

[ankokudaishogun]

Kefla also scales differently because Kale is much stronger in the manga.

that's... iffy.

In the anime she gets Super Saiyan 2 which is stated making her stronger than her berserker state
But she gets styled and in a couple scenes overpowered by Goku's SS2.
But again by the end of the 2v1 she tanks some of Goku's SSG attacks, form they forced him to take.

The only explanation is that while her raw power in SS2 was in fact greater than in her berserker stage, she had a limited output due lack of practice with such power, especially if we recall the No Kill Rule of the tournament: she might have held back too much because her unfamiliarity with her new power-level.
(plus Anime Kale was never implied being much of a fighter, unlike Manga Kale)

Plus Caulifla herself who was SS2 in the anime as proof of being a greater fighting genius than Manga Caulifla.
Her intercepting Instant Transmission was unprecedented after all.

Manga Kefla is made of weaker components so she scales lower and about "basic" Blue like Ultimate Gohan.

Anime Kefla did fodder Goku's Blue, and even using Kaiohken he barely matched her Super Saiyan.

I think she scales pretty well at the level of Anime Fused Zamasu pre-Lighting of Justice, who was composed by a above-average Blue-class Black and SS2-class Future Zamasu
Specifically Kefla as SS1.
As SS2, she scales to Fused Zamasu Grotesque but without the immortality that made him a relative match for Vegetto Blue.

Thus not properly at Complete UI level... which would match UI-Sing level.

It's the same logic with Merged Zamasu too, only Black powered up a bit more since Zamasu was stronger to begin with and they had greater affinity.

Manga Fused Zamasu didn't powerup more than Manga Kefla, he was just immortal.

[ZombieVito]

Kefla also scales differently because Kale is much stronger in the manga.

that's... iffy.

In the anime she gets Super Saiyan 2 which is stated making her stronger than her berserker state
But she gets styled and in a couple scenes overpowered by Goku's SS2.
But again by the end of the 2v1 she tanks some of Goku's SSG attacks, form they forced him to take.

The only explanation is that while her raw power in SS2 was in fact greater than in her berserker stage, she had a limited output due lack of practice with such power, especially if we recall the No Kill Rule of the tournament: she might have held back too much because her unfamiliarity with her new power-level.
(plus Anime Kale was never implied being much of a fighter, unlike Manga Kale)

Plus Caulifla herself who was SS2 in the anime as proof of being a greater fighting genius than Manga Caulifla.
Her intercepting Instant Transmission was unprecedented after all.

Manga Kefla is made of weaker components so she scales lower and about "basic" Blue like Ultimate Gohan.

Anime Kefla did fodder Goku's Blue, and even using Kaiohken he barely matched her Super Saiyan.

I think she scales pretty well at the level of Anime Fused Zamasu pre-Lighting of Justice, who was composed by a above-average Blue-class Black and SS2-class Future Zamasu
Specifically Kefla as SS1.
As SS2, she scales to Fused Zamasu Grotesque but without the immortality that made him a relative match for Vegetto Blue.

Thus not properly at Complete UI level... which would match UI-Sing level.

It's the same logic with Merged Zamasu too, only Black powered up a bit more since Zamasu was stronger to begin with and they had greater affinity.

Manga Fused Zamasu didn't powerup more than Manga Kefla, he was just immortal.

Kale is far stronger in the manga. Freeza himself said he needed to get serious to beat her, she's undeniably CSSB tier while her anime version is just SSG tier.

Manga Fused Zamasu definitely powered up more since Black was just regular SSB tier.

[Shintoki]

generally, am not on board with cross scaling characters through the manga and the anime cuz they are seperate continuities and operate under different modus operandi for their power systems

[ankokudaishogun]

Kale is far stronger in the manga. Freeza himself said he needed to get serious to beat her, she's undeniably CSSB tier while her anime version is just SSG tier.

what makes you say so?
She actively tanked a Kamehameha from Goku Blue(though It's realistic he might had been holding back too much not correctly understanding Kale's power) and Anime Jiren felt he had to act.

[ZombieVito]

what makes you say so?
She actively tanked a Kamehameha from Goku Blue(though It's realistic he might had been holding back too much not correctly understanding Kale's power) and Anime Jiren felt he had to act.

She literally can't beat a tired SSG Goku with a stronger form.

SSB Goku was suppressed during the ToP until his fight with Jiren in episode 109.

[QuakingStar]

Yup. base Kale's power level is smaller than the others in the anime, she reaches about Super Saiyan God level in the anime due to her transformation's gargantuan power.

In the manga her base form is so strong that her hits could actually make Golden Frieza feel pain, and she was fast enough to go unnoticed for awhile. Her full power before she started damaging herself was likely above PSSB Goku and Golden Frieza but then she couldn't control it and started hurting herself and losing power.

[Hugo Boss]

Even if Goku wasn’t fighting at its fullest he still used Super Saiyan Blue against Kale’s berserk Super Saiyan. There is no reason to assume he was fighting at a level below his Super Saiyan God form, specially when Blue is a direct power-up from God.

[QuakingStar]

Then you would have to chalk it up to inconsistency in the anime(and that is not a shocker anyway). But you need to remember that Goku used Blue against Krillin too and clashes Kamehamehas with him.

[ZombieVito]

Then you would have to chalk it up to inconsistency in the anime(and that is not a shocker anyway). But you need to remember that Goku used Blue against Krillin too and clashes Kamehamehas with him.

He also used it against Ribrianne and we know for a fact she's not passing SS tier since 18 beat her.

[QuakingStar]

With 18 it's a little different, she could have easily gotten stronger since the Cell Games the same way 17 did. All he did was fight off poachers and spar with Cell Jrs. So while I don't think she's at the same level of 17, she could easily be far above SS tier by now.

[ZombieVito]

With 18 it's a little different, she could have easily gotten stronger since the Cell Games the same way 17 did. All he did was fight off poachers and spar with Cell Jrs. So while I don't think she's at the same level of 17, she could easily be far above SS tier by now.

She obviously did since she displayed feats above base Goku, who can one shot SS3 Gotenks.

[ankokudaishogun]

She literally can't beat a tired SSG Goku with a stronger form.

Yes, I did address that: she couldn't beat SS2 Goku either, just a bit before.

Which makes no sense unless she was getting stronger over time.

And given we have been told she had an increase in power, with no reason to believe it a lie, it can only mean she was learning to harness her newfound power.

I mean: it COULD be still mean she was "just" God-class, but it wouldn't fit with everybody's reaction to her berserker power

As for Goku's use of Blue: its Perfect Ki Control™ means it's the best for for everything higher than SS1 as he can easily Hold Back™ as necessary.
Which makes it a nightmare for powerscaling.