Do you think GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts?

[SupremeKai25]

Y'all are literally just hand-waving away any argument in support of Super Goku and Vegeta, LOL!

I don't even know what to say. Everything I bring up is hand-waved away and ignored as an "outlier" or "irrelevant".

[JulieYBM]

I wish that the shockwave stuff had been expanded upon more. It felt like something either tossed in as a desperate attempt to make the episode work because they had no other way of making the episode cool thanks to executives fucking them on their production schedule and resources or something that was simply later dropped. Either way, I really like the concept and can see how you could do a lot with reality basically shattering. After all, we saw this concept slightly revisited during Dragon Ball Super: Broli while Gogeta Blue fought Broli. Like, fuck it, use the concept of "two spiritual forces clashing so hard the barriers within reality break down and consciousnesses merge" as a way to have characters reflect and be exposed to one another.

[goku the krump dancer]

But Goku is also a prodigy in that he has mastered Ultra Instinct at a greater level than Beerus, someone who as of right now he supposedly still hasn’t surpassed.

Again the term is passed around like a hot potato, it has no real value outside of the story it’s relative to at the time. You overlooked my early Dragon Ball example because the characters in that era aren’t on the same level as the people we see in Super and GT but it leans to my point that those “super weak” fighters were still at one time considered Martial Arts geniuses or Prodigies.

There was never a point in the entire Dragon Ball Franchsie where Goku wasn’t considered to be abnormally gifted in his fighting prowess, he was always considered “a prodigy”. Yes Gohan has always been the one with the deepest well but Goku is always the one setting the standard. So giving he and Vegeta’s knack for constantly pushing their limits I don’t see why the GT versions of them couldn’t compare to their Super counter parts. They’re both prodigy’s in both stories.

That's not how power-scaling works. You have to provide feats and statements in support of GT Goku and Vegeta being comparable to their Super versions.

Simply saying "They're all prodigies so hypothetically they can be as strong as I want" isn't enough.

You brought the whole prodigy thing up! I just used Super’s own story progression to prove my point on how someone doesn’t need God Ki to fight a God ki user and explain how being a “Prodigy” is little more than a hyperbole statement used to justify an absurd power jump or to build tension in letting us know that Goku and co are in for some stiff competition and that’s for the franchise as a whole not just Super.

There are no real feats to compare and contrast really, SS1 Goku in GT is stronger than Boo and so is Red SSGod in Super. SS4 Goku is Really Really fast and so is Vegetto Blue. SS4 Goku is Stronger than SS1 Goku which is stronger than Boo and Gogeta Blue is Stroger than Blue Goku who’s stronger than Boo. It’s all relative.

The only official source we have to go off, like stated above is DBHeroes which depicts SS4 and Blue being dead even at worst and at best a hypothetical “Super”esque Goku needing to tap into a COMPLETE Ultra Instinct in order to best his “GT”esque counter part, which means SS4 could roughly scale to Jiren, who’s stronger than Belmod, who as far as we know is no slouch as a God of Destruction.

[SupremeKai25]

But Goku is also a prodigy in that he has mastered Ultra Instinct at a greater level than Beerus, someone who as of right now he supposedly still hasn’t surpassed.

Again the term is passed around like a hot potato, it has no real value outside of the story it’s relative to at the time. You overlooked my early Dragon Ball example because the characters in that era aren’t on the same level as the people we see in Super and GT but it leans to my point that those “super weak” fighters were still at one time considered Martial Arts geniuses or Prodigies.

There was never a point in the entire Dragon Ball Franchsie where Goku wasn’t considered to be abnormally gifted in his fighting prowess, he was always considered “a prodigy”. Yes Gohan has always been the one with the deepest well but Goku is always the one setting the standard. So giving he and Vegeta’s knack for constantly pushing their limits I don’t see why the GT versions of them couldn’t compare to their Super counter parts. They’re both prodigy’s in both stories.

That's not how power-scaling works. You have to provide feats and statements in support of GT Goku and Vegeta being comparable to their Super versions.

Simply saying "They're all prodigies so hypothetically they can be as strong as I want" isn't enough.

You brought the whole prodigy thing up! I just used Super’s own story progression to prove my point on how someone doesn’t need God Ki to fight a God ki user and explain how being a “Prodigy” is little more than a hyperbole statement used to justify an absurd power jump or to build tension in letting us know that Goku and co are in for some stiff competition and that’s for the franchise as a whole not just Super.

There are no real feats to compare and contrast really, SS1 Goku in GT is stronger than Boo and so is Red SSGod in Super. SS4 Goku is Really Really fast and so is Vegetto Blue. SS4 Goku is Stronger than SS1 Goku which is stronger than Boo and Gogeta Blue is Stroger than Blue Goku who’s stronger than Boo. It’s all relative.

The only official source we have to go off, like stated above is DBHeroes which depicts SS4 and Blue being dead even at worst and at best a hypothetical “Super”esque Goku needing to tap into a COMPLETE Ultra Instinct in order to best his “GT”esque counter part, which means SS4 could roughly scale to Jiren, who’s stronger than Belmod, who as far as we know is no slouch as a God of Destruction.

But Super Goku does have an important feat, that's the point. You are just deciding that the feat is no longer valid because... it's been 10 years and feats have an "expiration date", I guess?

Even though following arcs nod and wink at the universal feats from BoG. Kefla in the Anime version of the ToP stated that she could destroy the Universe with one blow, and Gogeta and Broly shattered dimensional bonds as mentioned above.

[Yuji]

Super walked back on the whole "their fight might destroy the universe" nonsense almost as soon as it happened, and the circumstances of the few times it did come up lead me to believe it has as much or more to do with the type of power being used (god-ki or maybe whatever "destruction energy" is supposed to be) than just the raw amount or Goku's lack of control. Then of course Heroes showed us that SS4 is on-par with SS Blue in raw power, meaning that if Goku had gained the former to use against Beerus, he'd have put up an even better fight than he did with Super Saiyan God. Relatively speaking anyway, with Beerus being Beerus.

So combine that with GT Goku having an extra ~10 years of training under his belt and already being vaguely Boo-level in his base form, and the haphazardly inconsistent power-scaling of both series (but especially split-identity Super), and I've got no good reason to not believe that GT Goku and Vegeta would have a substantial power lead on their second-rate DBS counterparts.

At least in equal or equivalent forms, anyway... because "White-Haired Bullshit" (Ultra Instinct) and "Shiny New Way To Lose" (Ultra Ego) would probably allow DBS Goku and Vegeta to make up the difference and gain the overall power advantage, since mainline GT Goku and Vegeta don't have higher-tier versions of SS4 (i.e. Limit Breaker) like their Xeno selves do to counter those forms in turn.

But even then, that still wouldn't necessarily guarantee that anyone wins or loses, seeing how simply entering Ultra Ego automatically causes DBS Vegeta's chances of winning to drop to like 0.0001%, and DBS Goku would probably suddenly forget how to fire ki blasts or something mid-battle.

Considering that Super Vegetto is compared to Baby arc SS4 Goku, and Baby Vegeta is compared to Gohan Boo, whereas the last time any Z character was brought up as a measuring stick in Super was Battle of Gods, I don't see how you can make this argument in good faith. And believe me, I'm not one of those "SSG > Z SS3 Vegetto Kaioken x20 Dragon Fist" believers either, as I think Super Vegetto, due to how Gogeta performed in Broly, was probably close to or even stronger than BoG SSG, but the fact is that Super characters get exponentially stronger past BoG, whereas GT characters get at most a couple of dozen times, scaling from Super Yi Shin Long's "10x stronger" statement.

Heroes had to create new forms to equate the two Gokus. FPSS4LB does not actually exist in GT, and FPSS4 exists only under very hard to replicate, specific conditions. Even if we grant that base SS4 = base SSB, Goku in the manga has the completed Blue and his makeshift Kaioken, in the Super anime he can outright stack a 20x multiplier on top of Blue, plus the two UI forms.

But owing to GT Goku's superior base battle power, if anything, SS4 being equal to Blue is proof that it has an inferior multiplier. To me, it's probably more comparable as a multiplier to SSG, since both are the next form past 3. I've always equated the two as a x10 SS3 multiplier, and only hold GT Goku relative to Blueku due to the difference in base battle powers.

[goku the krump dancer]

That's not how power-scaling works. You have to provide feats and statements in support of GT Goku and Vegeta being comparable to their Super versions.

Simply saying "They're all prodigies so hypothetically they can be as strong as I want" isn't enough.

You brought the whole prodigy thing up! I just used Super’s own story progression to prove my point on how someone doesn’t need God Ki to fight a God ki user and explain how being a “Prodigy” is little more than a hyperbole statement used to justify an absurd power jump or to build tension in letting us know that Goku and co are in for some stiff competition and that’s for the franchise as a whole not just Super.

There are no real feats to compare and contrast really, SS1 Goku in GT is stronger than Boo and so is Red SSGod in Super. SS4 Goku is Really Really fast and so is Vegetto Blue. SS4 Goku is Stronger than SS1 Goku which is stronger than Boo and Gogeta Blue is Stroger than Blue Goku who’s stronger than Boo. It’s all relative.

The only official source we have to go off, like stated above is DBHeroes which depicts SS4 and Blue being dead even at worst and at best a hypothetical “Super”esque Goku needing to tap into a COMPLETE Ultra Instinct in order to best his “GT”esque counter part, which means SS4 could roughly scale to Jiren, who’s stronger than Belmod, who as far as we know is no slouch as a God of Destruction.

But Super Goku does have an important feat, that's the point. You are just deciding that the feat is no longer valid because... it's been 10 years and feats have an "expiration date", I guess?

Even though following arcs nod and wink at the universal feats from BoG. Kefla in the Anime version of the ToP stated that she could destroy the Universe with one blow, and Gogeta and Broly shattered dimensional bonds as mentioned above.

It’s not about ignoring the feat. Crazy displays of strength are really only relative to the battle or moments at hand. Z has more impressive feats of strength than GT but we still know that the GT versions of the characters are stronger because it takes place after and it’s implied that they kept up some level training during the time skip. Vegeta blows up two planets with his fingers before arriving to Earth in the Saiyan arc, NONE of the GT villains do anything half as impressive but we know they’re stronger.

Same with Super, we know the characters are stronger than they were in Z especially once Goku and Vegeta fully tap into the God Ki but the feats of strength aren’t that much more impressive than what we see in Z. Gotenks and Boo blew holes through reality with their breath! But we know Blue Goku and Golden Freeza, Hit and Rose Zamasu are stronger than Gotenks and Boo yet they don’t do anything as impressive. Hell in the Super Manga, Mastered UI Goku clashes fists with Moro who has absorbed Angel Powers and the Earth is totally fine let alone the entire universe.

GT and Super both take place after the fight with Boo but chronologically two very different points in time. To me it’a a little open ended on how they compare to each other strength wise and that’s really because per my original point Super has shown on numerous occasions past Battle of Gods that you don’t need God ki to contend with God Ki users.

[Koitsukai]

Considering that Super Vegetto is compared to Baby arc SS4 Goku, and Baby Vegeta is compared to Gohan Boo.
I think Super Vegetto, due to how Gogeta performed in Broly, was probably close to or even stronger than BoG SSG, but the fact is that Super characters get exponentially stronger past BoG.

But owing to GT Goku's superior base battle power, if anything, SS4 being equal to Blue is proof that it has an inferior multiplier. To me, it's probably more comparable as a multiplier to SSG, since both are the next form past 3. I've always equated the two as a x10 SS3 multiplier, and only hold GT Goku relative to Blueku due to the difference in base battle powers.

While I agree with the conclusion that the higher DBS forms make up for their weaker base forms, there are a couple of things I don't agree with.
1) SS4 Goku was compared to a non-existing GT Vegito, not to Z Vegito. The implication was that you reach the same town going down the SS4 route or fusing with the potara. VB1 was said to be above Buuhan already, and he still needed 2 more forms to match Goku and still lost. I reckon Z Vegito would be matched by VB2, if not defeated.
BoG implied SSG is more than potara fusion, even though I agree it was never meant to include an unseen SS3 Vegito.

2) Fusion depends on the fusees. If their real/full power is 10, they produce a *100k fusion. If it is 100k, they produce a fusion of *10,000k. Like you said, characters get exponentianlly stronger past BoG and so should their fusions.
Just like, if we go back in time, probably a Saiyan/Namek arc potara fusion would be obliterated by a regular SS from the latter arcs of Z.

*just examples to make a point.

[Kaboom]

I only have my phone right now so I can't make a more intricate post myself, but... Yeah, more or less what Koitsukai said. The GT Animanga tidbit only vaguely compared "Vegetto" to "Super Saiyan 4," it did not specifically say "Super Vegetto from Z is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku from GT."

And since GT itself suggested that Z Vegetto was already surpassed by Stage-2 Baby-Vegeta (when he became the "greatest Saiyan power" after his first stage already kicked Goku's ass), then SS4 Goku would be waaaaaay above that. Potentially a whole 100 times stronger, based on how he and Baby's turns going Golden Ape each worked out.

Which reminds me — thematically speaking, Super Saiyan 4 itself wouldn't be the "next stage above SS3" equivalent to Super Saiyan God... That would be Golden Ape.

[super michael]

I only have my phone right now so I can't make a more intricate post myself, but... Yeah, more or less what Koitsukai said. The GT Animanga tidbit only vaguely compared "Vegetto" to "Super Saiyan 4," it did not specifically say "Super Vegetto from Z is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku from GT."

And since GT itself suggested that Z Vegetto was already surpassed by Stage-2 Baby-Vegeta (when he became the "greatest Saiyan power" after his first stage already kicked Goku's ass), then SS4 Goku would be waaaaaay above that. Potentially a whole 100 times stronger, based on how he and Baby's turns going Golden Ape each worked out.

Which reminds me — thematically speaking, Super Saiyan 4 itself wouldn't be the "next stage above SS3" equivalent to Super Saiyan God... That would be Golden Ape.

Even if someone says Rildo is only comparable to Mr Boo, that is only Base Rildo while suppressed. It doesn't take into account his power up and his two transformation.

Goku needed to use SSJ against Rildo, which makes him stronger than any version of Boo.

[Shintoki]

Considering that Super Vegetto is compared to Baby arc SS4 Goku, and Baby Vegeta is compared to Gohan Boo.
I think Super Vegetto, due to how Gogeta performed in Broly, was probably close to or even stronger than BoG SSG, but the fact is that Super characters get exponentially stronger past BoG.

But owing to GT Goku's superior base battle power, if anything, SS4 being equal to Blue is proof that it has an inferior multiplier. To me, it's probably more comparable as a multiplier to SSG, since both are the next form past 3. I've always equated the two as a x10 SS3 multiplier, and only hold GT Goku relative to Blueku due to the difference in base battle powers.

While I agree with the conclusion that the higher DBS forms make up for their weaker base forms, there are a couple of things I don't agree with.
1) SS4 Goku was compared to a non-existing GT Vegito, not to Z Vegito.

*just examples to make a point.

But why would they show an image of Z Vegito? Moreover, the same text references "Super Vegito," which, by your logic, would suggest it's GT Super Vegito. Considering that fusions have been portrayed as being in a league of their own, even compared to the God forms in DBS, this would, by your reasoning, imply not only that the SS4 far power-up surpasses the God forms but also that it's on par with Super Vegito in GT. Alternatively, it could suggest that the fusion formula in GT is vastly inferior to the one in DBS if you wanna go the otherway about it, but neither of the two cases seem like something Toei would go for.

To me, this interpretation feels like a "pick your poison" scenario, and I find it hard to buy into personally.

I only have my phone right now so I can't make a more intricate post myself, but... Yeah, more or less what Koitsukai said. The GT Animanga tidbit only vaguely compared "Vegetto" to "Super Saiyan 4," it did not specifically say "Super Vegetto from Z is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku from GT."

And since GT itself suggested that Z Vegetto was already surpassed by Stage-2 Baby-Vegeta (when he became the "greatest Saiyan power" after his first stage already kicked Goku's ass), then SS4 Goku would be waaaaaay above that. Potentially a whole 100 times stronger, based on how he and Baby's turns going Golden Ape each worked out.

Which reminds me — thematically speaking, Super Saiyan 4 itself wouldn't be the "next stage above SS3" equivalent to Super Saiyan God... That would be Golden Ape.

isn't that interpretation of stage 2 baby vegeta an ultra-high ball tho? the same could be said about base janmeba then who had been benchmarked in a similar manner?

I only have my phone right now so I can't make a more intricate post myself, but... Yeah, more or less what Koitsukai said. The GT Animanga tidbit only vaguely compared "Vegetto" to "Super Saiyan 4," it did not specifically say "Super Vegetto from Z is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku from GT."

And since GT itself suggested that Z Vegetto was already surpassed by Stage-2 Baby-Vegeta (when he became the "greatest Saiyan power" after his first stage already kicked Goku's ass), then SS4 Goku would be waaaaaay above that. Potentially a whole 100 times stronger, based on how he and Baby's turns going Golden Ape each worked out.

Which reminds me — thematically speaking, Super Saiyan 4 itself wouldn't be the "next stage above SS3" equivalent to Super Saiyan God... That would be Golden Ape.

Even if someone says Rildo is only comparable to Mr Boo, that is only Base Rildo while suppressed. It doesn't take into account his power up and his two transformation.

Goku needed to use SSJ against Rildo, which makes him stronger than any version of Boo.

you'd have to assume that the gaps between mr boo and buuhan is less than 50 times which is just preposterous imo

[sunsetshimmer]

Do we talk about base forms or transformations?

In base forms GT is way stronger i'd say. Goku and Vegeta in Super doesn't seem to be much different from their Z versions when not using god forms. Base forms in GT, especially for Goku, were ridiculous strong sometimes. To the point i would risk saying base GT Goku could beat SSJ3 Super Goku.

If we talk about transformations: Who knows. Super might have stronger forms. I'd assume UI Goku is stronger than SSJ4 Goku. But we have no official 100% accurate info about any of that. I just stick to the only official comparison which is games where SSJ4 is mostly considered equal to SSJ Blue. But Super fails to show power of god forms after BoG arc. Blue is basically pathetic for entire Super and makes it look like having god ki means nothing cause most Super antagonists doesn't have it. It isn't until UI that you can really feel Goku being powerful again.

If i were to make the most fair and logical comparison for the sake of franchise, also basing on any official content we have, using late GT and late Super base forms when talking about all the forms, i'd say:

GT Base/SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3 >> Super Base/SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3
-Golden Oozaru <= SSJ God
-SSJ4 = SSJ Blue
-SFPS4 = SSJ Blue Evolution
-SFPS4 Limit Breaker = UI Omen

[Yuji]

Do we talk about base forms or transformations?

In base forms GT is way stronger i'd say. Goku and Vegeta in Super doesn't seem to be much different from their Z versions when not using god forms. Base forms in GT, especially for Goku, were ridiculous strong sometimes. To the point i would risk saying base GT Goku could beat SSJ3 Super Goku.

If we talk about transformations: Who knows. Super might have stronger forms. I'd assume UI Goku is stronger than SSJ4 Goku. But we have no official 100% accurate info about any of that. I just stick to the only official comparison which is games where SSJ4 is mostly considered equal to SSJ Blue. But Super fails to show power of god forms after BoG arc. Blue is basically pathetic for entire Super and makes it look like having god ki means nothing cause most Super antagonists doesn't have it. It isn't until UI that you can really feel Goku being powerful again.

If i were to make the most fair and logical comparison for the sake of franchise, also basing on any official content we have, using late GT and late Super base forms when talking about all the forms, i'd say:

GT Base/SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3 >> Super Base/SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3
-Golden Oozaru <= SSJ God
-SSJ4 = SSJ Blue
-SFPS4 = SSJ Blue Evolution
-SFPS4 Limit Breaker = UI Omen

Limit Breaker SS4 does not exist in GT.

[sunsetshimmer]

Limit Breaker SS4 does not exist in GT.

Yep, but it's related to SSJ4. Even though Xeno Goku and Goku from Heroes are not exactly GT and Super, they use these forms so we have at least some kind of comparison. If SSJ4 and Blue are considered about equal in games and SFPS4 LB and UI Omen are considered about equal in Heroes i would assume regular SFPS4 from GT could be comparable to SSJBE following that pattern.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Super has more power ups in the forms of training and transformations, so it’s hard for GT to compete. Going by Heroes, they’re comparable in equivalent forms as others have said. Personally I’d say Xeno = Post ToP > GT = RoF.

As for Z Vegetto, I dare say he’s fodder in both series. Base Vegetto has nothing placing him above Majin Boo like base Goku has, so SSJ Goku is already surpassing Vegetto. In DBS Goku says “Even with fusion, I don’t think I can win”, which doesn’t really leave a lot of room for ambiguity. It’s not like he said “I might not win” or “Idk if I could win”.

[Yuji]

Super has more power ups in the forms of training and transformations, so it’s hard for GT to compete. Going by Heroes, they’re comparable in equivalent forms as others have said. Personally I’d say Xeno = Post ToP > GT = RoF.

As for Z Vegetto, I dare say he’s fodder in both series. Base Vegetto has nothing placing him above Majin Boo like base Goku has, so SSJ Goku is already surpassing Vegetto. In DBS Goku says “Even with fusion, I don’t think I can win”, which doesn’t really leave a lot of room for ambiguity. It’s not like he said “I might not win” or “Idk if I could win”.

Base Vegetto is stronger than at least Super Boo in the anime and Goku does not force Beerus to use even 1% of his power in SSG, so his estimations in BoG aren't worth considering seriously.

[Shintoki]

Limit Breaker SS4 does not exist in GT.

Yep, but it's related to SSJ4. Even though Xeno Goku and Goku from Heroes are not exactly GT and Super, they use these forms so we have at least some kind of comparison. If SSJ4 and Blue are considered about equal in games and SFPS4 LB and UI Omen are considered about equal in Heroes i would assume regular SFPS4 from GT could be comparable to SSJBE following that pattern.

you would have to add universal blue to DBS goku tho if we're to follow that logic and pattern then

even if u wanna use xeno's goku with CC goku as a benchmark for the sake of a hypothethical comparison between GT and DBS goku, then you have to acknowledge that CC UI omen was having the upper hand on the fight against SS4LB xeno goku so they aren't really that comparable.

this is more like it
SS4=SSB
mastered SSB = FPSS4

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Vegetto is stronger than at least Super Boo in the anime and Goku does not force Beerus to use even 1% of his power in SSG, so his estimations in BoG aren't worth considering seriously.

And GT base Goku is stronger than Kid Boo with the anime hax. At the time Goku believed he was forcing Beerus to use a significant portion of his power.

[Yuji]

Base Vegetto is stronger than at least Super Boo in the anime and Goku does not force Beerus to use even 1% of his power in SSG, so his estimations in BoG aren't worth considering seriously.

And GT base Goku is stronger than Kid Boo with the anime hax. At the time Goku believed he was forcing Beerus to use a significant portion of his power.

But he wasn't. At the time of BoG, SSG > SS3 Vegetto was a legitimate argument because SSG was legitimately 70% of Beerus. Now it's less than 1%. Goku was just wrong on all accounts. He is not able to estimate Beerus' true power. He chose to fight Beerus in SSG regardless as a last resort to save the Earth. He knew, prior to the ritual, fusion wouldn't cut it. What he didn't know was that SSG wouldn't cut it either. After the ritual was done, he had no reason to think of the Potara, even if it were the more effective method.

[sunsetshimmer]

Yeah Goku said he wouldn't have a chance against Beerus with fusion. But he didn't have a chance as SSG either. Some people still believe SSJ TMB* Vegeta actually forced Beerus to use 10%.

Anything said or shown in BoG is irrelevant in next arcs really. God ki itself was nerfed to the point it meant nothing since RoF. Something that was meant to be absolutely beyond mortal ki was surpassed by Namek-level Frieza in 4 months. Something that was meant to allow Goku rival god of destruction himself somehow quickly wasn't enough to beat mere mortals even though Goku and Vegeta supposed to become much stronger since BoG and had new forms. BoG story worked great as a standalone story making one of the best movies in franchise. But going with next movie and building entire series from that was huge mistake.

Spoiler:

*SSJ That's My Bulma

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But he wasn't. At the time of BoG, SSG > SS3 Vegetto was a legitimate argument because SSG was legitimately 70% of Beerus. Now it's less than 1%. Goku was just wrong on all accounts. He is not able to estimate Beerus' true power. He chose to fight Beerus in SSG regardless as a last resort to save the Earth. He knew, prior to the ritual, fusion wouldn't cut it. What he didn't know was that SSG wouldn't cut it either. After the ritual was done, he had no reason to think of the Potara, even if it were the more effective method.

As far as Goku knew, SSJG came pretty close to cutting it. Beerus kept baiting him too pretending Goku was giving him a run for his money. Goku talking about how the form goes beyond anything he could imagine is pretty convincing too.