Which was the better sequel: GT, Super, or Daima ?

[PhantomSaiyan]

but Super was way more entertaining and even when it was bad it was fun to make fun of it, Daima was painfully boring for most of it

That's subjective, not a real criticism. The show does have writing issues like you've said, but whether it's entertaining or not is up to each individual viewer.

none cared about it until the episodes with the new transformations aired

I don't think so. Once again, you can only speak for yourself, I cared, and talked about it with plenty of people who cared, so implying that nobody did is simply wrong
And even we assume that you are right and not many people cared, it still doesn't mean much, popular doesn't automatically mean good, it can't be a metric to judge quality.

[YamiGoku]

but Super was way more entertaining and even when it was bad it was fun to make fun of it, Daima was painfully boring for most of it

That's subjective, not a real criticism. The show does have writing issues like you've said, but whether it's entertaining or not is up to each individual viewer.

none cared about it until the episodes with the new transformations aired

I don't think so. Once again, you can only speak for yourself, I cared, and talked about it with plenty of people who cared, so implying that nobody did is simply wrong
And even we assume that you are right and not many people cared, it still doesn't mean much, popular doesn't automatically mean good, it can't be a metric to judge quality.

Yes but the person I responded said Daima > Super is a fact(wich is not is just an opinion) so I did the same from my side.


Also Daima was dead on social media for most of its run, I dont care to debate it but, I think the lack of interest on Daima until Vegeta turn SSJ3 was painfully obvious, yes "you cared", I cared too I was here every week like multiple people on this forum. but none on twitter or any of the big social media platforms was making anny fuss about it until then.

Its fine liking Daima over Super, what I personally don't like is when some act like Daima was the perfect DB series, or say that Daima over Super is a fact, when Daima had a lot of bad parts that someone like me doesn't like.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Yes but the person I responded said Daima > Super is a fact(wich is not is just an opinion) so I did the same from my side.


Also Daima was dead on social media for most of its run, I dont care to debate it but, I think the lack of interest on Daima until Vegeta turn SSJ3 was painfully obvious, yes "you cared", I cared too I was here every week like multiple people on this forum. but none on twitter or any of the big social media platforms was making anny fuss about it until then.

Its fine liking Daima over Super, what I personally don't like is when some act like Daima was the perfect DB series, or say that Daima over Super is a fact, when Daima had a lot of bad parts that someone like me doesn't like.

I see what you mean about the discussion about daima being a lot less prevalent compared to super, I attibute that mainly to marketing and distribution of the show. I know a lot of people who didn't even know it was coming out, where it was coming out, and plenty of others who were a week behind because they were watching it on netflix. On that fron toei messed up. And perhaps the content of the early series wasn't really suited for hype culture like super was.

And yeah obviously I can't agree with the other person either, I might prefer daima over super but I wouldn't say it's a fact that it's objectively better, they both their own fair share of problems, and good things about them, different strenghts and different weaknesses. At most I might say that it has objectively more consistent animation and a better production schedule.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The person I responded said Daima > Super is a fact.

It is, but that doesn't mean you can't prefer Super over it.

[super michael]

The Future Trunks saga and the major fights of the ToP were genuinely entertaining and spectacular.

No they weren't. Both arcs had some of the worst writing this franchise has ever produced.

I don't care only about writing so I can overlook "bad writing" if the antagonists are enjoyable to watch and the fights are entertaining.

Not everyone considers writing to be a deal-breaker. That's why I also enjoy the final kamehameha between Gohan and Cell despite the utterly atrocious writing throughout the arc that led to that moment.

Everyone has their preference in what matters in a anime more, it could be writing, fights, art style, comedy, etc. There is no wrong answer when it comes to preference.
If you don't care about bad writing, that is also acceptable.


As for me I didn't enjoy DBS writing and how they handled some characters, DBS just takes things too far which becomes annoying at some point.

Goku, Chi Chi, Boo, Goten and Trunks are the characters written bad in DBS. Goku acts like a clown, Chi Chi a control freak, Boo is lazy, Goten is forbidden from training and sparring and Trunks is forbidden from training and fighting.

[SupremeKai25]

No they weren't. Both arcs had some of the worst writing this franchise has ever produced.

I don't care only about writing so I can overlook "bad writing" if the antagonists are enjoyable to watch and the fights are entertaining.

Not everyone considers writing to be a deal-breaker. That's why I also enjoy the final kamehameha between Gohan and Cell despite the utterly atrocious writing throughout the arc that led to that moment.

Everyone has their preference in what matters in a anime more, it could be writing, fights, art style, comedy, etc. There is no wrong answer when it comes to preference.
If you don't care about bad writing, that is also acceptable.

If I cared about bad writing, I wouldn't have enjoyed the Cell and Buu sagas when I first watched them.

I consider myself thankful that I could ignore the atrocious writing (constantly changing main villains, all the nonsense surrounding Super Perfect Cell, Super Saiyan bargain sale for kids, Gohan's defeat because he couldn't pick up an earring, etc.)

Truly, I do not think I would have been able to enjoy the Cell and Buu sagas as I did if I cared strongly about good writing.

[super michael]

I don't care only about writing so I can overlook "bad writing" if the antagonists are enjoyable to watch and the fights are entertaining.

Not everyone considers writing to be a deal-breaker. That's why I also enjoy the final kamehameha between Gohan and Cell despite the utterly atrocious writing throughout the arc that led to that moment.

Everyone has their preference in what matters in a anime more, it could be writing, fights, art style, comedy, etc. There is no wrong answer when it comes to preference.
If you don't care about bad writing, that is also acceptable.

If I cared about bad writing, I wouldn't have enjoyed the Cell and Buu sagas when I first watched them.

I consider myself thankful that I could ignore the atrocious writing (constantly changing main villains, all the nonsense surrounding Super Perfect Cell, Super Saiyan bargain sale for kids, Gohan's defeat because he couldn't pick up an earring, etc.)

Truly, I do not think I would have been able to enjoy the Cell and Buu sagas as I did if I cared strongly about good writing.

In the Cell Saga they did change the main villain two times, first it was A19 and C20, then it was A16, C17 and C18 and then it was Cell who comes from the future. Although I didn't have a problem with that.

Cell does have Saiyan DNA, so getting a huge Zenkai from a near death experience does make sense. Can't get closer to death than regenerating from 1 single cell. Plus getting Goku latest DNA helped him.

Goten and Trunks are the very first Saiyan to be born from Super Saiyan parents, before Saiyan parents didn't have Super Saiyan. Plus in Saiyan society it is possible for Saiyan to be born with high power level.

Technically Gohan didn't lose due to dropping the Potara, he got absorbed by Super Boo from a sneak attack.


I was able to enjoy Toriyama Dragon Ball manga completely. The same is true for me with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z anime.

[ZombieVito]

In the Cell Saga they did change the main villain two times, first it was A19 and C20, then it was A16, C17 and C18 and then it was Cell who comes from the future. Although I didn't have a problem with that.

Cell does have Saiyan DNA, so getting a huge Zenkai from a near death experience does make sense. Can't get closer to death than regenerating from 1 single cell. Plus getting Goku latest DNA helped him.

Goten and Trunks are the very first Saiyan to be born from Super Saiyan parents, before Saiyan parents didn't have Super Saiyan. Plus in Saiyan society it is possible for Saiyan to be born with high power level.

Technically Gohan didn't lose due to dropping the Potara, he got absorbed by Super Boo from a sneak attack.


I was able to enjoy Toriyama Dragon Ball manga completely. The same is true for me with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z anime.

Huh?

Cell doesn't have Goku's latest DNA. That's why Piccolo called his Kamehameha weak.

Was Vegeta already a Super Saiyan when he conceived Trunks?

[super michael]

In the Cell Saga they did change the main villain two times, first it was A19 and C20, then it was A16, C17 and C18 and then it was Cell who comes from the future. Although I didn't have a problem with that.

Cell does have Saiyan DNA, so getting a huge Zenkai from a near death experience does make sense. Can't get closer to death than regenerating from 1 single cell. Plus getting Goku latest DNA helped him.

Goten and Trunks are the very first Saiyan to be born from Super Saiyan parents, before Saiyan parents didn't have Super Saiyan. Plus in Saiyan society it is possible for Saiyan to be born with high power level.

Technically Gohan didn't lose due to dropping the Potara, he got absorbed by Super Boo from a sneak attack.


I was able to enjoy Toriyama Dragon Ball manga completely. The same is true for me with Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z anime.

Huh?

Cell doesn't have Goku's latest DNA. That's why Piccolo called his Kamehameha weak.

Was Vegeta already a Super Saiyan when he conceived Trunks?

Cell got Goku latest DNA when Goku used his IT to Kaio Planet, so Cell doesn't destroy the earth. When Cell regenerated he got a Zenkai boost and managed to absorb Goku latest DNA, that is how Cell was able to use IT himself.
When Cell battled against Piccolo, he had Goku DNA from the Saiyan Saga, I know at that time his Kamehameha was weak for that reason.

We don't know when Vegeta achieved SSJ, maybe he unlocked it before or after Trunks was born.

[ZombieVito]

Cell got Goku latest DNA when Goku used his IT to Kaio Planet, so Cell doesn't destroy the earth. When Cell regenerated he got a Zenkai boost and managed to absorb Goku latest DNA, that is how Cell was able to use IT himself.
When Cell battled against Piccolo, he had Goku DNA from the Saiyan Saga, I know at that time his Kamehameha was weak for that reason.

Nani?

Is this said anywhere?

[super michael]

Cell got Goku latest DNA when Goku used his IT to Kaio Planet, so Cell doesn't destroy the earth. When Cell regenerated he got a Zenkai boost and managed to absorb Goku latest DNA, that is how Cell was able to use IT himself.
When Cell battled against Piccolo, he had Goku DNA from the Saiyan Saga, I know at that time his Kamehameha was weak for that reason.

Nani?

Is this said anywhere?

I checked the manga and anime, looks like I made a mistake. Cell just learned Goku IT, he didn't absorb anything.

[GokuHater]

I don't care only about writing so I can overlook "bad writing" if the antagonists are enjoyable to watch and the fights are entertaining.

Not everyone considers writing to be a deal-breaker. That's why I also enjoy the final kamehameha between Gohan and Cell despite the utterly atrocious writing throughout the arc that led to that moment.

Everyone has their preference in what matters in a anime more, it could be writing, fights, art style, comedy, etc. There is no wrong answer when it comes to preference.
If you don't care about bad writing, that is also acceptable.

If I cared about bad writing, I wouldn't have enjoyed the Cell and Buu sagas when I first watched them.

I consider myself thankful that I could ignore the atrocious writing (constantly changing main villains, all the nonsense surrounding Super Perfect Cell, Super Saiyan bargain sale for kids, Gohan's defeat because he couldn't pick up an earring, etc.)

Truly, I do not think I would have been able to enjoy the Cell and Buu sagas as I did if I cared strongly about good writing.

I would actually argue swapping up villains in Cell saga is an example of Toryiama doing GOOD writing.

We all know why 19 and 20 were changed to 17 and 18 and then to Cell.

The editors really just seemed to have an ego contest and nitpick about his designs from Androids to Cell to semi perfect Cell.

Toryiama wasn't in an ideal situation right then. But he managed to craft a story which at least somewhat logically managed to tie in all of these villains and even fool some readers this was the plan from the start.

I don't see Cell saga as a peek of Toryiama writing but we should give credit where credit is due.

Buu saga was more of an example of Toryiama not being able to make up his mind who the main hero is going to be.

Besides I do enjoy the plot twists in these old saga, no matter what was the reason.
Super has a problem in which most of its villains and stories are static and stay the same to the end - apart from Moro and Granolah which actually are the most similar to "Z".
And I enjoy all the twists and turns along the way.

[SupremeKai25]

Super has a problem in which most of its villains and stories are static and stay the same to the end - apart from Moro and Granolah which

Uhm, Zamasu went from a troubled student to a mad eldritch horror in 20 episodes.

I'd hardly call that "staying the same to the end".

[GokuHater]

Super has a problem in which most of its villains and stories are static and stay the same to the end - apart from Moro and Granolah which

Uhm, Zamasu went from a troubled student to a mad eldritch horror in 20 episodes.

I'd hardly call that "staying the same to the end".

In the anime it was a bit of going from a trouble student to a madman, in manga he seemed more like a psycho from the start.

But still, I didn't mean character development itself - beacuse that Zamasu does have - I mean the story development itself .

Once Zamasu is shown as a villain we never get anything new besides fighting with Black and Zamas in the future, do we?

[SupremeKai25]

Super has a problem in which most of its villains and stories are static and stay the same to the end - apart from Moro and Granolah which

Uhm, Zamasu went from a troubled student to a mad eldritch horror in 20 episodes.

I'd hardly call that "staying the same to the end".

In the anime it was a bit of going from a trouble student to a madman, in manga he seemed more like a psycho from the start.

But still, I didn't mean character development itself - beacuse that Zamasu does have - I mean the story development itself .

Once Zamasu is shown as a villain we never get anything new besides fighting with Black and Zamas in the future, do we?

My point exactly, and I see that as a strength of the arc.

Why should I like a storyline where 19 and 20 are the main villains, no actually we got the wrong androids it's 17 and 18, no actually there's a bug man Trunks didn't know about, wait but that bug man actually has 3 forms, also that bug man comes from another another Trunks timeline... yeah, nope!

I vastly prefer the way the Future Trunks saga does its twists. The arc establishes that Goku Black is the main threat, and Goku Black remains the main threat until the end. No baits and switches. No surprise villains.

Even the "plot twist" that Black had an accomplice was telegraphed from the first episode because Black wore one Potara earring, so clearly there must have been someone else who wore the other earring.

At least the story of the Future Trunks saga was planned from beginning to end. The story in those 20 episodes is the story Toriyama wanted to tell. Everything was set-up, everything was established from the start, the storytelling was clean and elegant.

The Cell saga is... what? 80 episodes? Maybe even 100? Such a convoluted and confusing mess. You don't need 100 episodes to tell a well-planned and well-structured arc.

[GokuHater]

To each their own I guess.

Some people prefer one established villain and story beat from begining to end, others like twists and turns.

Still, I can't really hold that against Toryiama writing skills where he was forced to swap villains in a story because reasons. In the Buu saga on the other hand, yeah, that's entirely his planning or lack there off.

All in all I'd rather have a well thought out story, which can surprise you still along the way but I still think it's impressive Tori was able to "mask" his writing on the spot.

[SupremeKai25]

To each their own I guess.

Some people prefer one established villain and story beat from begining to end, others like twists and turns.

Still, I can't really hold that against Toryiama writing skills where he was forced to swap villains in a story because reasons. In the Buu saga on the other hand, yeah, that's entirely his planning or lack there off.

All in all I'd rather have a well thought out story, which can surprise you still along the way but I still think it's impressive Tori was able to "mask" his writing on the spot.

And I'm much happier that Toriyama could finally come up with new stories without the editors breathing down his neck and having to make a new chapter every week.

Some will claim that Toriyama is just surrounded by yes-men (of the Dragon Room I suppose) who accept any slop, but that's such a crude way of putting it.

I value work ethics above the phantomatic and so-called "artistic integrity" that I read so much about online (yet can never find a definition for).

[MasenkoHA]

To each their own I guess.

Some people prefer one established villain and story beat from begining to end, others like twists and turns.

Still, I can't really hold that against Toryiama writing skills where he was forced to swap villains in a story because reasons. In the Buu saga on the other hand, yeah, that's entirely his planning or lack there off.

All in all I'd rather have a well thought out story, which can surprise you still along the way but I still think it's impressive Tori was able to "mask" his writing on the spot.

He wasn’t forced to swap villains. The editor in question who made fun of 19 and 20 and then 17 and 18 was his former editor and had no actual authority over Toriyama. Toriyama just respected Torishima’s feedback enough to listen.

I dunno the fandom’s fixation on the changing big bads of the Artificial Human arc as “bad writing” has always baffled me. Never once did I think “oh yeah 19 and 20 are worthy follows up to Frieza” or “damn why weren’t 17 and 18 the big bads?”


“You thought this was the big bad but ACTUALLY this was the real threat” trope happens all the times in fiction and other than Trunks referencing 19 and 20 by name in the manga the transition is pretty damn seamless.

There’s definitely some weak writing in the Cell saga. Bulma and Vegeta getting together stretches all suspension of disbelief, Vegeta realizing he cares about Trunks and being remorseful feels forced, there’s little set up to Gohan being the main hero and he has to learn the exact same lesson he already learned in the Saiyan arc. But, I think most of it speaks to Toriyama’s actual weakness as a writer i.e not caring too much about “character stuff”. What the fandom perceives to be his weakness, writing by the seat of his pants, I never could agree with. He’s actually really good at that 99 percent of the time.

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

Even Garlic Jr. and his minions (pick whatever continuity) were better villains than Gomah and Degesu (and their subordinates, especially the Gendarmerie Force!) in my opinion. This just proves that the creator of a franchise isn't always a good storyteller.

[SupremeKai25]

I dunno the fandom’s fixation on the changing big bads of the Artificial Human arc as “bad writing” has always baffled me. Never once did I think “oh yeah 19 and 20 are worthy follows up to Frieza” or “damn why weren’t 17 and 18 the big bads?”

Yet you didn't answer the question. Why aren't 17 and 18 the big bads? They are the big threat that appeared in the history of Trunks, they have enough power to crush the opposition, and they have a single-minded purpose of destroying Goku.

Cell's existence was not required. Cell didn't add anything that the Androids didn't already have. A villain who uses everyone else's powers? Toriyama could have simply said Gero rebuilt the teenagers using the other fighters' cells. Cell was hardly required for the story to function.

And why can't take you 17 and 18 seriously as the big bads? Because they are teenagers? Seriously? Like the main protagonist of that saga didn't end up being an elementary school kid.

Just because you never thought about it doesn't mean it's not a valid criticism.