Daima to Super Connection

[Grimlock]

Daima actually fits if you watch it after Battle of Gods, rather than before.

Since I see you saying this over and over, it's probably time I say that Trunks' age prevents Dragon Ball Daima from taking place in any other year that isn't AGE 775 (that is before Movie 14).

Zeno is no longer the creator of the universe

He never was stated to be.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Since I see you saying this over and over, it's probably time I say that Trunks' age prevents Dragon Ball Daima from taking place in any other year that isn't AGE 775 (that is before Movie 14).

I know; I'm just saying that there are less contradictions if you watch it after. It was clearly written to not fit before or after the movie, it just coincidentally happens to make more sense after rather than before.

[taikufuru]

I think it was you who didn't understand my point.

The Garlic Jr. movie is part of the Dragon Ball Z continuity. This is explicitly stated in the series itself, whether you like the content or not, whether you find it incoherent or not. That's what I'm talking about.

It's not about being good or bad, incoherent or coherent, it's about what the series is. The Garlic Jr arc exist and are available to watch. They are part of the 291 episodes of the series.

(In fact, there is no explicit reference to the events of the other films, only Garlic Jr)

You keep not understanding while telling me that I'm the one who didn't understand

Let me try again. Yes, I already acknowledged that Garlic Jr is part of the continuity, it's literally in my comment! What I'm saying is that since it is canon to dbz, the Movie 1 has to be canon, and there's no place in the timeline to properly fit it, so it only creates plot holes and inconsistencies with the main plot. When does that movie take place? Clearly before raditz, it can't happen after, but we know that the Raditz fight is the first Goku and Piccolo teamup. Forcing it to fit only caues problems with the narrative: it's clear they haven't seen themselves since the 23 Tenkaichi Tournament.
Same with the other examples that I provided of the time chamber and the villains keeping their bodies. Nobody is arguing they're not part of the anime, the point is that them being there does nothing but fill dragonball with even more plot holes and problems of internal logic.
So my original point, that the fans tend to ignore fillers because the show itself does most of the time, still stands. Sure they're part of the continuity technically but they're shoved in the backdrawer, if the show cared they would have offerend explanations and modified the manga material accordingly to make things fit.

Don't think about it so much then. Those original ideas from the anime staff are cool, if anything they should modify the comic material when adapting it to let their original ideas work within the internal continuity of the animated projects.

It doesn't bother me that much, I just wanted to let taikufuru understand that the anime is absolutely not coherent within intself. Stuff like Garlic Jr being part of the continuity of dbz is obviously true, but that doesn't mean that his placement is any less jarring and forced. That first movie literaly can't happen in the timeline that we are shown.
I agree with you that if the anime wanted to go its own route then it should have modified the manga material accordingly to make everything flow seamlessly, but they didn't do that. They could have modified the line about only good and honorable souls keeping their bodies for example.

It doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't fit completely into the TV series, just like countless things don't fit into the original manga, but IT HAPPENED anyway.

The movie is explicitly referenced as part of that continuity. It shouldn't be swept under the rug, the series never did that.

Besides, there wasn't much that could be done to mitigate these inconsistencies because the Saiya-jin arc was finished and there was no way to include any storylines involving any previous battle involving Garlic Jr.

They never contradict the events of the Garlic Jr arc, consequently the first movie, in the following arcs. Maron would still appear a little more, as well as the Ultra Sacred Water would return in Dragon Ball GT, a sequel to Dragon Ball Z.

"Ah, let's ignore that!"

It's just arbitrary.

I've cited countless examples where original content/filler is linked to events adapted directly from the manga, when it doesn't replace them, as is the case with the Piccolo Daimaō arc and the adventures of the Great Saiyaman.

[PhantomSaiyan]

It doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't fit completely into the TV series, just like countless things don't fit into the original manga, but IT HAPPENED anyway.

I don't know how many more ways I can explain this for you to understand what I mean. I'm not saying it didn't happen or that the fillers in Z didn't happen. They all happened and that's the problem, the way most of them are written ruin the flow and logic of the narrative. The fact that the original manga had inconsistencies already is no excuse, I explain it to my original comment, it's an aggravator because it means the anime makes the story EVEN MORE of a mess than it already is. And I must say, toriyama is way better than toei at bullshitting his way out of plot holes.

The movie is explicitly referenced as part of that continuity. It shouldn't be swept under the rug, the series never did that.

Besides, there wasn't much that could be done to mitigate these inconsistencies because the Saiya-jin arc was finished and there was no way to include any storylines involving any previous battle involving Garlic Jr.

Still an inconsistency. The show could have simply mitigated it the same it did with the other movies: treat them like the alternate world stories that they are without forcefully introucing them in and break the flow of events., but no, they just had to use Garlic Jr. and create a giant timeline inconsistency. Seriously, nobody forced them to introduce a plot hole movie plot into the anime timeline, they did it to themselves. There's also Z movies that are WAY more reconcilable with the main plot, so why they chose this one is beyond me.

They never contradict the events of the Garlic Jr arc, consequently the first movie, in the following arcs. Maron would still appear a little more, as well as the Ultra Sacred Water would return in Dragon Ball GT, a sequel to Dragon Ball Z.

The contradiction isn't after Garlic Jr. arc, sure. The contradiction is the movie itself being forcefully shoved before the Raditz fight, like I've been saying, that's what sucks about it.

I've cited countless examples where original content/filler is linked to events adapted directly from the manga, when it doesn't replace them, as is the case with the Piccolo Daimaō arc and the adventures of the Great Saiyaman.

That's when they do it right. I've said it in my other comment, this is the way to go if they want to integrate filler, rework the canon sections. Unfortunately, they did NOT do this for every filler instance, like the ones I mentioned over and over in my other comments (and many other examples that I don't even remember since it's been a while since I watched). If every filler was worked well like these ones we wouldn't even be having this conversation

[taikufuru]

The discussion is about continuity/canonicity. The debate arose from my assertion that the movie and the Garlic Jr. arc are canon to the Dragon Ball Z TV series, regardless of whether you think they suck or not.

By the way, I don't know where you got the idea that I said they were obligated to include Garlic Jr or that you think this is a good idea.

My point is that from this idea, there's not much that can be done about inconsistencies or retcons. That's it. It's "canon". It's valid. It's relevant. I just think it's stupid to want to diminish it, invalidate it or take away its relevance as if it were something attached to the TV series.

Again: It's not about filler being good or bad, coherent or incongruent, that's what you're not understanding. It's about respecting the show as an autonomous, singular work with a sense of unity.

I'm just going around in circles with you because I make it clear that I'm not making a value judgment (I think the Garlic Jr arc sucks), but you argue as if the discussion is about quality or execution.

All episodes are relevant and SHOULD be considered, something you are not willing to do as you said in your first answer. And I simply disagree for the reasons I have stated.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The discussion is about continuity/canonicity. The debate arose from my assertion that the movie and the Garlic Jr. arc are canon to the Dragon Ball Z TV series, regardless of whether you think they suck or not.

Did you miss the NUMEROUS times where I've said I agree on that? God, my argument is not that they suck, did you read what I've said?
Of course they're in the same continuity! The argument is that their mere presence causes problems in the timeline and adds MORE inconsistencies to the dragonball story and thus it hurts the narrative. The quality of the filler is NOT part of the argument here.

By the way, I don't know where you got the idea that I said they were obligated to include Garlic Jr or that you think this is a good idea.

At this point I'm convinced that you're reading comments from a parallel world because where did I say that?
What I've actually said is that putting in the same continuity with Z a movie that CAN'T happen in the same timeline as Z is a stupid choice that created inconsistencies and plot holes. And just as a reminder, yes, I do consider it part of the same continuity, but they tied them together in a sloppy forced and contrived way and didn't even try to explain it.
It'd be a different deal if they tied back a movie like Bojack, which can happen without screwing over the whole timeline of events.
The part about "forcing" is to make you realize that they created an inconsistency in their own show for no reason, since nobody forced them, because I repeat, the Garlic Movie CAN'T happen before the raditz fight because it's clearly Goku hasn't seen Piccolo since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

My point is that from this idea, there's not much that can be done about inconsistencies or retcons. That's it. It's "canon". It's valid. It's relevant. I just think it's stupid to want to diminish it, invalidate it or take away its relevance as if it were something attached to the TV series.

And I'm saying that they could have done things to fix it BEFORE putting them in. A few throwaway lines of dialogue. Again let me repeat, I DID NOT SAY THAT THE FILLER IS NOT VALID IN THE ANIME CONTINUITY, I DID NOT SAY THAT THE FILLER IS NOT VALID IN THE ANIME CONTINUITY, I DID NOT SAY THAT THE FILLER IS NOT VALID IN THE ANIME CONTINUITY
Hope this clears up the confusion.

Again: It's not about filler being good or bad, coherent or incongruent, that's what you're not understanding. It's about respecting the show as an autonomous, singular work with a sense of unity.

I'm telling you over and over that I am not arguing that it's about filler being good or bad, let me repeat, I am not arguing that it's about filler being good or bad, I am not arguing that it's about filler being good or bad, I am not arguing that it's about filler being good or bad.
Hope this clear it up.

I'm just going around in circles with you because I make it clear that I'm not making a value judgment (I think the Garlic Jr arc sucks), but you argue as if the discussion is about quality or execution.

Yes because you keep missing my point over and over

All episodes are relevant and SHOULD be considered, something you are not willing to do as you said in your first answer. And I simply disagree for the reasons I have stated.

For the millionth time, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, is that not clear yet? I did not say I do not consider them.
My first comment explains to you WHY most of the fanbase does not consider them.

My comment said:

I won't tell you that you're right or wrong on this, but if we consider db and dbz filler, then dragonball as a whole becomes even more of an inconsistent mess seeing how many of those fillers directly contradict the actual events of the story or just flat out cause problems just by virtue of existing

The fact that the main story of course doesn't even try to acknowledge or fix those inconsistencis doesn't help your case. True us fans ignore the filler, but it's the show itself that ignores it first and foremost

It is merely an explanation on the reason why the fandom ignores them. I did not express my opinion on them, or on their quality.
I hope you actually understand my argument here, I'm at the end of my rope here brother I don't know how else to explain to you what I'm saying lol

Let me try to sum it up: The anime filler is absolutely part of the anime continuity and I am not trying to deny that, it is one continuous autonomous work.
My argument is that the filler being there turns a story already filled with plot holes and makes it even MORE inconsistent and contrived with itself for the various reasons that I have already explained and that I hope you have read. So you shouldn't be surprised if people choose to ignore it, because their inclusion hurts the narrative more than anything by directly contradicting canon material instead of trying to write around it or slightly modify the canon material in order to make the filler additions fit (I am aware they did it sometimes like you've said, but not enough, they should have done it for every contradiction they have created)

I hope you understand what I mean this time because it feels like you've been talking with someone else entirely here, I am NOT saying what you think I am saying.

[taikufuru]

Two things:

1. People should not ignore fillers if they want to discuss the work. It's like watching a movie skipping scenes. The series are officially available with all their episodes together, ready to be watched this way;

2. And once again: There is no distinction between "canonical material", my friend. It's one thing, one work! "Filler" is "canonical material" from TV Series too!

The subject keeps coming back to something subjective involving value judgment and what "works" or "doesn't work" as if there were a consensus on this, straying from the main topic of this thread. I don't want to discuss this again. I've reached my limit.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Two things:

1. People should not ignore fillers if they want to discuss the work. It's like watching a movie skipping scenes. The series are officially available with all their episodes together, ready to be watched this way;

2. And once again: There is no distinction between "canonical material", my friend. It's one thing, one work! "Filler" is "canonical material" from TV Series too!

The subject keeps coming back to something subjective involving value judgment and what "works" or "doesn't work" as if there were a consensus on this, straying from the main topic of this thread. I don't want to discuss this again. I've reached my limit.

I give up with you, you continue to miss my point, I'm starting to think you're doing it on purpose to troll, I refuse to think you're this incapable of understanding words.

1. I never said people should ignore it, I merely explained why they do it
2. canonical material is what we refer to as the original story from the manga for convenience's sake. Stop being obtuse about this. We all know the anime is one continuous work, we are not stupid. Calling it canonical material is to facilitate discussion

Some of the fillers inclusion defintitely don't work and it's non debatable, they just don't, If they create plot holes they don't work, it's as easy as that, and the examples I brought up multiple times prove it. If they truly worked and didn't create plot holes it would have been easy for you to disprove that and prove to me that they work.

[taikufuru]

"Manga material" is more practical. It has no built-in subjectivity. You yourself called it that in previous answers. Maybe this one should ignore what you say like they do with "fillers

Let's go. Let's give you what you want.

In the original manga, Trunks warns the warriors about Androids #19 and #20, but later this is contradicted when Trunks reveals that the androids that destroyed his future are, in fact, Androids #17 and #18. Notice how the contradiction is later, not earlier. He simply rewrites what came before.

Now let's bring this example to the Garlic Jr. arc:

Yes, it contradicts the claim of five years of peace without major threats and Kuririn doesn't know Gohan until he meets him at Kame House, right?

It turns out that the inclusion of the Garlic Jr. arc simply overwrites this fact because it is a later inclusion, as well as the revelation of the androids from the future being #17 and #18. There is no ignoring a later inclusion by a previous one. It's the opposite. As a rule, what comes next is what counts.

Come on, I can cite countless examples where previously unreleased content from the anime blends well with the adapted content from the manga, as well as replacing it.

• The adventures of Pilaf's gang while Goku and Bulma search for the Dragon Balls;

• Yamcha's training for the 21st tournament;

• Goku's adventures before the 22nd tournament, including his first encounter with Tenshinhan;

• Goku and Yajirobe's search for the Super Sacred Water;

• Goku and Chichi's pre-wedding adventure;

• Gohan's training to survive in the desert;

• Goku's adventures on the snake way and hell;

• Lunch chasing Tenshinhan to Karin's Tower;

• The gang watching the battle of the Saiyans on TV and later the scene from the manga being adapted to the anime to fit in with this segment;

• Bulma and Ginyu switching bodies doesn't contradict anything either;

• Vegeta going into space to look for Goku, going through the Garlic Jr arc and returning on the day of Freeza's arrival on Earth;

• Vegeta's training to become a Super Saiyan, as well as his relationship with Bulma;

• Mr. Satan's disciples;

• The adventures of the Great Saiyaman;

• The moments of peace after the Boo arc;

There are many segments, actually. Contradictions exist in any work, I just think it's stupid to take away the relevance of all "filler" content or to diminish an entire arc as if it were not coherent with the series in most cases.

This argument that "filler must be completely ignored for things to make sense", as you said in your first reply, falls once again into subjectivity. Do you have to ignore all fillers? Do you have to ignore just some? Which ones? Who decides that? It's either all or nothing, my friend.

You say no, but you establish a hierarchy between content adapted from the manga and original content/filler. They should be given equal weight.

I hope you took your hands off your eyes so you can read and interpret what I said. I feel like I'm talking to walls instead of a real person.

[PhantomSaiyan]

"Manga material" is more practical. It has no built-in subjectivity. You yourself called it that in previous answers. Maybe this one should ignore what you say like they do with "fillers

You're just arguing about semantics here, it's irrelevant which word you personally prefer, but whatever, I'll call it manga material if you like it more, but they literally mean the same thing so you're just being petty about it.

In the original manga, Trunks warns the warriors about Androids #19 and #20, but later this is contradicted when Trunks reveals that the androids that destroyed his future are, in fact, Androids #17 and #18. Notice how the contradiction is later, not earlier. He simply rewrites what came before.

Now let's bring this example to the Garlic Jr. arc:

Yes, it contradicts the claim of five years of peace without major threats and Kuririn doesn't know Gohan until he meets him at Kame House, right?

It turns out that the inclusion of the Garlic Jr. arc simply overwrites this fact because it is a later inclusion, as well as the revelation of the androids from the future being #17 and #18. There is no ignoring a later inclusion by a previous one. It's the opposite. As a rule, what comes next is what counts.

I'll write simple so you can understand this time. Manga has rewrites, and I've already acknowledged it from the first comment. So rewrites bad. 1 rewrite? Bad. 2 rewrites? Worse.
My point is that adding these rewrites hurts the narrative even more than it already was in the original manga.

Come on, I can cite countless examples where previously unreleased content from the anime blends well with the adapted content from the manga, as well as replacing it.

There are many segments, actually. Contradictions exist in any work, I just think it's stupid to take away the relevance of all "filler" content or to diminish an entire arc as if it were not coherent with the series in most cases.

Again, you're trying to argue something that we agree on. You really have no idea what my argument was do you? I've already told you that I know that a lot of the filler doesn't contradict anything. But a lot of it does. My issue is with that particular portion that does, and even then, I already told you I consider it as part of the anime continuity. You don't need to list every filler that does not contradict manga material, we know.

This argument that "filler must be completely ignored for things to make sense", as you said in your first reply, falls once again into subjectivity. Do you have to ignore all fillers? Do you have to ignore just some? Which ones? Who decides that? It's either all or nothing, my friend.

Tell me when I made that argument. Because not only I don't think that, I also never wrote anything that implies it. I've already explained to you that my first comment explains why the fanbase, not me, THE FANABSE usually ignores fillers when talking about the anime. Making a general statement on a group's behavior doesn't mean I agree or share that behavior.
If "filler must be completely ignored for things to make sense" is what you think I've said then you need to read again properly. Unless you're purposely being dishonest about what I've said for the sake of your argument.

You say no, but you establish a hierarchy between content adapted from the manga and original content/filler. They should be given equal weight.

You're strawmanning the hell out of my arguments. Sounds like you want to argue against someone who isn't me but you're just replying to me instead because you have nobody else. I established no such hierarchy

I hope you took your hands off your eyes so you can read and interpret what I said. I feel like I'm talking to walls instead of a real person.

Brother you're the one who in god knows how many detalied messages that I've left still hasn't figured out what the hell I was talking about in the first place. You respond to arguments that I have never even made.
You feel like talking to a wall because you're strawmanning my ideas in your head and convincing yourself that I have those thoughts when in reality I don't, and when I tell you I don't, you ignore it and keep fighting your war while not even knowing who you're fighting against. Seriously, it's getting ridiculous.

Now, for a "too long can't read" version, I implore you to only reply further if you understood these 4 key concepts:

• I never say that the fillers are not part of the continuity, in fact I said the opposite multiple times.

• I never said that ALL fillers create plot holes, in fact I said the opposite multiple times.

• I never made the "filler must be completely ignored for things to make sense" argument.

• You are using straw man arguments instead of addressing what I'm actually saying.
  Definiton of straw man:A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction

[Koitsukai]

The issue with the Garlic Jr. arc is being a follow up to an alternative story without resolving its contradictions, creating a major continuity headache.
It downplays Piccolo Jr.'s key development (his reluctant alliance with Goku) by making it seem routine, undermining his gradual shift from villain to ally. This isn’t just a minor inconsistency; it’s as problematic as destroying Goku’s spaceship only for it to be used later to reach Namek.

The audience, if they want to make sense of the story, must choose between these options. Was the pod totalled by Piccolo? how did they get to Namek then?
Was Piccolo already softened by the time Raditz arrived? was he already softened by the time Garlic Jr. arrived for the first time?
That is, if you want to make sense of the important stuff; A-17 being called A-19 is small potatoes. If one wants to consume it like it's a revolving door of inconsistencies, then one is also free to do that, that sure is what Toei came up with.
It all comes down to how one wants to experience the series.

[Melkaniator J]

"The manga is the real story, the rest is promotional stuff!"

I find it so funny that you simply speak for the owners

I think it's funny you haven't noticed that's how things work. Since (like I already stated) they have ignored it as well.

The Dragon Ball, Z and GT TV series are an adaptation of the original manga, just as the Avengers movies are adaptations of the Marvel comics.

100% False equivalence. Animating manga is completely different to making a live-action adaptation that's loosely based on the comics. Apples and oranges type of comparison

I find it so funny that you say as if the "fillers" (this separation is stupid, this bad habit of breaking up an autonomous work by delimiting what is important or not is stupid)

Everything you disagree with is either “funny” or “stupid”. Your vocabulary is quite limited. I wish you made a valid argument instead.

If you think separating filler from the actual manga adaptation is stupid...you're missing the hilarious irony right there.

People should not ignore fillers if they want to discuss the work. It's like watching a movie skipping scenes.

Except skipping scenes from a movie will most likely make the movie senseless while skipping filler will most likely improve consistency.

You're REALLY bad at making examples.

A movie is (more often than not) a single work, while filler was added into someone else's work. Filler is (normally) damaging to the overall anime. That's why it's almost universally ignored.

Naruto's infamous 76 filler episodes are a good example of ruining the quality of that anime.