The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Goku said he starts slow while losing to 3rd form Frost, thus he must be able to stalemate Final Form Frost, is a leap of logic I'm not able to make. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Therein is part of the issue. The entire anime represents a Schrodingers Cat situation, where multiple things are true at once. I've said essentially that in my last few replies about the medium.

I think your assessment of Daima/RoF is inaccurate and doesn't supercede what we already know, but there's a way to headcanon your way into it that the anime will also support. Can't really disprove it, which is why I typically avoid anime PL debates. Everyone is both right and wrong at the same time, so we have the neverending loop of debate.

I don’t think you’re fully engaging with what I said. I’m not claiming Goku in base would outright stalemate Final Form Frost while losing to his third form. I’m saying he still had power left in reserve when fighting Frost’s third form. The proof is in how Goku wasn’t fazed by Frost’s attacks. He took them head-on, but never reacted as if he was overwhelmed. This can be verified in both TV anime and manga. The point is that Goku didn’t bother proving anything. He just jumped to SS1 to force Frost to reveal his full strength. That doesn’t mean Base Goku was helpless against Frost’s third form. Had they decided to continue in that condition, Goku would likely regain the upper hand, but it was pointless, since both were still hiding power.

Also, when I talk about a Schrödinger’s Cat situation, I’m not referring to just the TV anime but to modern Dragon Ball continuities as a whole (Toriyama-scripted material and movies, the TV anime, the manga). They all tweak power relationships retroactively. That’s why I brought up RoF. If Zarbon and Dodoria got recontextualized as stronger than we previously thought, why wouldn’t Freeza himself be upscaled too? You dismissed my Daima/RoF assessment as inaccurate without explaining why. You just said ‘what we already know’ contradicts it, but what do we already know that does? If you have a specific counterpoint, I’d like to hear it.

[Koitsukai]

-1) Kid GT Goku (Pre-SS4) potara fused with Uub (Gokuub) vs Golden Ohzaru Vegeta Baby.


-2) Which attack was stronger? The genkidama that killed Kid Buu or SVB2's Revenge Death Ball that Mr. Buu breathed in?
What I don't fully get is how come Mr. Buu was not completely erased and able to fuse and provide a significant boost to Uub after receiving such attack?
Was it not as strong as that genkidama from over a decade ago, even though the user was stronger and the attack is similar to the genkidama?

-3) Following up on #2. If Mr. Buu, while not killed, was seriously hurt by that attack, would that mean that a healthy Mr. Buu fused with Uub would create a much stronger Majuub? Or did that attack do nothing to Buu and his full power was transferred to Uub? In this case, Genkidama >>>>> RDB.

[Hugo Boss]

Final Form Freeza ROF vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah and SSj4 Adult Goku (Daima)

Who wins?

Interesting one. Final Form Freeza in Resurrection ‘F’ was almost on equal footing with Base Goku after his training with Whis, but that doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near Battle of Gods SSG Goku.

Whis stated that Goku and Vegeta, presumably in blue form, together could fight Beerus evenly, while BoG SSG Goku was about 60% of Beerus’ power. This suggests that Base Goku in RoF, while much stronger than before, is still far weaker than his BoG SSG self, and by extension, so is Final Form Freeza.

However, I’d argue that Base Goku in RoF is already stronger than Base Vegetto from the Boo arc. Base Vegetto was likely above SS3 Goku, but the massive gains Goku and Vegeta made in RoF suggest their Base forms eventually eclipsed that level.

Applying this logic to Daima, SS4 Goku would also scale above Base Vegetto from Z, possibly even beyond Super Boo with Gohan absorbed. If Daima’s power scaling is consistent with what we’ve seen in RoF, SS4 Goku in Daima and Base Goku in RoF should be roughly equal.

As for Giant Third Eye Gomah, if he’s a major opponent to SS4 Goku, that further solidifies Freeza’s disadvantage. At this point, I’d side with the Daima duo winning.

-1) Kid GT Goku (Pre-SS4) potara fused with Uub (Gokuub) vs Golden Ohzaru Vegeta Baby.


-2) Which attack was stronger? The genkidama that killed Kid Buu or SVB2's Revenge Death Ball that Mr. Buu breathed in?
What I don't fully get is how come Mr. Buu was not completely erased and able to fuse and provide a significant boost to Uub after receiving such attack?
Was it not as strong as that genkidama from over a decade ago, even though the user was stronger and the attack is similar to the genkidama?

-3) Following up on #2. If Mr. Buu, while not killed, was seriously hurt by that attack, would that mean that a healthy Mr. Buu fused with Uub would create a much stronger Majuub? Or did that attack do nothing to Buu and his full power was transferred to Uub? In this case, Genkidama >>>>> RDB.

Gokuub vs. Golden Oozaru Baby is tricky. I’d say Gokuub would likely be stronger than Super Baby Vegeta 2, but since Goku ditched fusion in favor of SS4 to win, it’s hard to say he would be on the same level as Golden Oozaru Baby. He might have been comparable, but I’d lean towards Golden Oozaru Baby being stronger.

The Revenge Death Ball (Evil Spirit Bomb) probably wasn’t as strong as the Super Spirit Bomb that killed Kid Buu, despite their similarities. The biggest difference is that the Super Spirit Bomb was powered by energy from virtually all life in the universe and afterlife beings, while Baby’s attack was fueled by his own energy and possibly the controlled “Tuffles”. Buu surviving suggests those spheres weren’t on the same level, or maybe Buu’s unique physiology helped him endure it in a way other beings wouldn’t.

If Buu was seriously weakened, then a healthy fusion with Uub should logically result in a stronger Majuub. But since Majuub was still strong enough to help turn the tide, it’s possible that Buu’s full power was transferred to Uub, meaning the Revenge Death Ball didn’t completely destroy him. If that’s the case, then yeah, the Super Spirit Bomb is still in a completely different tier.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

I am using exclusively manga for these estimates.

I try to avoid anime power level discussions mainly because the anime is so random, inconsistent, and contradictory, that it makes it pointless IMO. Everyone's opinion on anime PL's is probably right and wrong at the same time.

As for his PL after the ROSAT, there was a lot of levels between Android 17 and the Cell Juniors that I don't think one year of training could make up for.

16 was MASSIVELY stronger than 17.

2nd form Cell was MASSIVELY stronger than 16.

Super Vegeta was then much, much stronger than 2nd form cell.

The cell juniors were much stronger than Super Vegeta.

I don't see any realistic way that gap could be bridged in a year.

Piccolo went from weaker than Nappa to over 200k in just several days on king kais surpassing several people.

He also went from base vegeta lvl to Super Saiyan lvl in 3 years of basic training surpassing the Emperor of the Universe.

He also went from SS2 Gohan pre Mystic unlock lvl to Far beyond BoG SSG Goku from training with gohan for not even a month.

Judging by these it's not that out of the ordinary for Piccolo to at least be 50% Cell Games Goku lvl

The truth is none of us have a scouter, and he could be anywhere between 16 level and Super Vegeta level for all we know. I'm not saying you're wrong, because there's no way I could know if you're wrong or not. I just think there is such a monumental gap between Android 17 and Super Vegeta that it seems extremely unlikely for that gap to be made up in a year.

If you choose to place him at Cell Jr. level in your PL list, that's your prerogative and there's no way for anyone to prove you wrong. But recall that Vegeta did an extra year in the ROSAT before the Cell Games. If your theory is that Piccolo, in one year, made up the gap between 17 and Super Vegeta, and also somehow made up the extra gap that Vegeta made in his extra year in the time chamber, I think that falls out of the realm of reasonable possibility.

And in no way do I believe Piccolo was anywhere near 200k after being on Kai's planet. The daizenshuu suggests several ridiculous, implausible things, and that is one of the more egregious ones. It's a totally unreliable and problematic source IMO.

And I got no true way to prove you wrong so I guess it is a matter of interpretation.

The EML suggested the Namekian Fusion Multiplier is at least 5x base so Piccolo fused with nail being on par with 2nd form frieza over 1 mil would mean Piccolo is over 200k

I have the scan but idk how to send it for now so I'll at least send the translation.

“A posture that oozes power! The figure has been designed with this scene in the Frieza saga in mind. The designer recommends contemplating the figure from the same angle as in chapter 295 (top image). Piccolo has quintupled its power and the posture has a lot of force”

El Manga Legendario says that Piccolo has Quintupled his power after fusing with Nail.

[Koitsukai]

I know where that EML quote comes from. From one of the first spanish translations of the manga. I was also convinced the merger meant a 5x boost because of that translation until I watched that scene in japanese for the first time.
It turns out there is no such line, but one more vague: Many times stronger or something like that, but no exact multiplier was ever given.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

I know where that EML quote comes from. From one of the first spanish translations of the manga. I was also convinced the merger meant a 5x boost because of that translation until I watched that scene in japanese for the first time.
It turns out there is no such line, but one more vague: Many times stronger or something like that, but no exact multiplier was ever given.

Thats cool too, many times by definition can mean any large multiplier 5 being the minimum. After all a Guides purposes is to guide readers to the answer or the hints of an answer.

[sunsetshimmer]

-1) Kid GT Goku (Pre-SS4) potara fused with Uub (Gokuub) vs Golden Ohzaru Vegeta Baby.


-2) Which attack was stronger? The genkidama that killed Kid Buu or SVB2's Revenge Death Ball that Mr. Buu breathed in?
What I don't fully get is how come Mr. Buu was not completely erased and able to fuse and provide a significant boost to Uub after receiving such attack?
Was it not as strong as that genkidama from over a decade ago, even though the user was stronger and the attack is similar to the genkidama?

-3) Following up on #2. If Mr. Buu, while not killed, was seriously hurt by that attack, would that mean that a healthy Mr. Buu fused with Uub would create a much stronger Majuub? Or did that attack do nothing to Buu and his full power was transferred to Uub? In this case, Genkidama >>>>> RDB.

Gokuub vs. Golden Oozaru Baby is tricky. I’d say Gokuub would likely be stronger than Super Baby Vegeta 2, but since Goku ditched fusion in favor of SS4 to win, it’s hard to say he would be on the same level as Golden Oozaru Baby. He might have been comparable, but I’d lean towards Golden Oozaru Baby being stronger.

The Revenge Death Ball (Evil Spirit Bomb) probably wasn’t as strong as the Super Spirit Bomb that killed Kid Buu, despite their similarities. The biggest difference is that the Super Spirit Bomb was powered by energy from virtually all life in the universe and afterlife beings, while Baby’s attack was fueled by his own energy and possibly the controlled “Tuffles”. Buu surviving suggests those spheres weren’t on the same level, or maybe Buu’s unique physiology helped him endure it in a way other beings wouldn’t.

If Buu was seriously weakened, then a healthy fusion with Uub should logically result in a stronger Majuub. But since Majuub was still strong enough to help turn the tide, it’s possible that Buu’s full power was transferred to Uub, meaning the Revenge Death Ball didn’t completely destroy him. If that’s the case, then yeah, the Super Spirit Bomb is still in a completely different tier.

There was that weird thing about fusion not being enough and needing fully powered SSJ4 to take down Baby almost if it wasn't just about raw power but "SSJ4 power". Back in this arc SSJ4 was presented as some uber power beyond anything, kinda like initially SSJG was presented or UI. I mean we weren't said Goku needs more power to beat Beerus, he was said to need SSJG. The same way he needed UI to beat Jiren. Getting stronger or faster wasn't enough. He needed UI and only UI. Of course in all these cases it was just bs and all them just turned into regular power ups. But back then Goku clearly said after transforming first time that he needs "this body and this power to beat Baby". So yeah, i believe back then Gokuub would have zero chance. Simply because he wouldn't be SSJ4. Only SSJ4 could beat him.

About Revenge Death Ball - it could be weaker than genki dama from Buu arc easily. Remember that it wasn't full power. It was quickly charged and pretty small. Baby made it clear that it's smaller and weaker than the one he used on Goku but it should be enough to beat Uub. Now the one used against Goku, huge one, that hit Goku even in another dimension, was probably easily stronger than the one used on Buu. Cause Baby meant it when he used it. Against Uub he weren't serious and wouldn't waste energy to launch attack stronger than neccesary. Especially considering back then he still was careful to not cause damage to his planet. On Earth, he didn't care.

[dragon boss z]

I know where that EML quote comes from. From one of the first spanish translations of the manga. I was also convinced the merger meant a 5x boost because of that translation until I watched that scene in japanese for the first time.
It turns out there is no such line, but one more vague: Many times stronger or something like that, but no exact multiplier was ever given.

hmmm so the EML statement saying Piccolo's fusion being x5 is bogus that originated from a mistranslation? Is there anything else like this?

[Hugo Boss]

I know where that EML quote comes from. From one of the first spanish translations of the manga. I was also convinced the merger meant a 5x boost because of that translation until I watched that scene in japanese for the first time.
It turns out there is no such line, but one more vague: Many times stronger or something like that, but no exact multiplier was ever given.

hmmm so the EML statement saying Piccolo's fusion being x5 is bogus that originated from a mistranslation? Is there anything else like this?

This kind of inconsistency happens quite a bit across different translations of the booklet, so it’s worth taking these power statements with a grain of salt.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The 5x boost for Piccolo fusing with Nail makes a lot of sense though. He was already in the 200 to 300k range and could’ve defeated 1st form Freeza if he fused with Kami.

[ZombieVito]

The 5x boost for Piccolo fusing with Nail makes a lot of sense though. He was already in the 200 to 300k range and could’ve defeated 1st form Freeza if he fused with Kami.

Exactly.

[Hellspawn28]

Piccolo (23rd TB) vs. Kid Buu vs. Super Xi Yong Long vs. Jiren vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah

Rules:
Blance power levels
No absorbing and candy ray

The battle of the final opponents of each DB show. Who wins?

[DBZ Macky]

Piccolo (23rd TB) vs. Kid Buu vs. Super Xi Yong Long vs. Jiren vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah

Rules:
Blance power levels
No absorbing and candy ray

The battle of the final opponents of each DB show. Who wins?

This is an actually interesting one. I'll try ranking all of them.

1. Jiren should be the clear winner since he's not only trained for much longer than the others but was also stated to have a better control over his power than Goku & Vegeta in the Manga. Even in the Anime, he's able to keep up with Ultra Instinct, a technique even the Gods couldn't master over the course of at least thousands of years.

2. Piccolo should be a distant #2 since he's trained for the tournament and also has Daimao's memories but he's still like literally 3 years old.

3. Kid Buu relies on instinct but is probably more talented than anyone else here. He can copy moves by just seeing them once and has better regeneration than Piccolo as well as his stretchy arms.

4. Omega Shenron has more hax than anyone else here, having the abilities of all the other Shadow Dragons. He has no martial arts experience though and mostly relies on his BIG powar levul so he would be at a disadvantage if everyone's on the same playing field, though.

5. Gomah has no actual battle experience as far as we know. While yes, he cannot be defeated by conventional means, if the Third Eye doesn't actually increase his power level beyond the others then he can't defeat the others who're much more skilled than him either. If the combatants have knowledge on each other then it's easy enough for the others to hit him in the back of his head thrice.

[Yuji]

No SS2, could Gohan have defeated Perfect Cell?

If you think that SPC = same boost as SS2, then things follow linearly that Gohan was already stronger in SS. But some people take into account an extra rage boost for SS2, or Cell's various powered-up states throughout the Cell Games.

So if Gohan had no self-doubt and fought at full power in Super Saiyan, would he win?

Piccolo (23rd TB) vs. Kid Buu vs. Super Xi Yong Long vs. Jiren vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah

Rules:
Blance power levels
No absorbing and candy ray

The battle of the final opponents of each DB show. Who wins?

I feel it basically comes down to Boo vs Jiren. Pure instinct and talent vs martial arts mastery. I'd say with equal battle powers, Boo edges it out. It would basically be a repeat of his battle vs SS3 Goku, he'd get the upper hand due to his abilities and regeneration. Sure, Jiren doesn’t have as much of a stamina issue as SS3, but his stamina still depletes, whereas Boo's doesn’t. Jiren would need to conjure up an attack 10x his own battle power to vaporize him.

You have to keep in mind also that Goku’s interest in Oob in EoZ keeps getting progressively more impressive for Boo the further the series goes. Goku held Boo's natural talent so high up on a pedestal even 10 years later after facing so many incredible opponents.

Gomah and Shenlong are brawlers and even with the third eye I'd reckon Gomah at his best battle power would still lose to most forms of Boo. That specific Piccolo is a complete moron, but even his strongest version I doubt would beat Jiren and Boo.

[Jack Bz]

No SS2, could Gohan have defeated Perfect Cell?

If you think that SPC = same boost as SS2, then things follow linearly that Gohan was already stronger in SS. But some people take into account an extra rage boost for SS2, or Cell's various powered-up states throughout the Cell Games.

So if Gohan had no self-doubt and fought at full power in Super Saiyan, would he win?

I think it could be kinda close, but Cell would win. He has the upper hand with regeneration which means he's pretty difficult to kill, and I think the fact that Goku was banking on Gohan getting angry kind of implies that Cell was still stronger. He's also probably a better all around fighter/tactician.

[Koitsukai]

I agree Cell is the better fighter and has a lot of skills Gohan does not. I only see SS Gohan winning if Goku does not give Cell a senzu.

[Super-Shenron]

So if Gohan had no self-doubt and fought at full power in Super Saiyan, would he win??

Gohan was already at full power in Super Saiyan, and the narrative has more than demonstrated he couldn't do it without SS2.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo (23rd TB) vs. Kid Buu vs. Super Xi Yong Long vs. Jiren vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah

Rules:
Blance power levels
No absorbing and candy ray

The battle of the final opponents of each DB show. Who wins?

Piccolo is dead last. Only one without infinite stamina and he was still a newbie back then. Goku outsmarts him their whole fight.

In the end I think Boo wins. He’s a natural genius as a fighter. No wonder Goku asked him to be revived just for a rematch.

[Noah]

New matches:

- Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta (Daima) vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (BoG arc)

- Super Saiyan 4 Goku (Daima) vs. Super Boo (Gohan absorbed)

[ZombieVito]

New matches:

- Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta (Daima) vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (BoG arc)

- Super Saiyan 4 Goku (Daima) vs. Super Boo (Gohan absorbed)

I have them exactly the same. Goku wins since he has had SS3 for longer I guess.

It is implied that SS4 is 10 times SS3 so Goku wins very easily.