Krillin > Tenshinhan challenge

[nineko]

Toriyama might have forgotten about Dende’s healing powers in the 4 years of real time between writing the Freeza arc and the Boo arc

This is actually more likely than one might think, if you watched the last few episodes of Daima. All the fighters were complaining about being drained, with Dende right besides them.

[dbgtFO]

Toriyama might have forgotten about Dende’s healing powers in the 4 years of real time between writing the Freeza arc and the Boo arc

This is actually more likely than one might think, if you watched the last few episodes of Daima. All the fighters were complaining about being drained, with Dende right besides them.

As far as the Buu Arc is concerned, Toriyama did have Dende's healing ability brought up, when Goku couldn't properly unleash his Genkidama against Buu, but Kaioshin said he couldn't teleport there, because he had used up his energy for the Genkidama.

[90sDBZ]

Krillin supposedly being stronger has always felt like an odd statement to me. Like it just doesn't ring true.

While Krillin trained to impress the ladies, and sometimes as a reaction to a threat, Tien trained purely for self improvement throughout the entire story. Martial arts was literally Tien's life, whereas Krillin was shown to settle down for years with 18.

Tien is also the braver of the 2, and arguably one of the bravest characters in the series. He charged Nappa head on, even after losing his arm. He jumped in against the Androids without hesitation, while Krillin sat on the sidelines. He jumped in yet again against Cell, and actually gave him trouble. And he went out of his way to attack Buutenks. The man was an underdog, but he had some serious balls, and he never stopped training.

Krillin was brave too, and often trained hard, but he has no business being stronger than Tien.

[MasenkoHA]

Krillin supposedly being stronger has always felt like an odd statement to me. Like it just doesn't ring true.

While Krillin trained to impress the ladies, and sometimes as a reaction to a threat, Tien trained purely for self improvement throughout the entire story. Martial arts was literally Tien's life, whereas Krillin was shown to settle down for years with 18.

Tien is also the braver of the 2, and arguably one of the bravest characters in the series. He charged Nappa head on, even after losing his arm. He jumped in against the Androids without hesitation, while Krillin sat on the sidelines. He jumped in yet again against Cell, and actually gave him trouble. And he went out of his way to attack Buutenks. The man was an underdog, but he had some serious balls, and he never stopped training.

Krillin was brave too, and often trained hard, but he has no business being stronger than Tien.

To be fair, Yamcha made the claim that Krillin was the strongest earthling to Marron during the Buu saga and nobody had seen Tenshinhan for 7 years so he might have just forgotten about him.

Even accounting for Krillin getting a power up from The Grand Elder it does became a bit harder to believe Krillin is stronger after 7 years of not training while Tenshinhan never stopped. I would imagine Krillin was the strongest of the two during Freeza and Cell though but only because he had an obese mystic bringing out his potential.

[Koitsukai]

Krillin supposedly being stronger has always felt like an odd statement to me. Like it just doesn't ring true.

While Krillin trained to impress the ladies, and sometimes as a reaction to a threat, Tien trained purely for self improvement throughout the entire story. Martial arts was literally Tien's life, whereas Krillin was shown to settle down for years with 18.

Tien is also the braver of the 2, and arguably one of the bravest characters in the series. He charged Nappa head on, even after losing his arm. He jumped in against the Androids without hesitation, while Krillin sat on the sidelines. He jumped in yet again against Cell, and actually gave him trouble. And he went out of his way to attack Buutenks. The man was an underdog, but he had some serious balls, and he never stopped training.

Krillin was brave too, and often trained hard, but he has no business being stronger than Tien.

You do bring up a fair point: yuki(courage). Said to be one of the three pillars of power. Tenshinhan, while practical, excels in that while Krilin does not, even though by no means he is a chicken (hold on, doesn't TOEI's DBS make a point about Krilin being kinda cowardish prior to the ToP?).
In any case, I'd say Ten's mindset(shouki is it?) and courage(yuki) are superior to Krilin's. The K man apparently has the high ground in the genki departament.

This much I'll said with certainty, Toriyama sure did a poor job in backing up Yamcha's claim about who was the strongest non-monkey character. Because there is so much contradicting it by the time the story was to coming to an end.
I guess this is due to setting aside the former supporting characters without much thought.
One cop out would be that Yamcha was just being nice to Krilin's daughter. But I think Akira-chan said the same thing when interviewed.
Tori was also no stranger to changing established situations without further ado: Yamcha The Cheater.

[90sDBZ]

I guess this is due to setting aside the former supporting characters without much thought.

Part of me wonders if Toriyama simply didn't even think of Tien when he made that statement. He's been known to forget pretty major stuff like SS2, Launch, Tao etc..

Despite being the less brave/dedicated fighter, Krillin is featured more prominently in the story. It wouldn't be that big a stretch to think that Toriyama simply forgot Tien.

What's strange is the statement was actually reiterated in the game DBZ Budokai 3. Tien has a What-if storyline where he and Yamcha agree to a rematch at the World Tournament following Buu's defeat. After beating Yamcha, Yamcha says "You're the 2nd strongest earthling", or something to that affect. Tien replies "2nd strongest? Oh yeah, I forgot to count Krillin." I guess the developers took Toriyama's statement seriously.

There's something else I just thought of too. During the scene right after Gero injures Yamcha, Goku orders Krillin to take Yamcha to safety, while Tien stays to stand alongside Goku and Piccolo. This would suggest that Goku would rather have Tien by his side, and sent the weaker Krillin away. Gero then goes on to address the remaining 3 by name, and we see a dramatic scene with all 3 in fighting stance. It's interesting because those 3 were the strongest contenders during the 23rd Tournanent (I guess you could argue Kami was still stronger than Tien at the time).

Also we see Tien as the one constantly by Piccolo's side during the hunt for Imperfect Cell.

[PhantomSaiyan]

We would definitely have a lot less things to talk about if Toriyama simply remembered things lmao

[Yuji]

Kuririn just has more natural talent. I don’t understand why fans struggle to acknowledge this despite the multiple sources claiming one is stronger than the other, and the series showing multiple examples of characters being stronger/surpassing other characters who train harder by virtue of natural talent/genetics.

Kuririn was Goku's age fighting adult men, he wasn't at his peak. Tenshinhan himself was what, 18, when he was introduced? Tenshinhan may have been at most 20% stronger than him at their introductions, but that gap was slowly closed as they became older.

Nobody mentions it, but Yamcha had a case to being stronger than Kuririn in the 21st and 22nd Budokai, too. And yet nobody would reasonably claim he's stronger than him in any arc following that. Like Tenshinhan, Yamcha was already a teen/young adult when he was introduced, aka near his physical prime. We saw Kuririn grow into a grown man in real time.

And that's on top of the other contextual layups given to him already suggested this thread: the potential unlock, the vastly superior sparring partner(s).

Even if you analyze Kuririn and Tenshinhan's battles when Kuririn was weaker, he comes off as the much more accomplished and impressive fighter: impressing Piccolo Jr in the 23rd Budokai, being able to land solid hits on Nappa to Vegeta's respect, etc. Even if Tenshinhan's overall battle power remained higher to this day, Kuririn is the better fighter and tactician and would most likely win a 1v1.

[Zephyr]

Part of me wonders if Toriyama simply didn't even think of Tien when he made that statement. He's been known to forget pretty major stuff like SS2, Launch, Tao etc..

Despite being the less brave/dedicated fighter, Krillin is featured more prominently in the story. It wouldn't be that big a stretch to think that Toriyama simply forgot Tien.

I think it depends on what we mean specifically by Toriyama "forgetting" Ten. I could buy him temporarily brainfarting and/or not really thinking exhaustively about the pecking order when writing that Yamcha line. But Toriyama also wrote Goku asking where Tenshinhan was a mere 8 chapters prior, during the preliminaries, and wrote Gohan saying to himself he didn't know where Tenshinhan was another 5 chapters prior, while going around telling everyone about Goku's visit. Between that and multiple instances of Ten being mentioned or depicted later in the arc, if Toriyama indeed 'forgot' about him it was fleeting, and sandwiched between multiple instances of remembering him in the same arc.

I do think it was ultimately a matter of there only being so many characters worth keeping track of at any given time. Tenshinhan is not really a part of the story anymore. Had he been at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, he likely would have simply been another person turned to stone by Dabra, and subsequently another person turned into chocolate by Boo. Though, with how he is repeatedly mentioned by Kuririn, I suspect that Toriyama was deliberately keeping him in his back pocket for later, just in case. Tenshinhan later showing up to save Gohan kind of feels like Kuririn's Gun™ firing.

This would suggest that Goku would rather have Tien by his side, and sent the weaker Krillin away. Gero then goes on to address the remaining 3 by name, and we see a dramatic scene with all 3 in fighting stance. It's interesting because those 3 were the strongest contenders during the 23rd Tournanent (I guess you could argue Kami was still stronger than Tien at the time).

Yeah, this is a cool moment. Goku and his two greatest earthly rivals standing together.

[MasenkoHA]

Nobody mentions it, but Yamcha had a case to being stronger than Kuririn in the 21st and 22nd Budokai, too. And yet nobody would reasonably claim he's stronger than him in any arc following that. Like Tenshinhan, Yamcha was already a teen/young adult when he was introduced, aka near his physical prime. We saw Kuririn grow into a grown man in real time.

Roshi took Yamcha out with a single blow of wind without Yamcha landing a single hit. He had to put a minimal amount of effort against Krillin.

Krillin knew he could Kamehameha because Yamcha did it



Krillin was always stronger than Yamcha.

[Zephyr]

And that's on top of the other contextual layups given to him already suggested this thread: the potential unlock, the vastly superior sparring partner(s).

I think the potential unlock is the only one of these contextual layups that really carries any weight. #18 would undoubtedly be a better training partner than Chaozu. But did Kuririn train with her? Would she care about training? Did Kuririn train at all in those 7 years of peace? I could see him doing basic exercise stuff to stay in shape, but I can scarcely imagine him trying to grow stronger. I checked the chapter where Gohan visits Kuririn to tell him about Goku's visit, to see if anything was mentioned about training. And while I didn't see anything of the sort, there was an exchange that I'm shocked to have never seen come up regarding this topic.

Kuririn muses about entering the tournament, and says: "'Cept against Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta, how can I win...?" Gohan replies with: "Come on! Try! The top five contestants win prize money!" After Gohan explains the amount of money to #18, she says: "Do it Kuririn!! I'll enter too!!" Finally, Kuririn pleads to Gohan: "Hey! Don't tell Piccolo! Then it'd be really hard for me to make the top five!"

So, the people Kuririn sees as standing in his way of making the top 5 are, in order of mention:
1. Goku
2. Gohan
3. Vegeta
4. #18
5. Piccolo

Tenshinhan is not on Kuririn's "worry list". Is this a smoking gun? Maybe. Kuririn doesn't say "please don't contact Piccolo or Tenshinhan", suggesting that Tenshinhan would indeed not worry him.

On the other hand, it is repeatedly mentioned by multiple characters that they do not know where Tenshinhan is. Kuririn implies they haven't even seen Tenshinhan for 7 years, by quoting the very last thing he said before leaving in the Cell arc. Meaning that neither Kuririn nor Yamcha are even in a position to know how strong or weak Tenshinhan might be in comparison to anybody. It also means that, were Tenshinhan stronger, Kuririn would have no reason to worry about his presence there. On the third hand, you might dismiss character knowledge on the grounds of authorial intent. Keeping things simple, Toriyama was simply speaking through Kuririn and Yamcha, even if they were not in a position in-universe to know what they were talking about.

On the fourth hand, though, these lists are demonstrably not exhaustive all the time; Kuririn's initial thought that only the Saiyans prove troublesome for him winning seems to neglect Piccolo, who only comes up later in the conversation. Ah, but on the fifth hand, Kuririn's neglect of Piccolo is later remedied on the same page, while Yamcha never brings Tenshinhan up to Marron! Sure, but on the sixth hand, Kuririn had a practical reason to remedy his neglect of Piccolo (thinking of possible obstacles), while Yamcha has a practical reason to not remedy his neglect of Tenshinhan (reassuring Kuririn's daughter).

[Yuji]

Nobody mentions it, but Yamcha had a case to being stronger than Kuririn in the 21st and 22nd Budokai, too. And yet nobody would reasonably claim he's stronger than him in any arc following that. Like Tenshinhan, Yamcha was already a teen/young adult when he was introduced, aka near his physical prime. We saw Kuririn grow into a grown man in real time.

Roshi took Yamcha out with a single blow of wind without Yamcha landing a single hit. He had to put a minimal amount of effort against Krillin.

Krillin knew he could Kamehameha because Yamcha did it



Krillin was always stronger than Yamcha.

Maybe in the 21st Budokai, sure. But in Baba's tournament, it is Yamcha who has the better showing, and Tenshinhan considers him the worthier foe:

Chapter: 118, P14.1
Context: Tenshinhan won the match with Yamcha.
Chaozu: “You won!”
Tenshinhan: “Of course. But you know, these Turtle School fellows are much better than I expected. Don’t be complacent. Of course, this Yamcha was probably the best Kame-sen’nin has to offer…so it’s already plain that I’ll be the champion…and you’ll be runner up!”

This to say that regardless of which is stronger, Kuririn and Yamcha are basically paired up as interchangeable equals following the 21st Budokai until the Saiyan arc - unlike Tenshinhan who is always portrayed as a step above the two. Yet in the Saiyan arc and beyond, the totem pole shifts and Kuririn undoubtedly is portrayed as stronger than Yamcha. Power rankings in the series are fluid, not static.

[Zephyr]

Maybe in the 21st Budokai, sure. But in Baba's tournament, it is Yamcha who has the better showing, and Tenshinhan considers him the worthier foe:

Chapter: 118, P14.1
Context: Tenshinhan won the match with Yamcha.
Chaozu: “You won!”
Tenshinhan: “Of course. But you know, these Turtle School fellows are much better than I expected. Don’t be complacent. Of course, this Yamcha was probably the best Kame-sen’nin has to offer…so it’s already plain that I’ll be the champion…and you’ll be runner up!”

I mean, he's also considering Yamcha the worthier foe than Goku with that statement, so I'm not sure how useful it is in terms of actual strength comparisons.

[MasenkoHA]

Maybe in the 21st Budokai, sure. But in Baba's tournament, it is Yamcha who has the better showing, and Tenshinhan considers him the worthier foe:

Chapter: 118, P14.1
Context: Tenshinhan won the match with Yamcha.
Chaozu: “You won!”
Tenshinhan: “Of course. But you know, these Turtle School fellows are much better than I expected. Don’t be complacent. Of course, this Yamcha was probably the best Kame-sen’nin has to offer…so it’s already plain that I’ll be the champion…and you’ll be runner up!”

This to say that regardless of which is stronger, Kuririn

Tenshinhan assumed Yamcha was stronger than Goku too. The whole point was Tenshinhan was wrong and didn’t know what he was talking about when estimating the strength of the Turtle School.

Puerh and Oops beat Dracula Man by outsmarting him and you don’t honestly think they’re stronger than Krillin do you? Yamcha didn’t have a better performance at Baba’s tournament than Krillin because he was stronger. Krillin lost his match because he underestimated his opponent and Yamcha won his because Krillin had removed the Invisible Man’s only advantage.

Sure power rankings aren’t static but Yamcha has never been stronger than Krillin, aside from when Krillin first showed up at Roshi’s island

[90sDBZ]

Kuririn just has more natural talent. I don’t understand why fans struggle to acknowledge this despite the multiple sources claiming one is stronger than the other, and the series showing multiple examples of characters being stronger/surpassing other characters who train harder by virtue of natural talent/genetics.

Kuririn was Goku's age fighting adult men, he wasn't at his peak. Tenshinhan himself was what, 18, when he was introduced? Tenshinhan may have been at most 20% stronger than him at their introductions, but that gap was slowly closed as they became older.

Nobody mentions it, but Yamcha had a case to being stronger than Kuririn in the 21st and 22nd Budokai, too. And yet nobody would reasonably claim he's stronger than him in any arc following that. Like Tenshinhan, Yamcha was already a teen/young adult when he was introduced, aka near his physical prime. We saw Kuririn grow into a grown man in real time.

And that's on top of the other contextual layups given to him already suggested this thread: the potential unlock, the vastly superior sparring partner(s).

Even if you analyze Kuririn and Tenshinhan's battles when Kuririn was weaker, he comes off as the much more accomplished and impressive fighter: impressing Piccolo Jr in the 23rd Budokai, being able to land solid hits on Nappa to Vegeta's respect, etc. Even if Tenshinhan's overall battle power remained higher to this day, Kuririn is the better fighter and tactician and would most likely win a 1v1.

I have to disagree.

For a start, Krillin was a year older than Goku, so only a couple of years younger than Tien. That's not that big an age gap.

Regarding the 23rd Tournament, Tien was clearly still portrayed as stronger than Krillin here (who at this point was also an adult). Krillin managed to catch a suppressed Piccolo off guard and land some good hits, but didn't last very long. He was clearly fighting an uphill battle throughput.

Tien was actually at an advantage against Goku initially, outpacing him and forcing him to remove his weighted clothing. That's way more than Krillin accomplished against Piccolo.

And there was the scene were Kami asks Tien to kill him to save Goku from Piccolo. Seems pretty clear he's asking the strongest fighter available to do the deed.

The fight with Nappa just hammers the point home further. Tien stands toe to tie with him, forces him to go on the defensive, and repeatedly gets back up immediately after being knocked down. Krillin goes down from a single ki blast that doesn't even make direct contact. The only hits Krillin lands are sneak attacks.

To further prove the point, Krillin at 100% hits both Nappa and Vegeta with his strongest blast following Yamcha's death, and it does nothing. Meanwhile an exhausted and injured Tien does visible damage to Nappa's armour with his final attack.

I also don't buy that Krillin is more talented as a fighter. Tien constantly invents new techniques, while Krillin's only unique move is Destructo Disk/Kienzan.

The last example I'll use is Semi-Perfect Cell. Tien almost succeeds in ruining the guys day with his Tri Beam/Kikoho, while Krillin gets knocked aside instantly like a ragdoll. Even though Krillin had way more motivation to protect 18, Tien ironically did a much better job of it.