Dragonball GT and the original concept for Z

[Dominator]

Does anyone think it would have been best if Akira Toriyama ended the series at the end of the Freeza saga?

You can tell he was beginning to loathe his series, how everyone was able to turn Super Saiyan (though it's obvious how Trunks and Goten reached it at such a young age), all the villains wanted to kill everyone, or blow up Earth, or take over Earth, or something.

The Freeza saga was set perfectly for the series' end; Super Saiyan Goku killing Freeza who he gave some of his Ki too, and then dying on the planet. I mean, how could Goku find one of the Ginyu capsules if he stood outside in the middle of an apocalyptic storm and cried "NO!". We all saw him do it just as Namek exploded! Dragonball Z got repetitive then (even though I'm still a big fan of the series) "we must defeat this uber-powerful enemy who is somehow even stronger than the last one and if Goku can't beat him oh schnapz!!!!111" Yeah, somehow the Garlic Jnr saga didn't last very long. Buu wasn't very evil either, he turned people into chocolate for Christ's Sake! And yet they were still alive inside of him! A pink, rubber guy who goes round eating and blowing everything up without any actual signs of evil (i.e. Vegeta killing Nappa and Freeza's murders and pillaging).

This then brings me to Dragonball GT, many people hated it while I loved it. They kept it short, didn't fight friggin' powerful enemies every five minutes, and got use out of the characters we thought we'd never see again; Pan and Bra, along with the Tsufil/Tuffle/Tsufurujin cocnept from the Plan To The Eradicate The Saiyans game. And Super Saiyan 4, at last a Super Saiyan form that didn't involve any gold, and Goku was the only person who could reach it! (Aside from Vegeta, but he cheated and wouldn't count Gogeta with having the SS4 level, he only got it thanks to fusion). Plus, GT ended the series excellently and why do people complain that the art looks nothing like Akira Toriyama's style!?

But considering the amount of merchandise, Akira Toriyama's wealth (does that really count?) and all-round popularity, would Dragonball Z been better off if it had ended as originally planned? Or to continue for years and years on?

Note: I don't want people thinking because of this rant that I don't like Dragonball and that I really hate it, I don't want to go back to that "I hate Budokai 3" thread again.

[oponok]

I think saying Toriyama "LOATHED" the series is a tad too extreme. He may have been "tired" of making the manga, but I don't think he felt like slitting his wrists out of the indignity of it all. Certain characters, such as Vegeta, Gohan, Mr.Satan, and some new ones such as Goten, lil' Trunks, Dabura, Babidi, and Fat Buu all carried the series to its finale, while some others simply lacked their typical charisma or had no real presence. Fat Buu was a very original character, simply because of his innocence, stupidity, and indestructible body. Sort of like an evil Goku.

As for GT, some of us like it, but most of us don't. Why doesn't it fit in with Toriyama's style, nor that of the rest of the series? This is just my theory, mind you: the villians looked like a bunch of He-Man toys, the returning characters became decidedly uncool-looking, the fight scenes were poorly choreographed, characters shrink in proportion when inside a house for no obvious reason, some characters have large chins, and the color pallete for the series was a complete 180 from Dragonball Z. And the ending was utter schmaltz, using our fond memories of DBZ and DB to force us forget the mind poison that was the 64 episodes of GT we all had to watch. When I watch that episode, all I can think is "you guys totally missed the point."

You might as well leave it at the Buu ending. By that time, the story has settled itself and there is no need for more conflict: Vegeta's heart is at semi-peace, Gohan can stand on his own, and Trunks has grown up to be a wanker.

One of the things that was great about DBZ was that characters don't meet to further the plot, they meet out of necessity or a need, like a Paul Thomas Anderson or Kubrick film. Raditz came to Earth, and Goku learned of his heritage. Vegeta met Goku to set himself on a path towards the contentment he was looking for (well, a different kind of contentment), Cell was presented so Gohan could grow up and succeed his father's role, etc, etc. The villians in DBZ are NOT random nor poorly conceived, I assure you, and I hope you can think some of this over before insisting that DBZ becomes so shallow in its second half. If it really is shallow, than I can't imagine what you think of other anime (though... probably the same thing I think...).

Yes, it would have been very interesting if DBZ ended at the Freeza era, and it would have been a cool ending, but in my opinion it keeps going strong till the end of DBZ.

[*PINHEAD*]

It would've been cool with it ended with Freeza. It would've still been nice, though a little less than the Freeza ending, if it ended with Cell (after all, that battle not only included Goku 'passing on the torch' to his son, but it also had the perfect villain, composed of every major enemy in the entire series to that point). I think the ending with Buu was pretty cool, though not as good as the previously mentioned possible endings. I mean, Freeza had purpose, his actions in the past directly affected major plot points. Cell had purpose, he was basically a culmination of every villain in the series. Buu was just some out of the blue juggernaught that's virtually unstoppable. Though it certainly did return the series to a more light-hearted kinda mood.

But in essence, Goku attaining the level of Super Saiyan was a remarkable event, the entire series had been building up to Goku becoming the strongest, and the legendary Super Saiyan had been hinted at for a while. Him defeating the ultimate foe in the universe (at least, that's what we're told to believe at that point in the series) would've been a perfect ending.

As for GT...I never really watched it, but the idea of Super Saiyan 4 was cool. I just don't know why they had the fur change red instead of gold and magically form pants. Maybe it makes him seem more of a violent, even barbaric warrior? I'm more of a manga fan, so to me, the series ending after volume 42. That is, after all, the answer to existence.

[707]

Toriyama has said that he got tired of the series around the middle of the Freeza arc, n numerous interviews over the past few years. He struggled through the Cell plot because of pressure from Shueisha, but the whole time he tried to keep the story fresh and exciting for himself above anyone else. Right vefore the Buu series, he basically told his editors that he was getting ready to give up on the comic. So in exchange, they offered him full creative control over the last stort. Toriyama has gone on to say that, aside from the original few Dragonball stories, that the Buu saga is his favorite. he felt that the series was pushed in a direction by the editors, and the fans, that made it too serious. With the Bu fights, he felt that he was allowed to use more humor, and pace the story the way he wanted it. I think that's obvious, given the general tone and even the srt style of those last few issues.

In the end, Toriyama has always loved Dragonball. He says the reason that he doesn't want to ever continue the Manga is that he loves his characters so much that he doesn't want them to get stale, or "overstay their welcome" (Which is how it was said during his New York JUMP interview, I think...)

He did say (In MANY post-last-issue interviews) that the only way he would ever continue the series was if it was about Mr. Satan and majin Buu living together and fighting crime in Satan City. Obviously this is a joke, but how far from that idea has he come with Neko Majin Z?

Anyway, I'm done flexing my geek muscle.

[Bejiita]

I'm actually very happy that DBZ didn't end at the Frieza saga, sure it would have been a good ending to a long movie, but since DBZ is a series with growing popularity it was only right to carry it on there, I don't know if Dragonball would be as good without Future Trunks, the Androids or Cell, the way those three era's join up, from Metal Frieza to the end of the Cell saga is very nice, it all links up perfectly.

I even like the Buu saga in it's own way, sure Z could have ended nicely at the end of the Cell saga, but then there'd be no Goten or Krillin with hair, or Buu, but anyway, Z should not have finished with Goku killing Frieza and I'm glad it didn't.

And GT isn't terrible, but compared to Z it is. It is bad though, I didn't really enjoy watching ther episodes in original format, let alone Funi's crap dub with a rap intro, come on, and just to say if Blue Water's episode's didn't air in the UK I wouldn't have wasted my time watching it.

I like the Frieza saga the best, well, I like certain part from all saga's, but the Frieza saga has a good plot, when I first watched the whole saga on a CN special after it finished it was like I watched some horror film or something, all these people dying and it wasn't even uncut, it certainly is grim for Z, compared to the humor of the Buu saga, which is what I thought DBZ was all about since the first few episodes I started on was the Tournament saga, I refused to watch it all though and went back to the first episodes and started from scratch.

[MistoNinja]

While I would definitely agree that the Namek/Frieza saga was by far the best of the entire series, the two subsequent sagas (Android/Cell, Majin Buu) both had their moments. The Majin Buu saga certainly had two things going for it: some actual depth and commentary from Akira Toriyama (there are various anti-media messages and obvious yearnings for simpler times when technology didn't rule everything, along with exasperation at the rate in which the new generations grow up) and fusions (which kick ass, plain and simple). The Android/Cell saga was good in that some of the better characters in DBZ were introduced here (Future Trunks and the Androids). So could it have ended at the Frieza saga? Of course. But overall, I'm not sure that it *should* have ended there. It's clearly quite arguable, though.