Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

[Edward Newgate]

How do you guys explain Goten and Trunks' level compared to 18's? Because I've seen people claim that the two are about her level in their base, which is completely insane in my opinion. There's absolutely no reason for the two 7 years old kids who barely fight be over 40x stronger than their dads at the time of their fight against 18. I can understand they might've been born with higher Ki, but to that extent? They need a minimal PL of just 8 million in base in order to be far stronger than 18 in their SSJ form.

18 probably never fought them all out, as much as she could, since she didn't know who "he" was and tried not to kill "him".

[hleV]

I don't even have Goku or Vegeta at 50% Freeza's level in base, let alone #18. The common and perfectly valid explanation is that #18 wouldn't go all out against a guy, who has yet to be revealed to not be a normal human, and risk killing him and thus losing the chance of getting the prize money.

I have the kids on par with Cell Games' Vegeta and Trunks, who I believe had had mastered the SSJ already.

[Bussani]

I can understand they might've been born with higher Ki, but to that extent?

To be honest, I wouldn't have much trouble believing that. It's implied by the manga and outright stated by the guides that Saiyan halflings are born with an incredible power. Gohan's is mostly dormant, and it takes a good while before we start to see its true depths. Goten and Trunks's could have just come out more easily, due in part to their less reserved personalities and in part to the fact that their idea of playing is essentially sparring with one another.

That said, I think of them as weaker than #18 in their basic forms and stronger than her as Super Saiyans. That's about as specific as I can be on the subject.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It was said in the JSAT Special that Abo & Cado were at Freeza's level, and Goku was sure that the kids would be fine. Later, when the fight between Goten & Trunks vs Abo & Cado begun, the kids had the upper hand, and they didn't even need to go Super Saiyan. Which would mean that the kids should stronger than Freeza, making them stronger than #18 when they are transformed into Super Saiyans (I don't believe that #18 is 50 times stronger than Freeza). And we also know that Piccolo is stronger than them thanks to Boo. So:

Piccolo > SS Trunks > SS Goten > #18 > Trunks > Goten > Abo = Cado = Freeza

As for why are Goten & Trunks that strong, GT Perfect Files said that Saiyan's children inherit their father's power. Which would mean that since Goku & Vegeta were very powerful during these fateful nights, but Goten & Trunks are also Halfling Saiyans, so they should be born with even more power than Gohan did. Also, I believe that they have mastered the Super Saiyan form because of the look of the aura in the manga, and that when a Saiyan upgrades his Super Saiyan form into Super Saiyan Full Power, they get stronger faster (since Goku & Gohan were way stronger than Vegeta & Trunks after only one day in the RoSaT, while the later had spent 2 days), so that explains why Trunks is stronger that Future Trunks when he was introduced.

[Saiga]

It was said in the JSAT Special that Abo & Cado were at Freeza's level, and Goku was sure that the kids would be fine. Later, when the fight between Goten & Trunks vs Abo & Cado begun, the kids had the upper hand, and they didn't even need to go Super Saiyan. Which would mean that the kids should stronger than Freeza, making them stronger than #18 when they are transformed into Super Saiyans (I don't believe that #18 is 50 times stronger than Freeza). And we also know that Piccolo is stronger than them thanks to Boo. So:

Piccolo > SS Trunks > SS Goten > #18 > Trunks > Goten > Abo = Cado = Freeza

As for why are Goten & Trunks that strong, GT Perfect Files said that Saiyan's children inherit their father's power. Which would mean that since Goku & Vegeta were very powerful during these fateful nights, but Goten & Trunks are also Halfling Saiyans, so they should be born with even more power than Gohan did. Also, I believe that they have mastered the Super Saiyan form because of the look of the aura in the manga, and that when a Saiyan upgrades his Super Saiyan form into Super Saiyan Full Power, they get stronger faster (since Goku & Gohan were way stronger than Vegeta & Trunks after only one day in the RoSaT, while the later had spent 2 days), so that explains why Trunks is stronger that Future Trunks when he was introduced.

I disagree with Piccolo being stronger. The boys were in base form inside Boo. And when they power up to maximum power on the lookout, Piccolo is shocked at how powerful then are.

I see it as:

SS Trunks > SS Goten (they might be equal after the RoSaT training) > Piccolo > 18 > base Trunks > base Goten > Abo = Cado = some unspecified level of Freeza's power (it's a huge range).

I think both present and future Trunks were born with the same amount of dormant power, but present Trunks is stronger because Vegeta trained him like crazy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I disagree with Piccolo being stronger. The boys were in base form inside Boo.

I believe that even though they were at base, he had access to their full power, same for Gotenks. I don't think that by having base Gotenks (should be base, since the Fusion lasted for 30 minutes) would be enough to make him stronger than Gohan.

And when they power up to maximum power on the lookout, Piccolo is shocked at how powerful then are.

He was shocked because they had grown more powerful, not nessesarily more powerful than him.

I think both present and future Trunks were born with the same amount of dormant power, but present Trunks is stronger because Vegeta trained him like crazy.

But Bulma said in the beginning of High School arc that Trunks had just started training with Vegeta.

[Saiga]

I believe that even though they were at base, he had access to their full power, same for Gotenks. I don't think that by having base Gotenks (should be base, since the Fusion lasted for 30 minutes) would be enough to make him stronger than Gohan.

I don't think Gotenks was in base, it's just that Boo didn't suffer SS3's drawbacks on his own body. Besides, even if he had access to all his power they clearly had a big influence on his body, since Boo looks much less like Piccolo when he was Goten and Trunks absorbed as opposed to when it's just Piccolo (after Vegeta and Goku free everyone else). It's also never said that Boo takes the characteristics of the strongest absorbed person on, while logical it could still be something else that makes it happen.

He was shocked because they had grown more powerful, not nessesarily more powerful than him.

His reaction seems pretty telling to me. He's literally shaking at their power. I really don't think he'd do that if they were weaker than him.

But Bulma said in the beginning of High School arc that Trunks had just started training with Vegeta.

Oh. Well, I'll chalk it up to his sparring with Goten then.

[Kaboom]

I'm not sure what Daizenshuu #7 was smoking when it claimed Trunks "fought evenly" with Android 18. I see the kids struggling to even defend against her while she acts completely nonchalant in the first half of the battle, while their suppressed attack as Super Saiyans completely blows her mind in the second half. I suppose maybe way weaker in base and way stronger in Super Saiyan somehow "averages out" to an all-around even battle? But either way, that's how I see it. They're easy pickings for her in base, but blow her out of the water as Super Saiyans.

I don't see them as stronger than Piccolo, either. Piccolo's surprised reaction to them powering up looks an awful lot like Vegeta's when Goku powered up to fight Nappa, and Goku certainly wasn't stronger than Vegeta then. Expressions of "shock and awe" are not necessarily indications of inferiority. Which isn't to say they're leagues behind him, though. They're probably pretty close behind him.

[Edward Newgate]

Although, people attribute their struggling against her to the fact that they were trying to keep their disguise on.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's also never said that Boo takes the characteristics of the strongest absorbed person on, while logical it could still be something else that makes it happen.

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.

Goku confirms that Boo takes the appearance of the strongest in him.

His reaction seems pretty telling to me. He's literally shaking at their power. I really don't think he'd do that if they were weaker than him.

To me, it seems that he was so shocked because he was surprised that they were so powerful at such age.

[Kaboom]

Although, people attribute their struggling against her to the fact that they were trying to keep their disguise on.

That's true, but you can only really get away with that excuse to a certain extent. I mean, we're talking about people who can pretty much punch mountains in half. A cloth suit might make it awkward to move, especially when shared by two people at once, but that's about it. It's not going to actually affect your power. Plus even as Super Saiyans, they still thought they were at a disadvantage because of the suit.

[FNF]

It was said in the JSAT Special that Abo & Cado were at Freeza's level, and Goku was sure that the kids would be fine. Later, when the fight between Goten & Trunks vs Abo & Cado begun, the kids had the upper hand, and they didn't even need to go Super Saiyan. Which would mean that the kids should stronger than Freeza, making them stronger than #18 when they are transformed into Super Saiyans (I don't believe that #18 is 50 times stronger than Freeza). And we also know that Piccolo is stronger than them thanks to Boo. So:

Piccolo > SS Trunks > SS Goten > #18 > Trunks > Goten > Abo = Cado = Freeza

As for why are Goten & Trunks that strong, GT Perfect Files said that Saiyan's children inherit their father's power. Which would mean that since Goku & Vegeta were very powerful during these fateful nights, but Goten & Trunks are also Halfling Saiyans, so they should be born with even more power than Gohan did. Also, I believe that they have mastered the Super Saiyan form because of the look of the aura in the manga, and that when a Saiyan upgrades his Super Saiyan form into Super Saiyan Full Power, they get stronger faster (since Goku & Gohan were way stronger than Vegeta & Trunks after only one day in the RoSaT, while the later had spent 2 days), so that explains why Trunks is stronger that Future Trunks when he was introduced.

It's worth noting that in the manga adaptation of the JSAT special the kids practically one shot Abo and Cado in base.
They should be >> Abo and Cado.

On topic I believe, from a practical, not technical standpoint;

Kids= ~4
c18= ~5
Piccolo*= ~15
SSjin kids= ~20
SSjin Teen Gohan*= ~21
SSjin Goku(Boo arc)*= ~24

*just for reference.

[Edward Newgate]

It's not canon, so does it matter?

[FNF]

It's not canon, so does it matter?

Meh, I'm not really saying it does since I don't believe so either.
I'm just saying if people want to follow the JSAT as canon (not as in CANNON BALLS) to the original story, they should accept they are way stronger than Abo and Cado and by extension Freeza.

[Fox666]

I disagree with Piccolo being stronger. The boys were in base form inside Boo.

I believe that even though they were at base, he had access to their full power, same for Gotenks. I don't think that by having base Gotenks (should be base, since the Fusion lasted for 30 minutes) would be enough to make him stronger than Gohan.

That's not the case because Boo taunted Gotenks to transform in Super Saiyan 3 before absorbing him.

And when they power up to maximum power on the lookout, Piccolo is shocked at how powerful then are.

He was shocked because they had grown more powerful, not nessesarily more powerful than him.

Here is it for reference:



If you was to ask me, I would say that it is clear that they are stronger than Piccolo based on this page. But that is just my opinion.

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.

Goku confirms that Boo takes the appearance of the strongest in him.

Not really. I used to think the same, but I asked Herms and it is just a way of saying that Piccolo is predominant here, and it has nothing to do with strength. It could be, but it is not what Goku is saying here.

[Bussani]

It's also never said that Boo takes the characteristics of the strongest absorbed person on, while logical it could still be something else that makes it happen.

This raises a question for me: if Buu takes the appearance of the strongest person he absorbs, why does Fat Buu look like Dai Kaioshin and not South Kaioshin? Does that mean Dai Kaioshin was stronger, or is there something more to it? Maybe it's more about who has the most influence over him.

Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now!

Goku confirms that Boo takes the appearance of the strongest in him.

That doesn't seem like confirmation to me. That's just a way of saying that the Piccolo in him is now showing through the most. Like, "My OCD side is coming out strong today."

That's not the case because Boo taunted Gotenks to transform in Super Saiyan 3 before absorbing him.

I've been thinking about this for a little while now. Buu even goes so far as to specifically mention that he wanted to absorb "Super Gotenks".

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
"Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

I don't know if that really means anything, but it's another thing to consider. Honestly, I've never been sure about how Piccolo and the kids match up against one another, and the more I think about it, the less sure I become!

[Toadster]

I'd like to think Piccolo is stronger than the kids because the whole reverting back in power thing is an allusion (at least to me) that Piccolo is the strongest person Buu has absorbed, and yet he still has no shot at beating Gohan. As for Buu taking on the form of Dai Kaioshin instead of South Kaioshin, maybe he takes on the form of whomever he absorbs last? I think his absorbtions of Gotenks and Piccolo counts as a same-time absorbtion, so Gotenks got the nod because he was more powerful. That's just how I see it though, because I really don't want to put the kids around the range of FPSSJ Goku.

[Pantalones]

About Abo and Cado vs. Freeza... it was never specified what form of Freeza they were referring to. Why would Table just inexplicably know about the exact strengths of Freeza's higher forms which have never been shown to anyone but his parents? They could very well only be as strong as his 2nd form, or maybe his 3rd form, and they'd still seem utterly unstoppable to average random aliens who can't fight very well. That would also conveniently plop them right in the low-millions, where the kids beating them up easily even in base isn't a stretch of the imagination at all by this point in the series.

Being as strong as full-power 100% final-form Freeza is unlikely though. "As strong as Freeza" according to a random weak Saiyan who could not have possibly known Freeza's full power pretty much has to refer to something below 100% 4th-form Freeza. Goku may have thought of 4th-form Freeza when Table said that, but he also knew the kids could use Super Saiyan and easily wipe out someone on that level, so of course he wouldn't think to ask "which Freeza?" (plus... it's Goku.)

Of course, I guess that they could be still as strong as the suppressed Mecha-Freeza who showed up on Earth, since that would have been the last form (and power) known to Freeza's empire as a whole. I think most people put him somewhere around 50% of Freeza's max (or a bit higher but still significantly lower than his non-mechanical 100%, to go with Gohan's statements about how Freeza can get much stronger than the level he was at when he first arrived), which makes the kids pummeling them still a bit of a stretch if you don't want overinflated power level numbers, but not nearly as bad as if they're somehow kicking around 100% Freezas without even going Super Saiyan. (The kids are implied to be a little rusty in the movie, too, so if anything they should be weaker than their Buu Saga appearances... so they definitely should not be at that level of power in base...)

====

And yeah, I've always thought that Piccolo remained stronger than the Super Saiyan kids even after their training, and was just stunned at how fast they gained power through their very short period of training. He was close to Vegeta and Trunks' level at the Cell Games, after all, and presumably he would've at least maintained the same level over the 7-year gap even if he didn't train enough to get stronger. The SSj kids are strong enough to scare Android 18 with a ki blast, sure, but Piccolo at that level could effortlessly disintegrate #18 with a single blast; he was almost keeping up with a Cell Jr., so he could've easily beaten Semi-Perfect Cell and even put up a fight against suppressed Perfect Cell at that point (probably not the Cell Goku fought, though; more like the one Vegeta fought and Final Flash'ed earlier. He'd definitely lose against Cell, of course, but he'd be able to smack him around a bit, maybe blast a few chunks out of him, until Cell stopped holding back so much and took him out.) The gap between Piccolo and #18 should be MASSIVE compared to the gap that seems to exist between the SSj kids and #18.

The kids don't need to be Cell Games Piccolo-level to scare #18 with a blast. Even somebody around Imperfect Cell or Android 16's level would be strong enough to pull that off, probably even with an ordinary blast. They don't need to be anywhere near strong enough to keep up in the Cell Games, just strong enough that in SSj they could beat #18 but it would still take at least a tiny bit of effort (making it harder to do with two people in one awkward suit, especially if you're not throwing around tons of blasts to avoid destroying the whole arena.)

I'm not really sure how strong the kids get after their training, but it still seems kind of ridiculous to have them go from maybe Android 16 level (or even a bit lower) all the way to something far beyond Cell Games Piccolo level with so little training. I guess I could sort of see the kids individually matching Piccolo or at least coming close after their training (or maybe becoming a little bit stronger than him, though the usual interpretation of why Buu took on a Piccolo form rather than a Goten/Trunks form suggests that they weren't... it's only Dai Kaioshin who makes anyone think Buu's current absorption-form doesn't just go on power, but he's kinda the supreme god of everything Dragonball plus we know Kaioshin stuff tends to interact oddly with Buu... so it seems likely he's just a special case and it usually is power-based), if you assume they got the best possible boost from just that little bit of training time, but that's about it.

[Bussani]

The SSj kids are strong enough to scare Android 18 with a ki blast, sure, but Piccolo at that level could effortlessly disintegrate #18 with a single blast

Well, it was a suppressed blast. They made a pretty big deal out of not putting their full power into it. But that still doesn't mean they're stronger than Piccolo or anything. I don't think there's any solid evidence that they were, but then, I don't think there's any solid evidence that they weren't, either. It's one of those things that depends very much on how you choose interpret various things.

[dbgtFO]

Besides, even if he had access to all his power they clearly had a big influence on his body, since Boo looks much less like Piccolo when he was Goten and Trunks absorbed as opposed to when it's just Piccolo (after Vegeta and Goku free everyone else).

Though I don't think that has anything to do with Goten and Trunks it's funny how wildly different the two versions are to the point that it just seems like an inconsistency.

To list the characteristics:

Piccolo-Buu 1:

• 5 fingers on each hand
• Piccolo's cape without undershirt

Piccolo-Buu 2:

• "Buu hands"
• Piccolo's cape with undershirt
• Piccolo's pants.

And an image to see for yourself: http://imageshack.us/a/img713/8595/piccolobuu.jpg

This raises a question for me: if Buu takes the appearance of the strongest person he absorbs, why does Fat Buu look like Dai Kaioshin and not South Kaioshin? Does that mean Dai Kaioshin was stronger, or is there something more to it? Maybe it's more about who has the most influence over him.

That's what I've been arguing for a while now. In any case given that Goten and Trunks individually were not the primary absorptions like Gotenks was, it makes sense that it would default to the secondary absorbee Piccolo, once the fusion timed out from my point of view.