Is SSj only 4x base later on?

[Ketchup_Revenge]

This is a bit random, but I was crunching some numbers today with multipliers for SSj transformations. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't believe in multipliers, but here goes.

50x for the Super Saiyan multiplier seems ridiculously high for the feats performed later in the series when comparing base and SSj. And as far as I understand it, 50x was never even stated as a fact, or even it being a multiplier at all. However, when comparing SSj to the higher grades and FPSSj, a pattern started to emerge based on my understanding of the power ups.

SSjT2= 1.33x SSj
SSjT3= 1.66x SSj
FPSSj= 2x SSj

It was stated in a guidebook that I recall in which is said that SSj2 was 2x SSj, but that was one thing that always confused me because it seemed so low. However, there's a possible explanation to this. SSj and FPSSj are often used interchangeably, and aren't actually considered in-universe as different forms. As far as Goku seems to refer to it as, they are the same thing. So it's possible that SSj2=2x FPSSj, making it 4x original SSj. This set up a flag considering that we know that SSj3 and SSj2 also have a 4x gap.

So with this in mind, I began thinking that it was possible for SSj to only be 4x base by the time that the characters reach SSj2. So...
SSj= 4x base
FPSSj=8x base (or 2x SSj)
SSj2= 4x SSj
SSj3=4x SSj2

Also the 8x base is fairly close to Toriyama's later claim that SSj might have been only 10x base. And since he also uses SSj and FPSSj interchangeably, just like the characters in the series do, it seems safe to assume that he was talking about the SSj that we see in the Boo arc, which all characters are strongly suggested to have FPSSj.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I honestly don't get this thread. If you don't believe the official multipliers, why would we think that the multipliers for your numbers change? Isn't that up to you to decide?

[Kamiccolo9]

As I see it, the only time that the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 doesn't really work is the Gohan vs Cell fight. However, that's easily explained if you think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2.
In the Buu Arc, though, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in power from SSJ1 to SSJ2. When Goku shows Buu and Babidi the forms, they just laugh at SSJ2, saying that it's not enough. But then he shocks them with SSJ3. The official multipliers fit this scene pretty well.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

The reason why I don't believe in multipliers is because everything that we know about Saiyan power growth goes against that theory. Vegeta said that "(Saiyans) can't be reduced to numbers", and what do you think that multipliers are? Numbers.
Also there's the fact that SSj train in SSj, while it's obvious that if their increases were from base power multipliers, that the only way to increase their power would be to get stronger in base. Why would they waste time training in SSj?
The biggest contradiction in my head is the fact that SSj comes from latent ki, which is different for everyone. So, even though Goku's could be 50x, that doesn't mean that everyone else's is as well.

EDIT: I know I'm confusing people with this thread then, but for argument's sake, multipliers are much easier to go with, so that's the whole reason behind this.

[RandomGuy96]

As I see it, the only time that the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 doesn't really work is the Gohan vs Cell fight. However, that's easily explained if you think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2.
In the Buu Arc, though, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in power from SSJ1 to SSJ2. When Goku shows Buu and Babidi the forms, they just laugh at SSJ2, saying that it's not enough. But then he shocks them with SSJ3. The official multipliers fit this scene pretty well.

Why doesn't it work for Cell's fight?

[TheMightyOzaru]

There is nothing wrong with the current multipliers. My power levels work just fine with them.

As I see it, the only time that the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 doesn't really work is the Gohan vs Cell fight. However, that's easily explained if you think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2.
In the Buu Arc, though, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in power from SSJ1 to SSJ2. When Goku shows Buu and Babidi the forms, they just laugh at SSJ2, saying that it's not enough. But then he shocks them with SSJ3. The official multipliers fit this scene pretty well.

Why doesn't it work for Cell's fight?

It does but it's hard to fit for some people.

[Kamiccolo9]

As I see it, the only time that the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 doesn't really work is the Gohan vs Cell fight. However, that's easily explained if you think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2.
In the Buu Arc, though, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in power from SSJ1 to SSJ2. When Goku shows Buu and Babidi the forms, they just laugh at SSJ2, saying that it's not enough. But then he shocks them with SSJ3. The official multipliers fit this scene pretty well.

Why doesn't it work for Cell's fight?

Gohan is said to have been down to less than half his power after being struck by Cell's attack. This would make him weaker than he was as a SSJ1, and he wouldn't have been able to block Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha. That's why I think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2 here.

The reason why I don't believe in multipliers is because everything that we know about Saiyan power growth goes against that theory. Vegeta said that "(Saiyans) can't be reduced to numbers", and what do you think that multipliers are? Numbers.
Also there's the fact that SSj train in SSj, while it's obvious that if their increases were from base power multipliers, that the only way to increase their power would be to get stronger in base. Why would they waste time training in SSj?
The biggest contradiction in my head is the fact that SSj comes from latent ki, which is different for everyone. So, even though Goku's could be 50x, that doesn't mean that everyone else's is as well.

Personally, I don't think the numbers are exact. So I think that a SSJ1 would be roughly 50x stronger, not exactly 50x, depending on the user's condition.
Well, at first we only see Goku train in SSJ, and he seems to be aware of the fact that their are levels beyond it, so maybe he's trying to attain that. I would guess that's why Vegeta and Trunks presumably trained in the form in the ROSAT, they would have felt they couldn't achieve the higher levels of SSJ without training in the form. Goku and Gohan train in the form to master it, and presumably Vegeta and Trunks do the same. Afterwards, maybe they train in SSJ to maintain the FPSSJ state? Or possibly, since SSJ, even when mastered, still puts stress on the body, they use that stress to allow for more difficult training?

[Draken]

As I see it, the only time that the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 doesn't really work is the Gohan vs Cell fight. However, that's easily explained if you think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2.
In the Buu Arc, though, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in power from SSJ1 to SSJ2. When Goku shows Buu and Babidi the forms, they just laugh at SSJ2, saying that it's not enough. But then he shocks them with SSJ3. The official multipliers fit this scene pretty well.

Why doesn't it work for Cell's fight?

Because for some people the jump in powers seem way too low, and because Gohan said he lost over half his ki yet was still able to rival SPC.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I would also like to point out that the only the anime shows little difference between base and SSJ but I like to think Goku can put some of his SSJ energy into his base form. His RSSJ form makes me think this is possible. As for Gohan's statement, it's called having little faith and exaggerating his disadvantage.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan is said to have been down to less than half his power after being struck by Cell's attack. This would make him weaker than he was as a SSJ1, and he wouldn't have been able to block Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha. That's why I think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2 here.

"Less than half" could simply be an exaggeration from a demoralized defeatist.

[Draken]

Gohan is said to have been down to less than half his power after being struck by Cell's attack. This would make him weaker than he was as a SSJ1, and he wouldn't have been able to block Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha. That's why I think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2 here.

"Less than half" could simply be an exaggeration.

You could say that for any feat in the series then. The way I see it, unless it's shown to be an exaggeration or a character says otherwise, what AT tells his characters to say are what he means for them to say.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan is said to have been down to less than half his power after being struck by Cell's attack. This would make him weaker than he was as a SSJ1, and he wouldn't have been able to block Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha. That's why I think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2 here.

"Less than half" could simply be an exaggeration.

You could say that for any feat in the series then. The way I see it, unless it's shown to be an exaggeration or a character says otherwise, what AT tells his characters to say are what he means for them to say.

It's pretty easy to believe that breaking Gohan's arm wouldn't drop Gohan's power to less than half.... Also, what feat? Statements count as feats now?

[Kamiccolo9]

Gohan is said to have been down to less than half his power after being struck by Cell's attack. This would make him weaker than he was as a SSJ1, and he wouldn't have been able to block Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha. That's why I think Gohan got a rage boost on top of SSJ2 here.

"Less than half" could simply be an exaggeration.

Possibly, but I prefer to take statements at face value unless they are contradicted. At the time, the multipliers didn't exist yet, so you have to find ways to make them work for some fights, like this one.
Regardless, I have Super Perfect Cell's transformation mimic the SS2 state, in that it doubles his power from his perfect state. Since he was already stronger than Gohan then, he should be stronger than Gohan after they both transformed as well, unless Gohan got something else on top of SSJ2.

[Draken]

It's pretty easy to believe that breaking Gohan's arm wouldn't drop Gohan's power to less than half.... Also, what feat? Statements count as feats now?

Feat, statement, whatever I'm sure you understood what I meant. Why? He took a blast meant to kill Vegeta while unguarded to the side, and was bleeding pretty badly... worse than any other character in the series thus far what it seemed. And yes. Unless you're going to follow the old Amuro Ray statement of "Goku was lying when he said Super Buu > Kid Buu just because."

[dbzfan7]

It's pretty easy to believe that breaking Gohan's arm wouldn't drop Gohan's power to less than half.... Also, what feat? Statements count as feats now?

Feat, statement, whatever I'm sure you understood what I meant. Why? He took a blast meant to kill Vegeta while unguarded to the side, and was bleeding pretty badly... worse than any other character in the series thus far what it seemed. And yes. Unless you're going to follow the old Amuro Ray statement of "Goku was lying when he said Super Buu > Kid Buu just because."

Do not speak of it. I don't need to see that crap again.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's pretty easy to believe that breaking Gohan's arm wouldn't drop Gohan's power to less than half.... Also, what feat? Statements count as feats now?

Feat, statement, whatever I'm sure you understood what I meant. Why? He took a blast meant to kill Vegeta while unguarded to the side, and was bleeding pretty badly... worse than any other character in the series thus far what it seemed. And yes. Unless you're going to follow the old Amuro Ray statement of "Goku was lying when he said Super Buu > Kid Buu just because."

shhh... don't say that too loudly....

Yeah, I figure that statements are there for a reason.

[dbzfan7]

It's pretty easy to believe that breaking Gohan's arm wouldn't drop Gohan's power to less than half.... Also, what feat? Statements count as feats now?

Feat, statement, whatever I'm sure you understood what I meant. Why? He took a blast meant to kill Vegeta while unguarded to the side, and was bleeding pretty badly... worse than any other character in the series thus far what it seemed. And yes. Unless you're going to follow the old Amuro Ray statement of "Goku was lying when he said Super Buu > Kid Buu just because."

shhh... don't say that too loudly....

Yeah, I figure that statements are there for a reason.

Exactly. I don't see no reason to have that be said just for it to mean nothing.

[Draken]

I'm sorry guys, maybe that was a bit too extreme <3. You get my point though. AT wouldn't put statements in there unless that's what he meant. He's not a deep, convoluted writer. If he says Cell can blow up the Solar System, Snake Way is 1 million kilometers, Goku was lifting ten tons on a world that didn't have Earth's gravity, etc, he says them because that's directly what he means.

[dbzfan7]

I'm sorry guys, maybe that was a bit too extreme <3. You get my point though. AT wouldn't put statements in there unless that's what he meant. He's not a deep, convoluted writer. If he says Cell can blow up the Solar System, Snake Way is 1 million kilometers, Goku was lifting ten tons on a world that didn't have Earth's gravity, etc, he says them because that's directly what he means.

Pretty much until contradicted by another statement. Such as Bootenks saying he is the strongest Boo and then Boohan claiming the same thing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's pretty easy to believe that breaking Gohan's arm wouldn't drop Gohan's power to less than half.... Also, what feat? Statements count as feats now?

Feat, statement, whatever I'm sure you understood what I meant. Why? He took a blast meant to kill Vegeta while unguarded to the side, and was bleeding pretty badly... worse than any other character in the series thus far what it seemed. And yes. Unless you're going to follow the old Amuro Ray statement of "Goku was lying when he said Super Buu > Kid Buu just because."

It's not a blatant lie though. It's like you've never heard of an exaggeration =/. He is convinced that he can't win so he is exaggeration his injuries. Really? Gohan was bleeding worse than anyone in the series? Go tell that to Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga . Unguarded or not, Gohan wouldn't lose more than half his power because he had a broken arm. You cannot take whatever someone says literally all the time.