Quality of Discussion on Kanzenshuu Going Downhill?

[Ajay]

Isn't there a dedicated power levels thread?

I've seen about 5 new threads dedicated to arguing over power levels outside of the main one.

Did I miss something or is this allowed now?

[TheGmGoken]

Isn't there a dedicated power levels thread?

I've seen about 5 new threads dedicated to arguing over power levels outside of the main one.

Did I miss something or is this allowed now?

I don;t even know. I don't know how it started quite frankly. It was so much more cleaner when it wasn't Power level threads.

[Rocketman]

You don't even remember a time before power level threads.

[Kaboom]

The power levels thread in the Fan Works section is solely intended for the posting and kind critique of fan-made lists, under the assumed understanding that they're entirely fan-made and subjective. Hence the thread being... y'know, in the Fan Works section. It's something I like to do from a mostly artistic angle, and others also like to do from... a sometimes less art-oriented approach. But I put it there and stickied it on purpose, to prevent individual "<member>'s new Android-Cell power level list version 3.1" threads from propagating in that section, because that's what happens on other forums and trust me, you don't want that here.

Sadly, I've been having to remind people "this isn't the place to argue about the same old tired crap" in that thread more often lately.

[TheGmGoken]

You don't even remember a time before power level threads.

Well I just started looking at Kanzenshuu(Previously 2 websites) around 2006 - 2007ish. I even checked out topics. Even though I joined in 2013. I've been to Kanzentai and Daizex for a good 7 - 8 years.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I thought this over for a long time when considering my response, so hopefully it hasn't been so long that this counts as a necropost.

Power levels are not the problem, it's how they're discussed that is.

There was most certainly a time when the discussion of battle powers was decidedly less pronounced, but it has always been a part of the forum in one manner or another since its conception. Blaming power level topics for a decline in forum quality is like blaming DragonBall for a decline in forum quality, in that both are just ridiculous. The forum is about DragonBall. It engenders discussion on all aspects of DragonBall. And power levels, however you may feel about them, are a part of DragonBall.

What is different is the way in which these topics are explored. They used to be debated every bit as thoroughly (even if not quite as often), but intelligently, wheras these days it seems that many people who put themselves into a debate don't understand what "debate" actually means.

A debate is not an endless back-and-forth of two sides shouting the same facts louder and louder in support of their respective arguments. A debate is not using another person's response as an opening to lay down a smartass quip that invites adversity and hostility. And a debate is most certainly not random numbers connected by arrows that loosely string together some sort of incomprehensible logic. In a debate, it is possible to concede. The natural format of debate is designed to allow for resolution and conclusion. But "losing" or giving up somehow just isn't as cool as beating on your cock until it's the longest, so what folks call a debate is instead an endless e-penis measuring contest where everyone has to be right.

Throw in that many, many, MANY strength-related arguments simply cannot and do not have concrete answers that can be proven, and you have all the tools needed for so much of what we see today. People don't like ambiguity that allows for multiple interpretations (despite that DragonBall seems to be full of them). They want solid fact that proves "This > That" so that they can sleep at night.

You are every bit as responsible for the atmosphere of your forum as are the administrators and moderators. As the series continues to gain momentum with new material like Kai, DragonBall Heroes and Battle of Gods, it brings in the usual influx of new members. Everyone agrees to the same rules upon registration, but not every single person is going to be instantly familiar with how they work in every possible circumstance. There's a learning curve.

It's easy to set a good example without being a mod about it. If you don't like how a topic is being discussed, step in and show them how to kick it old school. That's what a community is about.

Complaining gets us nowhere. The solutions are within ourselves.


~Da Lemmy

[Tyro]

[snip]

That was beautifully said, Li'l Lemmy.

It's easy to set a good example without being a mod about it. If you don't like how a topic is being discussed, step in and show them how to kick it old school. That's what a community is about.

I'd like to look at this recently closed thread as an example of how members should not act. I knew shit was about to hit the fan by the title alone, but I still took the time to read OP's post. Come to find out, I agreed with almost everything OP had to say (but came to a different conclusion). He presented an argument and used evidence from the manga to support his claim. He wasn't trying to bait anyone into a bigger-dick-than-thou competition. He wanted honest discussion about the details of the series, parts of which did and didn't involve battle powers. And how was he responded to? In a nutshell:

"Get the fuck out."
"We don't like talking about this. Leave."
"I don't like this. Please lock. kthnx."
"HERE IS DAIZENSHUU; DO NOT DEVIATE FROM DAIZENSHUU."

Jebus, people. Don't pretend like you didn't know where the topic was going before you clicked the link. If you don't like it, or didn't like it once you read it, the best thing you can do is just leave it the hell alone. Leave it to the people who like discussing these nitty-gritty details if that's not for you. Don't just come into a thread and expect someone to yield to your divine will. If you'll notice, while everyone else was busy making an immature ass of themselves, people like Darkprince410 and Super Saiyan Turlast x4 were actually responding to OP and having a civil debate. This is possible for any strength-related thread as long as people are civil. Period.

I was sad to see that VegettoEX's permanent/temporary bans were not directed at those in the thread who chose to derail it rather than contribute.

[Attitudefan]

Tyro, I must not be fazed by the power level discussions. I barely know they exist because of how often I am on them, which is never mind you.

In a way, I was hoping for VegettoEX to go old school on all of them and say what he used to say to the banned members of the past long ago.

[goku the krump dancer]

Preach Lil Lemmy, preach old wise one.

As stated before that was definitely well written. Upon reading it, I was evaluating myself to see if i've been a respectful member of this forum and I must say out of the four years I've been here, for the most part I have, though I can slip and get a little antsy every now and then and I'll work on that.

Hopefully the newer members will see your post and take from it the same things that I have, if not more.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually gone back to an older discussion and compared it to a current thread? Or maybe taken a page of threads and compared the topic titles to the one that are currently on the first page. I know this would be difficult to compare, but I would be curious if anyone actually noticed a difference in quality, or if it's just a case of age and "Bloody kids won't get off my lawn." I certainly wouldn't be able to make a comparison like that, since I'd be biased towards the 2010/2011 time-frame and I guess everyone would be (biased) if they went in with the preconception that discussions from 2013 are worse than discussions from 2007, 2009, etc.

[TheGmGoken]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually gone back to an older discussion and compared it to a current thread? Or maybe taken a page of threads and compared the topic titles to the one that are currently on the first page. I know this would be difficult to compare, but I would be curious if anyone actually noticed a difference in quality, or if it's just a case of age and "Bloody kids won't get off my lawn." I certainly wouldn't be able to make a comparison like that, since I'd be biased towards the 2010/2011 time-frame and I guess everyone would be (biased) if they went in with the preconception that discussions from 2013 are worse than discussions from 2007, 2009, etc.

I have. I do this a lot of recurring topics. Such as the fusion topics. If you take a look at recent threads of fusion I've post on I quoted from past threads. I notice some difference but not a HUGE difference. Maybe it's that one type of topic(Fusion) that haven't change a lot. Since most of the time I either see long paragraphs just like I do now. However now a days I see way more math in fusion and power levels discussion than I saw in the older topics. Nothing is wrong with Math and all but I think that might effect the discussion level. I'm a victim and an example of this. I have nothing against math as it's my favorite subject but with posts dealing with huge numbers of math in it I tend to not take as much time to respond. Not because I don't want to.

It's because in Math it's lots of formulas and equations that I doubt any of the guidebooks, editors, animators, and even Toriyama himself payed attention to. Not saying we should't use Math. I think we should use less of it. Cause I can tell(Or make an educated guess) that most members here don't want to get into math discussions and do huge numbers equations on why certain character can or can not destroy a star, planet, solar system, or galaxy. As quite frankly if the plot requires them to do so than yes they can. Fuck math for a second. Just worry about the plot. If Freeza was written to destroy a galaxy and Cell wasn't...then according to us the Math is wrong and therefore DB is filled with errors.

I also think as Lil Jimmy brought up is that we tend to just siblings argue. Not debate. To those of you who don't have sisters or brothers. Sibling argue is when you go back and forth with "I'm right", "You're wrong", "My opinion", "Your opinion", and just stating the same facts again. For example. Say your sister argue to who get to watch TV. It'll go "No cause I want to" and no "I want to" and "You got to watch it yesterday". It'll go on for a long time. Most of the debate now just state the same facts over and over game. With nothing new to add really. I do this a lot. Lately(Thanks to this topic) I've been trying not to do this. Making my post more meaningful and try to take opinions and add to my own opinion. Example of this is the idea of SSJ burst in Base form(Thanks Mighty) and power scaling(Certain characters). Now I would't say the quality is decreasing or even increasing. Just a different Era. Post(s) from 2005 are going to be different from 2007. Post from 2010 are GREATLY different from 2011 and that's a year difference. We can't expect the same style but we should expect some changes and differences.

Perhaps some of us have Kanzenshuu nostalgia . As DragonBoxZTheMovies said it could damn well be the case of "Get off my yawn kids!" and people don't want change. Trust me. I would've love to be an active poster on Kanzenshuu during 2011,12, and even early. But I made one in 2013. I'm a 2013 breed you can say. And each breed is different from the last. Hell even VegettoEX have change his online persona over the years.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Like Lil Lemmy said, it's the debate itself that's the problem. His last sentence pretty much sums up everything. We (administrators and moderators included) are every bit responsible for being civil toward each other and not be a jerk. I have to say it's getting quite tiresome seeing all the threads on an all-out war about who's right and who's wrong, and that's not how the forums should be operating under any circumstance. We never, and I repeat, never had problems with the discussions in the past, but nowadays we seem to be getting mean responses more often than not. It's sad that we have to deal with it on a daily basis.

We can be fun if we want to be. We can have fun debates if we try. But that's only if you change your mental attitude toward the users who wish to share their different perspective on certain aspects of the franchise which was created over two decades ago, which was not meant to be serious in the first place.

To be honest, I'm kind of glad this thread exists. I hope those who were very hard-nosed are reading this thread and think about what they have to change in order to make here a much friendlier community, and that's what we should aim for.

[Gogeta 00]

I'd like to hop on the Lil'Lemmy bandwagon and express my wholehearted agreement with his assessment of the problem, just to give credit where credit is due!

As a long time member/lurker who's activity has significantly diminished over the past few years I certainly sympathize and agree with the veteran members. The quality of discussion has grown much less interesting and I really miss a lot of the old members who have moved on. But in light of this I think that we ought to work together to think of ways in which we can re-ignite the old spark to improve the discussions rather than focusing so much on discussing what caused the problem (although that is certainly an interesting and important discussion in its own right).

For my part there are a couple of suggestions I can think of. We could strive to resurrect some of the most interesting topics of the past and work together to find some new insights. This may not be the most interesting and cutting edge suggestion, but it might at least provoke some thought and compel some of us to post more often. Just because something has been discussed in the past doesn't mean it has to be off limits. We could try looking back to the periods we remember most fondly in the archive to observe the types of topics and discussions that were going on at the time. If you find a topic that really speaks to you why not start a thread focused on the same general ideas to try and promote some more discussion? You might even find that you have a new insight when you revisit some of those old topics and you can formulate these new insights into an all new discussion.

These may be really weak ideas but I think that we should try and work together to come up with ways to make the discussion go uphill. Perhaps all it would take is a few people with the right type of mindset to inspire more interesting discussion in the rest of us!

[Scarz]

I've always wanted to do a in-depth study of the art and evolution of the entire DB series. Specifically the manga. But that would take some time and a ton of research. Just throwing ideas out there.

[Attitudefan]

I've always wanted to do a in-depth study of the art and evolution of the entire DB series. Specifically the manga. But that would take some time and a ton of research. Just throwing ideas out there.

As would I. I would love a sticky (or just a hope of having a long, drawn out discussion no pun intended) for the art styles of Dragonball for it follows the main site nicely after people might want to come on here to discuss such a topic after looking into the animation/art style guide.

However, only a few people seem interested to really go in-depth while the others end up posting silly pictures thus ending the conversation early.

[Godo]

I've always wanted to do a in-depth study of the art and evolution of the entire DB series. Specifically the manga. But that would take some time and a ton of research. Just throwing ideas out there.

As would I. I would love a sticky (or just a hope of having a long, drawn out discussion no pun intended) for the art styles of Dragonball for it follows the main site nicely after people might want to come on here to discuss such a topic after looking into the animation/art style guide.

However, only a few people seem interested to really go in-depth while the others end up posting silly pictures thus ending the conversation early.

It could be done if it is organized. If there are more people interested in doing this, I'm in.

[El Diabeetus]

I've always wanted to do a in-depth study of the art and evolution of the entire DB series. Specifically the manga. But that would take some time and a ton of research. Just throwing ideas out there.

As would I. I would love a sticky (or just a hope of having a long, drawn out discussion no pun intended) for the art styles of Dragonball for it follows the main site nicely after people might want to come on here to discuss such a topic after looking into the animation/art style guide.

However, only a few people seem interested to really go in-depth while the others end up posting silly pictures thus ending the conversation early.

I second with Godo, I would love to see that turn into something. Love Toriyama's style, and it's quite interesting to see how it has changed over time.

[Gogeta 00]

My knowledge of aesthetics matters is quite dull so I likely wouldn't have much to contribute in the actual discussion but I think that many users would and I would love to see this come to fruition because I think the insights you guys could make would be really interesting.

[Chuquita]

I've always wanted to do a in-depth study of the art and evolution of the entire DB series. Specifically the manga. But that would take some time and a ton of research. Just throwing ideas out there.

As would I. I would love a sticky (or just a hope of having a long, drawn out discussion no pun intended) for the art styles of Dragonball for it follows the main site nicely after people might want to come on here to discuss such a topic after looking into the animation/art style guide.

However, only a few people seem interested to really go in-depth while the others end up posting silly pictures thus ending the conversation early.

I second with Godo, I would love to see that turn into something. Love Toriyama's style, and it's quite interesting to see how it has changed over time.

I'm interested in discussing such a topic. The way art styles change over time is something I've got knowledge in.

[Kamiccolo9]

My knowledge of aesthetics matters is quite dull so I likely wouldn't have much to contribute in the actual discussion but I think that many users would and I would love to see this come to fruition because I think the insights you guys could make would be really interesting.

I second this. While I know practically nothing about art except whether I like it or not, a topic like this would, if nothing else, be extremely interesting. I say you should go for it