The Son of Katatz's evil side
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The Son of Katatz's evil side
How did the Son of Katatz develop his evil side before splitting into Kami and Piccolo Daimao? In the anime, I recall a narration about how the Son of Katatz was poisoned by the evil of humans that he experienced growing up. In the background you saw pictures of war and other strife while the figure of the Son of Katatz grows.
Unfortunately, I do not own the relevant manga chapters for this story, so I am wondering whether this anime explanation for how the Son of Katatz developed his evil side is canon or just filler.
For my own part, it seems like a pretty logical explanation. It makes one wonder what sort of things the Son of Katatz was up to before he split into Kami and Piccolo Daimao.
Unfortunately, I do not own the relevant manga chapters for this story, so I am wondering whether this anime explanation for how the Son of Katatz developed his evil side is canon or just filler.
For my own part, it seems like a pretty logical explanation. It makes one wonder what sort of things the Son of Katatz was up to before he split into Kami and Piccolo Daimao.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
I imagine that he was like pretty much everyone else that didn't have an entirely pure heart. Most people have a dark side, and the nameless Namek couldn't become God until he got rid of it. I don't think it takes anything special to have a dark side; it just happens naturally unless you're just super innocent like Goku and his kids.Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
In the manga, Kaio mentions that he was probably influenced by the bad humans he met along the way (when they are discussing how to get to Namek and whatnot). So, there is a reason suggested in the manga.Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Ah, I see. So there is some basis for the segment in the anime I referenced in my original post. I like the idea that the Son of Katatz was influenced by evil humans that he met. It is an interesting angle and makes me wish there was more backstory on this issue.rereboy wrote:In the manga, Kaio mentions that he was probably influenced by the bad humans he met along the way (when they are discussing how to get to Namek and whatnot). So, there is a reason suggested in the manga.
Since the Son of Katatz was a martial artist, the anime’s inclusion of scenes of warfare may be appropriate. Perhaps the SofK became involved in some human conflicts prior to his division?
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
My bad, I meant no other reasons other than he was influenced by the bad humans het met on his journey.rereboy wrote:In the manga, Kaio mentions that he was probably influenced by the bad humans he met along the way (when they are discussing how to get to Namek and whatnot). So, there is a reason suggested in the manga.Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
Yet I never really understood why he would get evil by that, other than him endorsing some of the bad values as true.
We see a lot of characters, including Goku, being in contact with much evil but not developing an evil side. And Goku was considered a candidate for the Kami position, and this would go for Dende as well.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
I think Gohan has a dark-side .Kamiccolo9 wrote:I imagine that he was like pretty much everyone else that didn't have an entirely pure heart. Most people have a dark side, and the nameless Namek couldn't become God until he got rid of it. I don't think it takes anything special to have a dark side; it just happens naturally unless you're just super innocent like Goku and his kids.Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
Anyways I agree with this. I see no reason why the Nameless Namekian could't have any evil in him. Everyone does. He could have been 99% good but he had 1% bad in him. I like the anime explanation but the manga kinda bluntly say he had an evil side. Just like everyone else. Also wasn't Namek full of warriors like Nail? I would't be shocked if some had evil.
Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Everyone? Apparently not GokuTheGmGoken wrote:I think Gohan has a dark-side .Kamiccolo9 wrote:I imagine that he was like pretty much everyone else that didn't have an entirely pure heart. Most people have a dark side, and the nameless Namek couldn't become God until he got rid of it. I don't think it takes anything special to have a dark side; it just happens naturally unless you're just super innocent like Goku and his kids.Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
Anyways I agree with this. I see no reason why the Nameless Namekian could't have any evil in him. Everyone does. He could have been 99% good but he had 1% bad in him. I like the anime explanation but the manga kinda bluntly say he had an evil side. Just like everyone else. Also wasn't Namek full of warriors like Nail? I would't be shocked if some had evil.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Really?Draken wrote:
Everyone? Apparently not Goku
I think Goku got a evil side. It's just so much less than his pure side that it doesn't matter.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Oh sorry shoulda been more specific. Kid Goku.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.TheGmGoken wrote:Really?Draken wrote:
Everyone? Apparently not Goku
I think Goku got a evil side. It's just so much less than his pure side that it doesn't matter.
99.99999 Pure
Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Huh. That's the first time I've ever seen Goku, of all people, described as MachiavellianBlade wrote: I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.
Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Well as DB describes it, one can be pure evil.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Well, Katatz's son wasn't stupid like Goku. My guess is this: He experienced racism from humans since he was different, and saw that many humans were selfish & greedy, which made him develop some grudge to those kind of people. However, he also met good humans, and as a Namekian, his good side was much greater. When he then purified himself to become the Kami of Earth, and thus Piccolo Daimao was born pure evil, wanting to take over the planet because humans are stupid, weak, and useless. So, he decided to terrorize the world that created him.Godo wrote:Yet I never really understood why he would get evil by that, other than him endorsing some of the bad values as true.
We see a lot of characters, including Goku, being in contact with much evil but not developing an evil side. And Goku was considered a candidate for the Kami position, and this would go for Dende as well.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Perhaps not in a Game-of-Thrones, high political subterfuge sense, but his actions in the Cell arc in regard to Gohan and the Buu arc in regard to Gotenks mystifies more-or-less everyone. His decision to not to attempt to kill Majin Buu at Super Saiyan 3, thus condemning the human race to death via Buu's act of genocide, purely out of his selfish desire to 'pass on the baton', was anything but a straight forward and innocent piece of reasoning.Kamiccolo9 wrote:Huh. That's the first time I've ever seen Goku, of all people, described as MachiavellianBlade wrote: I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.
Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Wow, I hadn't thought of it like that. This explains Piccolo's view on humans in general!DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, Katatz's son wasn't stupid like Goku. My guess is this: He experienced racism from humans since he was different, and saw that many humans were selfish & greedy, which made him develop some grudge to those kind of people. However, he also met good humans, and as a Namekian, his good side was much greater. When he then purified himself to become the Kami of Earth, and thus Piccolo Daimao was born pure evil, wanting to take over the planet because humans are stupid, weak, and useless. So, he decided to terrorize the world that created him.Godo wrote:Yet I never really understood why he would get evil by that, other than him endorsing some of the bad values as true.
We see a lot of characters, including Goku, being in contact with much evil but not developing an evil side. And Goku was considered a candidate for the Kami position, and this would go for Dende as well.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his ownBlade wrote:Perhaps not in a Game-of-Thrones, high political subterfuge sense, but his actions in the Cell arc in regard to Gohan and the Buu arc in regard to Gotenks mystifies more-or-less everyone. His decision to not to attempt to kill Majin Buu at Super Saiyan 3, thus condemning the human race to death via Buu's act of genocide, purely out of his selfish desire to 'pass on the baton', was anything but a straight forward and innocent piece of reasoning.Kamiccolo9 wrote:Huh. That's the first time I've ever seen Goku, of all people, described as MachiavellianBlade wrote: I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.
Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
I agree with that sentiment too, but I think 'machiavellian' is still a good fit. Oxford English defines it as 'the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct', which ignoring the statecraft part, seems about right to me.Kamiccolo9 wrote: Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Machiavellian is a term that originated from a real person named Niccolò Machiavelli who happened to be an author that lived in the 15th century. The term originated from his beliefs and way of thinking, that had its basis on logic and strategy mainly in the fields of politics and state. However, its a way of thinking deprived of consciousness and feelings and, it could be argued, even evil. Machiavelli, for example, in his works, considers inviting all of one's enemies for dinner in the name of peace and then poisoning them fatally as a beneficial strategy for one's advancement and one full of merit.Blade wrote:I agree with that sentiment too, but I think 'machiavellian' is still a good fit. Oxford English defines it as 'the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct', which ignoring the statecraft part, seems about right to me.Kamiccolo9 wrote: Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own
So, no, Goku is not machiavellian.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side
Machiavellianrereboy wrote:Machiavellian is a term that originated from a real person named Niccolò Machiavelli who happened to be an author that lived in the 15th century. The term originated from his beliefs and way of thinking, that had its basis on logic and strategy mainly in the fields of politics and state. However, its a way of thinking deprived of consciousness and feelings and, it could be argued, even evil. Machiavelli, for example, in his works, considers inviting all of one's enemies for dinner in the name of peace and then poisoning them fatally as a beneficial strategy for one's advancement and one full of merit.Blade wrote:I agree with that sentiment too, but I think 'machiavellian' is still a good fit. Oxford English defines it as 'the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct', which ignoring the statecraft part, seems about right to me.Kamiccolo9 wrote: Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own
So, no, Goku is not Machiavellian.
adjective
cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous, especially in politics
Cunning? In the Buu arc - yes. Scheming? Again, yes. Unscrupulous - in the self-serving 'I want to pass on the baton for my own sense of self fulfillment at the risk of the human race' kind of way, perhaps. Politically? Perhaps not.
Either way, I stand by my point. Goku is somewhat machiavellian later on in the story.
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