Super Saiyan Requirements

[RandomGuy96]

I created this thread in an effort to stop the derailing going on in the versus thread. With that in mind, I'll respond to the last post made by DBZGTKOSDH here:

Yet he gives orders to the US Army. And while they are mainly focused on fighting, it doesn't mean that everything has to do with fighting.

In the saiyan civilization, literally every single person is a warrior, and the people are grouped into classes based on their strength. It's clear that comparing Vegeta to President Obama is not a very good comparison.\

My point is that EoB is unrelated to the anime, not that it is more canon than it. We are talking about the manga & EoB right now, and the anime isn't necessarily connected to any of these two, which means that it can be ignored in out discussion.

Err, the mere fact that it is a continuation of Bardock's special means it is completely connected to the anime, if Bardock's special is to be considered part of it. Given the amount of flashbacks that tie in with this special in the anime, I don't see it wouldn't be. It's even featured at the beginning of Kai.

How do we know this? All we know about the power of the Saiyans is that they were all weaker than King Vegeta by the time the planet was destroyed, with the highest BP that we know being Bardock's 10.000, and that Vegeta at 18.000 was far stronger than the King. How strong were the Saiyans in general? How strong were they before King Vegeta's death? The reactions of Ginyu, Jheese, and Vegeta seem to suggest that 60.000+ is so unusual, that the Saiyan is considered so impossible, that he must be a Super Saiyan or a mutant.

Bardock wasn't at 10,000, he was only specified as being somewhere below it.

We know that Nappa was an elite, and he was 4,000. It's fair to say that the "standard" level is far below that.

Well, what does having a "tranquil heart" means? Being pure? Vegeta & Bardock aren't pure. And in the course of a 1.000 years, no one like Vegeta, Bardock, or Goku appeared?

If you'll look at the quote again, Vegeta draws a clear distinction between tranquility and purity. You don't have to be pure, you just have to have a tranquil heart. And yes, no one like Vegeta, Bardock, or Goku showed up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the saiyan civilization, literally every single person is a warrior, and the people are grouped into classes based on their strength. It's clear that comparing Vegeta to President Obama is not a very good comparison.

Then how about ancient Sparta? They were mainly focused on fighting like the Saiyans, but the kings also had political duties.

Err, the mere fact that it is a continuation of Bardock's special means it is completely connected to the anime, if Bardock's special is to be considered part of it. Given the amount of flashbacks that tie in with this special in the anime, I don't see it wouldn't be. It's even featured at the beginning of Kai.

Well, the ending scene of the TV Special, which acts as the opening scene of EoB, has being retconned (Zarbon & Dodoria are outside & talk, Freeza talks, and Bardock doesn't get hit by Freeza's ki blast), so...

Bardock wasn't at 10,000, he was only specified as being somewhere below it.

10.000, almost 10.000, not that important to our discussion.

We know that Nappa was an elite, and he was 4,000. It's fair to say that the "standard" level is far below that.

He is literally the only elite Saiyan we've seen. We can't judge the average level from one person, like we can't judge the average level of the low-class Saiyans from Raditz, since he was at 1.500, while Goku was at the 400s.

If you'll look at the quote again, Vegeta draws a clear distinction between tranquility and purity. You don't have to be pure, you just have to have a tranquil heart.

But my question is, what does "tranquil heart" means?

And yes, no one like Vegeta, Bardock, or Goku showed up.

That's very strange, because Vegeta is a complete asshole, Bardock is a semi-asshole, and Goku is pure like an animal...

[RandomGuy96]

Well, the ending scene of the TV Special, which acts as the opening scene of EoB, has being retconned (Zarbon & Dodoria are outside & talk, Freeza talks, and Bardock doesn't get hit by Freeza's ki blast), so...

But Bardock's whole story is still referenced and expanded upon. It's a clear sequel to the Bardock special, and therefore tied with the anime.

He is literally the only elite Saiyan we've seen. We can't judge the average level from one person, like we can't judge the average level of the low-class Saiyans from Raditz, since he was at 1.500, while Goku was at the 400s.

Elite by its very definition is above standard. Either way, we can definitely agree that, as the second most powerful saiyan alive at the time, and likely surpassing King Vegeta with that zenkai, Bardock was well above a "standard" saiyan, right?

But my question is, what does "tranquil heart" means?

I dunno. But that's the requirement, and there were no Super Saiyans before because apparently no one had a tranquil heart.

That's very strange, because Vegeta is a complete asshole, Bardock is a semi-asshole, and Goku is pure like an animal...

No less strange than no saiyan in a thousand years ever getting a random freak zenkai like Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta all got. Protagonists are supposed to be special; otherwise, we probably wouldn't be following them.

[TheGmGoken]

Y'all don't know what Tranquil means?

tran·quil
ˈtraNGkwəl/Submit
adjective
1.
free from disturbance; calm.

This is what Vegeta was talking about. A calm heart.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Bardock's whole story is still referenced and expanded upon. It's a clear sequel to the Bardock special, and therefore tied with the anime.

This would mean that the TV Special is tied with the manga, since it referenced exactly the same events. But Jaco, which also references to the events of the manga, contradicts the TV Special. But then again, the anime, which is based & expanded upon the manga, contradicts the manga (who kills Cargo, etc).

Elite by its very definition is above standard.

For the Saiyans, it's just the strongest class before the super-elites (the royal family). And if that was the case, why did Vegeta never transformed into a Super Saiyan in his whole life?

Either way, we can definitely agree that, as the second most powerful saiyan alive at the time, and likely surpassing King Vegeta with that zenkai, Bardock was well above a "standard" saiyan, right?

We don't know if Bardock was the 2nd most powerful alive. You mean that he was above the standard level before or after the power up? Because he definitely was after the power-up, but not before (which is what we are arguing).

No less strange than no saiyan in a thousand years ever getting a random freak zenkai like Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta all got. Protagonists are supposed to be special; otherwise, we probably wouldn't be following them.

Well, they had many senzu, a healing chamber, and Dende to get so many so fast, they would be dead instead of near-dead if they didn't have these.

Y'all don't know what Tranquil means?

tran·quil
ˈtraNGkwəl/Submit
adjective
1.
free from disturbance; calm.

This is what Vegeta was talking about. A calm heart.

But what does it mean having calm heart? Being calm in general? Vegeta isn't calm.

[RandomGuy96]

This would mean that the TV Special is tied with the manga, since it referenced exactly the same events. But Jaco, which also references to the events of the manga, contradicts the TV Special. But then again, the anime, which is based & expanded upon the manga, contradicts the manga (who kills Cargo, etc).

Bardock's comrades from the special are also shown. That takes it beyond merely being a reference to that story, like the manga, and puts into being a continuation of the special. It's tied to the anime, is what I'm saying.

For the Saiyans, it's just the strongest class before the super-elites (the royal family). And if that was the case, why did Vegeta never transformed into a Super Saiyan in his whole life?

As Freeza noted, he didn't have a tranquil heart awakened by intense rage. "That's why he could never become one, no matter how much he tried".

We don't know if Bardock was the 2nd most powerful alive. You mean that he was above the standard level before or after the power up? Because he definitely was after the power-up, but not before (which is what we are arguing).

Before. He was near 10,000. King Vegeta wasn't very far above that, given that Vegeta surpassed him early on and was only 18,000 in adulthood, and elite saiyan Nappa was a fly to Bardock. He's most definitely above standard with a rating like that. I don't really know what your standards are if being over twice as strong as the elites, who are over twice as strong as the low class saiyans, isn't "above the standard". And that's all he needs to be to become a Super Saiyan, according to the Daiz.

Well, they had many senzu, a healing chamber, and Dende to get so many so fast, they would be dead instead of near-dead if they didn't have these.

Freeza had healing chambers.

[Godo]

I'd say that the requirements are firstly that the Saiya-Jin is put into a state of utter desperation, and after that he realizes that there is nothing he can do in his current state, then we have acceptance. This is when the Saiya-Jin has a calm heart.
Then we have rage, and the transformation.

To accept your situation and embrace it, then letting out your rage against someone or something fully, that's when you can transform.
This would primarily fit with Goku's situation on Namek, and also Vegeta and Gohan's situations in filler.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Bardock's comrades from the special are also shown. That takes it beyond merely being a reference to that story, like the manga, and puts into being a continuation of the special. It's tied to the anime, is what I'm saying.

Still, the opening scene contradicts what we see in the special. Freeza speaks, Dodoria & Zarbon are outside & talk, Freeza uses the ki blast differently (it comes from his hand not his finger), Bardock's armor isn't destroyed, and the attack doesn't hit & kill Bardock.

Before. He was near 10,000. King Vegeta wasn't very far above that, given that Vegeta surpassed him early on and was only 18,000 in adulthood, and elite saiyan Nappa was a fly to Bardock. He's most definitely above standard with a rating like that. I don't really know what your standards are if being over twice as strong as the elites, who are over twice as strong as the low class saiyans, isn't "above the standard". And that's all he needs to be to become a Super Saiyan, according to the Daiz.

Everyone's reactions with Goku's supposed BP of 60.000 indicates to me that there were Saiyans in the near past that had reached 30.000 and above (but still far below 60.000). So, the standard level isn't below 10.000 IMO. The reason none of them never tried to overthrow him was because he was respected from them (espcecially if we take into account the anime, which has him being the leader of the attack against the Tsufruians), and because he was a capable king. Even if someone had tried to overthrow him, he had many followers to protect him.

Freeza had healing chambers.

I know, but the Saiyans didn't reach near-death multiple times to enter inside the healing chamber to get a power-up, and they also didn't have any senzu or a healer with them to save them.

[RandomGuy96]

Still, the opening scene contradicts what we see in the special. Freeza speaks, Dodoria & Zarbon are outside & talk, Freeza uses the ki blast differently (it comes from his hand not his finger), Bardock's armor isn't destroyed, and the attack doesn't hit & kill Bardock.

And, again, that doesn't really matter. Flashbacks still tie it to the anime special, it just retconned the ending.

Everyone's reactions with Goku's supposed BP of 60.000 indicates to me that there were Saiyans in the near past that had reached 30.000 and above (but still far below 60.000). So, the standard level isn't below 10.000 IMO. The reason none of them never tried to overthrow him was because he was respected from them (espcecially if we take into account the anime, which has him being the leader of the attack against the Tsufruians), and because he was a capable king. Even if someone had tried to overthrow him, he had many followers to protect him.

I find that a rather weird definition of "standard". Nappa was an elite. Elite indicates that he's above what the majority of saiyans could do. He was 4,000. Raditz was a common low class saiyan. He was 1,500. King Vegeta, the absolute strongest at the time of Vegeta's destruction, was far below 18,000. How is being many times stronger than the common saiyans, much, much stronger than the elites, and in the same league as the most powerful saiyan period NOT above standard? A standard saiyan should be closer to Raditz than Nappa.

So, again, it was never ever stated that a saiyan had to be above 30,000 to become a Super Saiyan. The "standard" leve for a saiyan is far below 4,000.

I know, but the Saiyans didn't reach near-death multiple times to enter inside the healing chamber to get a power-up, and they also didn't have any senzu or a healer with them to save them.

Why? There were a lot of saiyans, and if you're factoring in the Bardock special, it was apparently common to get multiple zenkais. None of them ever got a surprise freak zenkai like every plot relevant saiyan we see in the series? Not even one out of the billions of saiyans to exist in those thousand years?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And, again, that doesn't really matter. Flashbacks still tie it to the anime special, it just retconned the ending.

By that logic, GT is a sequel to the manga because it has the same characters.

I find that a rather weird definition of "standard". Nappa was an elite. Elite indicates that he's above what the majority of saiyans could do. He was 4,000. Raditz was a common low class saiyan. He was 1,500. King Vegeta, the absolute strongest at the time of Vegeta's destruction, was far below 18,000. How is being many times stronger than the common saiyans, much, much stronger than the elites, and in the same league as the most powerful saiyan period NOT above standard? A standard saiyan should be closer to Raditz than Nappa.

So, again, it was never ever stated that a saiyan had to be above 30,000 to become a Super Saiyan. The "standard" leve for a saiyan is far below 4,000.

It is determined from their birth if they are low-class or elites. Nappa was born with a high BP for a baby and was considered an elite, while Bardock was born with a low BP of a baby and was considered a low-class. Nappa didn't become an elite because his BP was 4.000.

Why? There were a lot of saiyans, and if you're factoring in the Bardock special, it was apparently common to get multiple zenkais. None of them ever got a surprise freak zenkai like every plot relevant saiyan we see in the series? Not even one out of the billions of saiyans to exist in those thousand years?

It's possible that they didn't get to that level because they died young in battle (since they were fighting all the time as soldiers), or because they didn't get close to near-death enough times, or both in some cases. Besides, Freeza killed them because they were all rapidly getting stronger, which made him fear that a Super Saiyan (or more that one) would appear.

[RandomGuy96]

By that logic, GT is a sequel to the manga because it has the same characters.

Not the same thing; GT is a sequel to the anime. It does share characters with the manga, but only because the manga shares characters with the anime, despite many events being changed. EoB shares characters with the special that don't appear anywhere else.

It is determined from their birth if they are low-class or elites. Nappa was born with a high BP for a baby and was considered an elite, while Bardock was born with a low BP of a baby and was considered a low-class. Nappa didn't become an elite because his BP was 4.000.

So what are you trying to say? Nappa at 4,000 was considered below the standard level?

With the way Nappa and Vegeta treat Raditz, and Vegeta's boasts about being an elite, it's pretty safe to say that Nappa was stronger than most saiyans before Vegeta's destruction.

It's possible that they didn't get to that level because they died young in battle (since they were fighting all the time as soldiers), or because they didn't get close to near-death enough times, or both in some cases. Besides, Freeza killed them because they were all rapidly getting stronger, which made him fear that a Super Saiyan (or more that one) would appear.

Every single one? Not a single of the billions of saiyans to ever exist just got lucky? Not any of the saiyans that were apparently getting zenkais all the time when Bardock was around?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not the same thing; GT is a sequel to the anime. It does share characters with the manga, but only because the manga shares characters with the anime, despite many events being changed. EoB shares characters with the special that don't appear anywhere else.

Then by that logic, the anime & the manga take place in the same world, with events in the anime being retconned. Or, the movies take place in the same world with the anime, with retconned events so that the movies can fit.

So what are you trying to say? Nappa at 4,000 was considered below the standard level?

No, he is in the standard level. Nappa never was an elite because he had large battle power in his life time, he was an elite because he had a large battle power when he was born. Bardock was close to 10.000, and he was still considered a low-class warrior.

With the way Nappa and Vegeta treat Raditz, and Vegeta's boasts about being an elite, it's pretty safe to say that Nappa was stronger than most saiyans before Vegeta's destruction.

Well, I personally disagree with the 4.000 number for Nappa. I believe he is close to 8.000.

Every single one? Not a single of the billions of saiyans to ever exist just got lucky? Not any of the saiyans that were apparently getting zenkais all the time when Bardock was around?

Billions? They were said to be few in numbers, and an example of a race with a small population are the Namekians, who were less than a hundred. And the strong Saiyans (like Bardock) sound like they are not many.

[RandomGuy96]

No, he is in the standard level. Nappa never was an elite because he had large battle power in his life time, he was an elite because he had a large battle power when he was born. Bardock was close to 10.000, and he was still considered a low-class warrior.

So again, what are you saying? Elites aren't actually elite? Bardock at 10,000 would be above most saiyans, most likely all of them except the king himself. He's "above the standard level" by any reasonable definition.

Well, I personally disagree with the 4.000 number for Nappa. I believe he is close to 8.000.

Disagree if you want, but that's his level.

Billions? They were said to be few in numbers, and an example of a race with a small population are the Namekians, who were less than a hundred. And the strong Saiyans (like Bardock) sound like they are not many.

I highly doubt that their population was THAT low. Even a species with a small number of individuals should have a decent amount of people when you factor in everyone who ever lived and died for a thousand years.

[ABED]

So again, what are you saying? Elites aren't actually elite? Bardock at 10,000 would be above most saiyans, most likely all of them except the king himself. He's "above the standard level" by any reasonable definition.

No, I think he's saying that Saiyan culture is like a caste system, and not a meritocracy. Bardock became stronger than Nappa even though he was probably born with a relatively low battle power. He would definitely be a rarity among the Saiyan race. This played out between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta was the arrogant prince, and Goku explicitly stated that maybe a lower class Saiyan could defeat an elite if they trained hard enough.

[Fionordequester]

This played out between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta was the arrogant prince, and Goku explicitly stated that maybe a lower class Saiyan could defeat an elite if they trained hard enough.

Didn't Goku get pulverized?

[ABED]

This played out between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta was the arrogant prince, and Goku explicitly stated that maybe a lower class Saiyan could defeat an elite if they trained hard enough.

Didn't Goku get pulverized?

I meant their entire rivalry

[Fionordequester]

Ah, got it!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So again, what are you saying? Elites aren't actually elite? Bardock at 10,000 would be above most saiyans, most likely all of them except the king himself. He's "above the standard level" by any reasonable definition.

No, I'm saying that it's not their battle power that makes them elites. Nappa wasn't an elite because his BP was 4.000, and Raditz wasn't a low-class because his BP was 1.500. Their BP are irrelevant to their status.

You believe that Bardock was above the standard level because you have standard level = average level. I don't see it like that.

I highly doubt that their population was THAT low. Even a species with a small number of individuals should have a decent amount of people when you factor in everyone who ever lived and died for a thousand years.

I'm not saying that they were that low, but they definitely weren't millions. Besides, the reason that Freeza killed all of them was because they were getting rapidly stronger. It was Freeza that stopped them from getting so strong.

[RandomGuy96]

You believe that Bardock was above the standard level because you have standard level = average level. I don't see it like that.

And this is pretty much it. Different interpretation of the word "standard". You have yours, I have mine. I never sought to disprove the idea that a saiyan must be between 30 and 90 thousand to become a Super Saiyan, just to disprove the notion that said theory was anything other than a theory.