So series like Street Fighter,Maden,CoD get excused on this?

[Hellspawn28]

You can't compare Madden to DBZ because football in the US is huge. Everyone I know watches the Ravens and Gamestop has midnight openings for those games. If Namco Bandai wants DBZ games to sell well again then they have to make a good game. People stop buying DBZ games because the reviews for them are either meh or terrible. A lot of people always end up saying "This looks the same as the last one" which turns people off.

[Taku128]

When Mortal Kombat 4 hit the scene, the side-step was introduced into the MK community. Then when Deadly Alliance came along, the combo system was changed up with styles and side-walk inclusion, introducing an even newer level of focal adhesion. The closed minded MK players disliked these changes and would make claims like "Mortal Kombat died after MK3". This is completely untrue, for many opened minded players welcomes the new style of Mortal Kombat (myself included) as it presented the opportunity to hone skills beyond that of the traditional fighter. In such a case, the opened minded player will not have complaints about any MK game, from the traditional style to the new.

No, people didn't like the 3D Mortal Kombat games because they were straight up bad. They're shallow and don't hold a candle to deeper 3D fighters like Tekken or Virtua Fighter. If people were "close-minded" they wouldn't like any fighting game that wasn't the first one they played, and that's not the case with a single person I've ever talked to about fighting games.


On the subject of DBZ games, they get slammed more than other series because the games aren't good. While Call of Duty might be the same thing every year, and that thing might not appeal to you or me, there's no denying it's well made. The same can be said of Madden, of Street Fighter, of Mario, and of a lot of AAA games that come out annually, regardless of my personal opinions of those franchises.

Dragon Ball Z games on the other hand are poorly made. They're shallow, the controls are confusing, they have very obviously low production values. The product just isn't good, so when nothing is done to improve that product year after year people slam it more and more. It's like the difference between Marvel movies and the Transformers movies. I'm not a fan of Marvel's movies, but I can't deny they're decently made, and as such I can see why people enjoy them. The Transformers movies on the other hand are total garbage, so I'm much more likely to slam them when brought up in discussion, just as I've done here.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Alright guys, I changed the topic title part from Mario to Madden, because I understand why Mario is popular, though I WISH they do something else than doing the same plot over and over again.

Street Fighter can always add new fighters and tweak the gameplay.

So can Dragonball. Just put in new characters and a new story, then we're good to go. Do something fresh like to catch the people's attention like they did with Ultimate Tenkaichi(though I somewhat thought the reason why it got a lot of attention was because of the name "Tenkaichi") make a Sagas style game, make a Super DBZ game sequel. It can be like Shin Budokai 2, or Dragon Ball Heroes, or heck, even Goku Jr's adventures. I for one wanna see the franchise or at least the Dragonball name live on for generations JUST like Street Fighter.

Mario and Ryu may be game icons, but Goku's a big anime icon. The problem is that people in the US don't care about anime much, that's why many anime including the DB series don't get attention nor respect.

There are a finite amount of usable Dragonball characters and a majority of them have made it into a game in one form or another. By now, chances are there is a game out there that has your favorite character(probably multiples). Unlike Street Fighter, there isn't much room for tweaking the gameplay. Look at this forum, the hardcore Dragonball website, and there is an easy divide on what's important to the people buying these games. Fact is, unlike most traditional fighters, it's impossible to get too deep without alienating the core audience. And they are the only ones buying these games. It's not without effort, Super Dragonball Z tried; but it didn't stick.

Fact is, as you said in your second point, no one cares about Dragonball. It has nothing to do with anime; anime isn't as popular as it was 10 years ago but it's not like people shun anime. No one can seem to shut up about Attack on Titan. Fact is, Dragonball is done and people are over it. It's been 10 years of game, after game, after game. This is for a finished franchised, that in Japan finished almost 20 years ago.

[Quebaz]

There are a finite amount of usable Dragonball characters and a majority of them have made it into a game in one form or another. By now, chances are there is a game out there that has your favorite character(probably multiples). Unlike Street Fighter, there isn't much room for tweaking the gameplay. Look at this forum, the hardcore Dragonball website, and there is an easy divide on what's important to the people buying these games. Fact is, unlike most traditional fighters, it's impossible to get too deep without alienating the core audience. And they are the only ones buying these games. It's not without effort, Super Dragonball Z tried; but it didn't stick.

Fact is, as you said in your second point, no one cares about Dragonball. It has nothing to do with anime; anime isn't as popular as it was 10 years ago but it's not like people shun anime. No one can seem to shut up about Attack on Titan. Fact is, Dragonball is done and people are over it. It's been 10 years of game, after game, after game. This is for a finished franchised, that in Japan finished almost 20 years ago.

It was sadly, released at a time where DBZ fans only cared about having 70+ characters as Tenkaichi 1 was released the year before and Tenkaichi 2 was on the horizon.
Was it released as the first game for PS360 or after Budokai 3, I think things would have been different.

[EXBadguy]

A lot of people always end up saying "This looks the same as the last one" which turns people off.

Oh, you know they're lying when they say that, they know they do want the same rehashed crap. Look what happened with Ultimate Tenkaichi. Even if the game had good gameplay, they STILL would bitch because it isn't Tenkaichi. Lies lies lies lies LIES LIES LIES LIIIIIIES!!!!!!!

God. I'm trying to get through to yall to see why you made Namco Bandai not make anymore Tenkaichi but all I see is "it's the same crap! It's the same crap! it's the same crap". Okay, tell me, if Namco Bandai were able to make a Tenkaichi 4 or RB3, what should they do, what should they add, what should they innovate. TELL ME! SPECI-FUCKING-FY!! Because, again, that's one of the reasons why we ain't getting a Tenkaichi game and why the gaming franchise is crumbling. Some of yall wanna see here and cry to the screen and scream " WHY CAN'T WE GET A FAWKING RB3 or BT4" "NAMCO BANDAI YOU SUCK!" "WHY CAN'T WE GET THIS!" WHY CAN'T WE GET THAT!"

I'm telling ya, If NB is brave enough to do another Tenkaichi game and gets flak for it, I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL! Now I gotta calm down. *woosah*

Have a happy new year!

but it's not like people shun anime. No one can seem to shut up about Attack on Titan.

Heh! Won't negate my statement that people like anime are still a minority, y'know.

[AgitoZ]

Oh, you know they're lying when they say that, they know they do want the same rehashed crap. Look what happened with Ultimate Tenkaichi. Even if the game had good gameplay, they STILL would bitch because it isn't Tenkaichi. Lies lies lies lies LIES LIES LIES LIIIIIIES!!!!!!!

They bitched cause the game wasn't that good. That's what it all comes down to, whether a game is good or not. And DBZ has had a pretty bad record of making quality games.

[EXBadguy]

Oh, you know they're lying when they say that, they know they do want the same rehashed crap. Look what happened with Ultimate Tenkaichi. Even if the game had good gameplay, they STILL would bitch because it isn't Tenkaichi. Lies lies lies lies LIES LIES LIES LIIIIIIES!!!!!!!

They bitched cause the game wasn't that good. That's what it all comes down to, whether a game is good or not. And DBZ has had a pretty bad record of making quality games.

Like I said again, even if the gameplay was good, they still would complain for a Tenkaichi. They asked for something new. Well, THEY GOT IT! That's what they get for not SPECIFYING!!

Okay, why don't you tell me why the gameplay of RB2 games failed attract the public in the first place when it did improved over RB1's gameplay, along with many fans bashing Spike and Namco about how "Sparking Omega" was gonna suck(before it was proven to be false). Heck, I won't be surprised if they would get flak from the fans if gave out the Tenkaichi HD Collection with a good online. They gonna be like "They're officially running out of ideas" "I want BT4".

[Weejus]

The only time Mario was inexcusable was NSMB2. That game did nothing new (if you mention the coins I will slap you). Even then, he gets away with it because Mario's target demographic is children and casual gamers who don't look into gaming too deeply. The reason DBZ games get so much hate is because it's audience is the type of gamers who do look into the minutiae, who are not as easily impressed. And we all know CoD is the butt monkey of the gaming industry, along with Final Fantasy. Sports games like Fifa and Madden do not change much because you can't really change a realistic sport simulation much without affecting how well it emulates the real thing.

Also, happy new year, Kanzenshuu forumites!

[dbboxkaifan]

Even then, he gets away with it because Mario's target demographic is children and casual gamers who don't look into gaming too deeply.

You mustn't have played Mario 3D World, Mario 3D Land, New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario 2 Original, Mario Sunshine, Mario 64 or the rest because it's far from being for children or casual players, it requires for the gamers to play with skill and securely otherwise they'll be dying more times than they can count.

Know what Nintendo's giving for these kind of people? White Tanooki on SMD3L & SMD3W. Although the White Tanooki makes the stages 99% safe for the noobs even then with the White Tanooki they can't escape from lavas, pitfalls or some other kind of crap.

Mike the Motherfucker even made a rant video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKiBTMbJU2k

He makes a very valid point but he should've acknowledge that the White Tanooki is for the less fortunate people who don't know how to play but yet manage to have fun with it.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Heh! Won't negate my statement that people like anime are still a minority, y'know.

Name one time, outside of Japan(maybe...) where anime fans were in the majority. Because even in the height of it's popularity, I've never seen anime fandom in the majority. Was it stronger than it is today, yes. But I see more anime influences in culture now(especially cinematically) than I have in the past even if the medium itself isn't in the spot light. But all that means nothing, when the anime in discussion is two decades old. It's been sighted as the creative influence for most of the animes going on today; scratch that, we're getting to the point were the animes Dragonball influenced are being the influences for new animes today.

People don't care about Dragonball anymore because they audience that did, was 11-12 when Budokai came out and are now in there twenties. That's ten years of game, after game, after game. As someone who has been on this site for years and is an active member of this sub forum I can tell you even I have stopped caring. There really isn't a whole lot they can do to wow me.

And while people will beg and demand a Tenkachi 4 or a Raging Blast 3; I can tell you given Spikes track record, those people will be disappointed. Tenkaichi 4 is widely demanded because 3 was the last (widely accepted) good game to come out...7 years ago. Raging Blast 3 is demanded because Raging Blast is the only "decent" game to come out this gen. Burst Limit fell short, UT was a failure, Kinect was just...sad and everyone on this forum insists on ripping Artdink and Battle of Z a new one.

It's hard to blame them, again how can you get excited for something that you've seen over and over again. It's hard to get pumped when, oh hey, Gohan is going to be in the game. OH MY GOD, GOHAN! And a Namek level, WOOO!

I got to say reading the stuff people are saying about Mario is depressing. Lets just ignore how different and awesome Galaxy and 3D World are.

[Dalesy]

You see the same moves every time. I may love it, but I'm telling it like it is. I honestly don't know HOW it managed to get mainstreamed so much after it started in the 80s.

I'm sorry, but...what? How can you even begin to say that you see the same moves every time? Yes, of course, Ryu will always be able to use Hadouken, and Guile will always be able to use Sonic Boom, but to say that there is overbearing similarity in the move list across the iterations is utter nonsense. Look at the difference in character roster from SF, SFII, SFAlpha, SFIII, and SFIV. You have brand new characters in every release. All of these characters have their own set of moves. You can't possibly sit here and tell me that the games are similar because of consistency in the move list when the character roster switches as often as it does. There is a whole host of characters from SF Alpha who don't appear in any other games. The same goes for SFIII, which added an entirely new roster other than Ryu and Ken.

And I know I may come across as an SF fanboy, but this has actual, real implications for your question. Dragon Ball is completed. There is no room for new characters or story, aside from maybe the cast of Jaco. There is not enough flexibility for the games to change, UNLESS they completely revamp the style of game. Street Fighter has this room, and makes innovations in the form of new characters, new systems, and new mechanics from game to game.

This is why the DB games get so much shit comparatively, because they refuse to abandon the behind the back camera, press (insert button here) to win style of game.

[Hellspawn28]

Making new games once every year was a bad idea. I get why they did it a yearly thing because these games used to make a lot of money for both Atari and Bandai. I think after 2009, they should have taken a break and done a new game once every two or three years.

[goku the krump dancer]

To be fair for capcom.. I dont know if this was said already but every new iteration of Street Fighter 4 was more or less just an expansion. Super Street Fighter 4/Arcade Edition/Arcade Edition 2012/ Ultra Street Fighter 4 are all still Street Fighter 4, Capcom never marketed them as true "sequels" just bigger and better versions of the original game, which the same cant really be said for the other franchises that were mentioned.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

I'm sure they do in fact have their differences, otherwise they would in fact be the exact same game. There are many forms of evolution in the gaming construct, so I will not argue with you. I am a competitive gamer at heart, but I'm not going to pretend I'm fully educated in the evolution of Street Fighter's depth. My main point was not to simply say Street Fighter is one dimensional, I merely suggested the differences of judging games when regarding closed minded players vs open minded ones.

I'm still having a hard time trying to define what a close minded competitive player is and how it relates to Street Fighter considering what you said about Street Fighter isn't exactly true. You compared the Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter players and their ability(or inability) to embrace change. You act like Street Fighter doesn't add change to their games or that players aren't willing to embrace that change. When in fact none of that is true. I can think of only one time the collective Street Fighter got into a shit fit and that was when Street Fighter EX came out. It was for good reason too, Not only did the 2D combo system not work well in a 3D environment, but the physics and fighting mechanics were terrible in comparison to the stronger 3D fighters out at the time(specifically Tekken or Street Fighter). Also this notion that you can jump in at Street Fighter 35 and feel at home is completely untrue. If you were to jump from Third Strike into SFIV, you'd probably get thrown around for awhile. Yes there are some things that carry over( Quarter Circle Turn+Punch still equals Haduken for Ryu) but EX counters, Timing, Ultras and Supers and all sorts of minor tweaks make the games really different. Hell jumping from Street Fighter IV into SFIV Arcade edition is going to be a bit off putting without some time and practice. But none of this can be applied to Dragonball anyway.

The Dragonball games offer nothing on the competitive level; at least not to the same degree. I know there are some really talented Budokai and Tenkaichi players but the skill level pairs in comparison to any other fighting game, be it Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat or Tekken. Also there is nothing new for the non hardcore fans to get into. For over 10 years, we've gotten the same experience story and character wise and only one major shift in gameplay style(Tenkaichi). The Budokai games did well because they were new; Budokai 1 was a gift from the gods for Dragonball fan outside of Japan. Tenkaichi changed styles and added a billion characters, but no game this gen has been able to offer something that we haven't already experienced since. Unlike any game OP mentioned, Dragoball doesn't really have that much room to evolve. The series is old and finished. Street Fighter can always add new fighters and tweak the gameplay, and Mario has always offered unique and dynamic experiences. Even CoD has room to shake things up...it won't, but it can.

OK, forgive me as I am just now catching up with everyone. I have to respond to more than one person but I'll try to keep on point.

To your first paragraph:
I should have specified that one should only consider the extremes of closed minded vs opened minded players. Of course, some players are more closed minded than others. What I am suggesting resides in the idea that closed minded players operate with elitism. The first game that fits their style is "the best" and any game that does not fit their game's construct is to be considered lacking, both in skill requirement and depth. Your response seems to be well directed at the idea that I do not believe there is any variation in SF at all... this is not the case. If you read the post you responded to, I clearly mentioned that I do not pretend to be fully educated in the evolution of Street Fighter's depth. However, I will say with full confidence that Mortal Kombat has changed a lot more than Street Fighter has, so comparatively speaking, my statement does hold merit for this argument. Whether these be a positive or not is in your hands to decide, but it would still be based on YOUR opinion relating to how you like to play. Every player is different, obviously. That being said, what you see as a dead end or limitation in a game's fighting construct, another player may see as a new skill development. I use MK Deadly Alliance as an example because it is a good one, and I can base this on the comparison of Zoning/Spacing to 3d movement. In the 2D environment, Zoning/Spacing is crucial in maneuvering abilities, both for offensive and defensive means. The side step removes significance from this technical requirement as it allows emphasis to be put on the sidestep. A closed minded player who believes zoning and spacing to be the pinnacle of maneuvering requirement would think the side step takes away from HIS style... and therefore, produces a game of less value (at least in this aspect). An opened minded player will see the sidestep as an OPPORTUNITY to learn a new form of defensive/offensive game-play. In fact, it transforms the zoning concept in a 3 dimensional world. Notice in 2d fighters, both players are constantly moving back and forth for proper zoning... while in 3d games, players are moving back and forth as well as side movement incorporation. So I say again, my argument is not simply that Street Fighter is a one dimensional game, because how would I know? But there are plenty of "traditional style" players (be it in Street Fighter or early MK) that refuse to acknowledge the technical depth included in newer 3d games because it can be construed as nerfing their own traditionally-styled skills.

About the "you can jump in at Street Fighter 35 and feel at home is completely untrue" notion, you're right. That was jumping the gun. Who knows how many changes that might take place?

To your second paragraph:
Here, I feel it necessary to refer you to the beginning of my short story above: there is a wide range for competitive hunger in the gaming community. This relates directly to how badly you want to be great at a game; how much you are willing to DIG in order to find DEPTH. Your statement: "The Dragonball games offer nothing on the competitive level; at least not to the same degree." This, to me, sounds like you either haven't discovered the competitive nature of the games due to lack of competition OR you simply choose not to acknowledge it. I will add my own opinion to support your statement by saying I believe the Dragon Ball game COMMUNITY doesn't offer as much in terms of the competitive level because only a small portion of the DBZ gaming community has discovered the competitive nature of the games; the true depth of technical and mechanical advancement. Not to mention, a large portion of the dbz gaming community is only interested in the DBZ experience, not competitive gaming. This does not suggest that DBZ games lack the competitive potential, it simply means that a great number of its players choose not to play competitively, choose not to train for greatness, etc. Also, to compare skill levels required for DBZ games in relation to Street Fighter (or any other game)... I think you're aimed to bite off more than you can chew, at least for some DBZ games. Again, I have not played the Raging Blast games or Ultimate Tenkaichi. They could be trash, they could be great. But I DO know Tenkaichi 2, and it has FAR more depth and skill requirement on the advanced level than anyone ever expected.

As for DBZ's storyline and any room for evolution... I somewhat agree, but for different reasons. They packed A LOT into the DBZ games in terms of character roster, which I could take or leave. Of course they can always bring new characters to Street Fighter, they don't have 160 characters to choose from. Regardless, I do see your point. They can always come up with something new for Street Fighter, and I applaud this. In fact, I never said I don't like Street Fighter or find it dull. I ordered SFIV off Amazon and am extremely angry that I have yet to receive it. First problem I've had with Amazon. AAAAnd... I agree with the rest, more or so.

Fact is, unlike most traditional fighters, it's impossible to get too deep without alienating the core audience. And they are the only ones buying these games.

This speaks volumes, I couldn't agree more.

No, people didn't like the 3D Mortal Kombat games because they were straight up bad. They're shallow and don't hold a candle to deeper 3D fighters like Tekken or Virtua Fighter. If people were "close-minded" they wouldn't like any fighting game that wasn't the first one they played, and that's not the case with a single person I've ever talked to about fighting games.


On the subject of DBZ games, they get slammed more than other series because the games aren't good. While Call of Duty might be the same thing every year, and that thing might not appeal to you or me, there's no denying it's well made. The same can be said of Madden, of Street Fighter, of Mario, and of a lot of AAA games that come out annually, regardless of my personal opinions of those franchises.

Dragon Ball Z games on the other hand are poorly made. They're shallow, the controls are confusing, they have very obviously low production values. The product just isn't good, so when nothing is done to improve that product year after year people slam it more and more. It's like the difference between Marvel movies and the Transformers movies. I'm not a fan of Marvel's movies, but I can't deny they're decently made, and as such I can see why people enjoy them. The Transformers movies on the other hand are total garbage, so I'm much more likely to slam them when brought up in discussion, just as I've done here.

So...
3d MK games are straight up bad... because... hmm.
DBZ games aren't good... because... hmm.
Oh, OK. It's in the last paragraph. DBZ games are poorly made because they are "shallow, controls are confusing and have very low production values."

I will not deny the possibility that some DBZ games may come off as "shallow", but again, I think this is likely due to the possibility that you have yet to discover the true depth of the game. The controls are confusing? I don't see how someone could complain about a game being too shallow, while possessing controls too complex to understand... unless... maybe the player has yet to reach the advanced level. In fact, one does not have to even reach the advanced level to reach a proper understanding of the game's controls. Very low production values? I haven't done any research, so I won't address that. You can have it.

Making new games once every year was a bad idea. I get why they did it a yearly thing because these games used to make a lot of money for both Atari and Bandai. I think after 2009, they should have taken a break and done a new game once every two or three years.

Also, completely agree.

[Hellspawn28]

With Street Fighter, they do a major game in the franchise like once a decade. SF4 came out like 11 or 12 years after Street Fighter came out back in 1997 and not ever year like DBZ does. We get DBZ games every year from 2002 - 2012 because Budokai 1 made a lot of money and Budokai 1 did well because of timing. Budokai 1 came out when DBZ was still popular in the US and the new episodes were airing on Toonami. To me, the third Sparking game was the last great selling DBZ game because the game had a lot of fan hype on the Internet because the large selection of characters.

[Weejus]

Even then, he gets away with it because Mario's target demographic is children and casual gamers who don't look into gaming too deeply.

You mustn't have played Mario 3D World, Mario 3D Land, New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario 2 Original, Mario Sunshine, Mario 64 or the rest because it's far from being for children or casual players, it requires for the gamers to play with skill and securely otherwise they'll be dying more times than they can count.

Know what Nintendo's giving for these kind of people? White Tanooki on SMD3L & SMD3W. Although the White Tanooki makes the stages 99% safe for the noobs even then with the White Tanooki they can't escape from lavas, pitfalls or some other kind of crap.

Mike the Motherfucker even made a rant video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKiBTMbJU2k

He makes a very valid point but he should've acknowledge that the White Tanooki is for the less fortunate people who don't know how to play but yet manage to have fun with it.

I have played all of these. I recognise their difficulty but I stand by my statement about who Mario appeals to and why its time-honoured gameplay means innovation isn't the highest of priorities. Mario games are almost always advertised to children and families as that's who buy them most.

[dbboxkaifan]

The only reason you have that mentality is because Nintendo advertised it as such, but still, the game is far from being for family/kid audiences.

Just watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUNm816QUOE

If it were a bunch of kids or a bunch of family members they'd just stop playing (rage quit) due to dying too often.

[EXBadguy]

Name one time, outside of Japan(maybe...) where anime fans were in the majority. Because even in the height of it's popularity, I've never seen anime fandom in the majority. Was it stronger than it is today, yes. But I see more anime influences in culture now(especially cinematically) than I have in the past even if the medium itself isn't in the spot light. But all that means nothing, when the anime in discussion is two decades old. It's been sighted as the creative influence for most of the animes going on today; scratch that, we're getting to the point were the animes Dragonball influenced are being the influences for new animes today.

I'd even go far by saying that DBZ is the Michael Jackson of anime. Like you see other music artists list him is their influences, Same as you see other creators like Eichiro Oda(One Piece) Masashi Kishimoto(Naruto), Tite Kubo(Bleach), etc., state that Dragonball was one of their influence.

It's hard to blame them, again how can you get excited for something that you've seen over and over again. It's hard to get pumped when, oh hey, Gohan is going to be in the game. OH MY GOD, GOHAN! And a Namek level, WOOO!

I respect those who just stopped, but who I'm really talking about are the ones that bitched and bitched about the games lacking innovation. Like I keep saying over and over again, this fanbase needs to SPECIFY what new things they want, otherwise we'll end up getting more crappy DBZ games like UT(though I actually liked it to a degree). You say you want something new, well ya got it!

I'm sorry, but...what? How can you even begin to say that you see the same moves every time? Yes, of course, Ryu will always be able to use Hadouken, and Guile will always be able to use Sonic Boom, but to say that there is overbearing similarity in the move list across the iterations is utter nonsense. Look at the difference in character roster from SF, SFII, SFAlpha, SFIII, and SFIV. You have brand new characters in every release. All of these characters have their own set of moves. You can't possibly sit here and tell me that the games are similar because of consistency in the move list when the character roster switches as often as it does. There is a whole host of characters from SF Alpha who don't appear in any other games. The same goes for SFIII, which added an entirely new roster other than Ryu and Ken.

And I know I may come across as an SF fanboy, but this has actual, real implications for your question. Dragon Ball is completed. There is no room for new characters or story, aside from maybe the cast of Jaco. There is not enough flexibility for the games to change, UNLESS they completely revamp the style of game. Street Fighter has this room, and makes innovations in the form of new characters, new systems, and new mechanics from game to game.

This is why the DB games get so much shit comparatively, because they refuse to abandon the behind the back camera, press (insert button here) to win style of game.

Looks like I did my best to rial real fighting gamers like you up, huh? Listen man, I KNOW they improve by game mechanics, I. KNOW! Hence why I said I love the Street Fighter series. But I'm trying to talk about the casual point of view. People say the Raging Blast games look the same, but when you actually play them, they're really not...much. Same goes for Street Fighter, all you see is the same rehashed fighting animations in most games(and I DO see people say that all Street Fighter games are the same), but when you actually play them, they're not. You see what I'm saying here? How does it feel when somebody bashes SF4 for looking the same without playing it, huh? That's how some people felt when Raging Blast 2 was around AND when it had new stuff.

[Dalesy]

Looks like I did my best to rial real fighting gamers like you up, huh? Listen man, I KNOW they improve by game mechanics, I. KNOW! Hence why I said I love the Street Fighter series. But I'm trying to talk about the casual point of view. People say the Raging Blast games look the same, but when you actually play them, they're really not...much. Same goes for Street Fighter, all you see is the same rehashed fighting animations in most games(and I DO see people say that all Street Fighter games are the same), but when you actually play them, they're not. You see what I'm saying here? How does it feel when somebody bashes SF4 for looking the same without playing it, huh? That's how some people felt when Raging Blast 2 was around AND when it had new stuff.

You seem to seriously underestimate the amount that changes in between Street Fighter games. Compare the difference in gameplay from SFIII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDYANa9a-mU) to SFIV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zetoK600AmI). The playstyles could not be farther apart. There's very little jumping in SFIII, making for a more footsie based game that relies on hit-confirm supers for big damage. There's also the parry system, which is exclusive to SFIII. In SFIV, you notice that players go for a number of jump-ins, fireball setups, knockdown vortexes, and crossups, with big damage coming from FADC Ultras (a combination of two things that didn't even exist in any previous SF title). The differences are immense.

Now, let's look at the difference between Budokai Tenkaichi 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMDKEwFiFA) and Raging Blast 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV5oytNltTo). Now, even though these games are really only related in a spiritual sort of way, you immediately notice a number of striking similarities in the gameplay. Even with new mechanics like counters, sway, etc., the gameplay in RB2 is still heavily focused on melee combos followed up by either teleports or flying chasedowns, with the occasional super attack thrown in. Both games feature mechanics like power ups and ki charging. The major updates, at least the ones that made a tangible impact on the game, came in the areas of graphics and environments.

So to compare the two examples, on one hand we have the Street Fighter series, which in one iteration managed to completely change the way the game was played. On the other, the Tenkaichi/Raging Blast games, which feature extremely similar gameplay, despite the fact that they're not even part of the same series of games, and are several iterations apart.

So it's no wonder that most DBZ fans seem to bored out of their minds with this style of game. We've been getting similar games since 2005, when the first Budokai Tenkaichi hit the shelves. There have been no major innovations in the BT and RB series, so of course, fans are sick and tired of it. It goes beyond visual similarity, these games play in a very similar manner.

[budokaifanatic007]

So it's no wonder that most DBZ fans seem to bored out of their minds with this style of game. We've been getting similar games since 2005, when the first Budokai Tenkaichi hit the shelves. There have been no major innovations in the BT and RB series, so of course, fans are sick and tired of it. It goes beyond visual similarity, these games play in a very similar manner.

So do you think NB should go back to the abandoned Budokai series??