Kai Episode 109 (15 June 2014)

[Valerius Dover]

That´s your opinion man, it´s not that bad. But well, the opening track was serious, but it was still good. it´s not like the terrible placement in Z where the ginyu force was introduced and a serious battle theme played... if you defend that, I can defend the opening scene in this episode because it was still action

Wait, really? A serious battle theme played in their introduction? And people say the English dub used a serious theme. I actually liked their initial theme in the dub (for Episodes 61-67). I thought it suited them quite nice.

[Black_Liger]

That´s your opinion man, it´s not that bad. But well, the opening track was serious, but it was still good. it´s not like the terrible placement in Z where the ginyu force was introduced and a serious battle theme played... if you defend that, I can defend the opening scene in this episode because it was still action

Wait, really? A serious battle theme played in their introduction? And people say the English dub used a serious theme. I actually liked their initial theme in the dub (for Episodes 61-67). I thought it suited them quite nice.

They used the second track in this video for the original japanese ginyu force intro, not only it´s not written especifically for the scene, but it´s a common battle theme in that saga.


And I pretty much agree with Cold Skin on everything. I might be able to see where are you coming from with the fanfare, but I still think the placement was brilliant.

[GarrettCRW]

Anyone ever watch the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? It's the episode crosses over with "The Trouble With Tribbles" from the original series. The story, acting, etc. is great, but there's a glaring issue: the music (as was the case with all 24th Century-era TV Trek from about Season Two of The Next Generation on) is painfully bland, and at its worst, changes the tone of the episode in the worst way (see here and here to compare). This is precisely what's going on with Kai right now. Say what you will about Yamamoto, but his scores had personality, and his music editors knew what they were doing.

[worldmonsters]

Anyone ever watch the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? It's the episode crosses over with "The Trouble With Tribbles" from the original series. The story, acting, etc. is great, but there's a glaring issue: the music (as was the case with all 24th Century-era TV Trek from about Season Two of The Next Generation on) is painfully bland, and at its worst, changes the tone of the episode in the worst way (see here and here to compare). This is precisely what's going on with Kai right now. Say what you will about Yamamoto, but his scores had personality, and his music editors knew what they were doing.

I love that episode of DS9 :p Actually I sort of agree with you, but I also disagree. The music for later seasons of DS9 does start to become a bit bland in some episodes, but a lot of other episodes have awesome scores, for example "Call to Arms" or "Time's Orphan" or "Our Man Bashir". And the casino episode (forgot the title) had some great stuff :p "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.

On the Dragon Ball Kai side of things, yeah, some music could've been placed better, especially that bloody trumpet score thing when Goku defeated Yakon. What the hell was that. Apart from that nothing was... glaringly wrong in my eyes. I also liked the disco track especially because Goku and Vegeta are just playing with their opponents. That serious theme at the beginning of the episode tho... that was a good piece of music for a show. Was it out of place? Yeah, it sort of was. I'll give you that. But it wasn't offensively wrong. The music editors have a lot to learn (my money is on them being interns ), but at least we're getting a few tracks that are on a higher level than "barely passable" as some of the tracks were in the beginning.


As for the Tournament stuff... couldn't they have just... edited that together with this stuff? Cutting back and forth? That would at least prevent us from having one episode that has very little to add to the overall plot and isn't THAT interesting. Was it edited together in the manga, or a seperate side story like this?

[TheAldella]

As for the Tournament stuff... couldn't they have just... edited that together with this stuff? Cutting back and forth? That would at least prevent us from having one episode that has very little to add to the overall plot and isn't THAT interesting. Was it edited together in the manga, or a seperate side story like this?

I'd prefer a clean narrative rather than getting into it and then being disappointed with cut-aways.

[Cold Skin]

As for the Tournament stuff... couldn't they have just... edited that together with this stuff? Cutting back and forth? That would at least prevent us from having one episode that has very little to add to the overall plot and isn't THAT interesting. Was it edited together in the manga, or a seperate side story like this?

It's like that in the manga too.

Spoiler:

You first see Goku and friends going down to the next floor, and Babidi and Dabra have a conversation: it's decided that Dabra will be next.
Dabra appears and Gohan claims it's his turn to fight.

And then, for the following chapters, it cuts to what's left of the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's only when the tournament's completely over and Videl has explained the situation to the kids, prompting them to fly away towards the battlefield, that the plot cuts back to Gohan VS Dabra, directly in the middle of a battle that's been going on while we were watching the tournament's events.

So yeah, basically you see the fight about to start, then while the fight starts you see the whole end of the tournament plot instead, and then only when the tournament plot is completely over, you go back to finally see the battle of Gohan and Dabra, which beginning you'll never get to see since you were seeing the tournament instead. So it should be like that in Kai too.

[Black_Liger]

Anyone ever watch the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations"? It's the episode crosses over with "The Trouble With Tribbles" from the original series. The story, acting, etc. is great, but there's a glaring issue: the music (as was the case with all 24th Century-era TV Trek from about Season Two of The Next Generation on) is painfully bland, and at its worst, changes the tone of the episode in the worst way (see here and here to compare). This is precisely what's going on with Kai right now. Say what you will about Yamamoto, but his scores had personality, and his music editors knew what they were doing.

I totally disagree, Sumitomo score has personality, the kaiohshin theme and it's variation is proof of it, say what you want, but the episode where the team has that mid air talking following spopovitch and yamu, everything was spot on. Maybe the fanfare here is not to the liking of some people, but seriously, it really looks like you are just searching for flaws, I remember nobody even liked yamamoto score to begin with and now you do. XD

[TheGmGoken]

Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

[Gaffer Tape]

"The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.

Whoah, whoah. Any resemblance between Trials and Tribble-ations and seriousness is purely coincidental. If anything, the DS9 re-telling is even more unabashedly a comedy than the episode it's based on. Sisko gets Kirk's autograph. Dax fawns over everything like a Trekkie. Bashir considers having sex with someone he thinks is his great grandmother. O'Brien causes a power outage on the Enterprise. And there's an entire scene dedicated to calling attention to the fact that the Klingon makeup is totally different than it was in the '60s! This isn't just comedy. This is flat-out camp. The only reason there's an assassination attempt is to justify them being there at all, and the episode never takes that seriously. Only the characters do. I mean, the would-be assassin calls himself Barry Waddle. Barry. Waddle!

Sorry, I'm done now. I need to catch up on Kai.

[Valerius Dover]

I'm excited right now! The full version of Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go will be released on Wednesday!

This sounds good, but my mind is still tossing and turning over how this International Version will turn out. It could be either the best or worst thing ever.

[Black_Liger]

Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

Nope, Everything was like "The score is bland, Generic, is not db-esque enough, it has no punch, it's not fast paced like kikuchi" That's what I kept hearing (reading)

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Well I finally got in on this, not sure. That episode pacing can change so much from week to week based on the material covered it always Kai's wildcard. New Babidi sounds fine, goes a bit for the shrill Funi had (though not referentially, of course!). The silly music with Yakon... I don't know, it reminds me of how some modern children's animes (YGO GX comes to mind) will play a version of their title theme when a hero character is about to win. Given that Dragon Ball is not that sort of story and the viewer can already catch on that Yakon is about to get the glutton gutpunch, it works in that instance.

[FortuneSSJ]

You simply dont mess with the Saiyans!
R.I.P. Pui Pui and Yakon. I enjoyed the new soundtrack that played when Goku turned SSJ.

[TheGmGoken]

Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

Nope, Everything was like "The score is bland, Generic, is not db-esque enough, it has no punch, it's not fast paced like kikuchi" That's what I kept hearing (reading)

I'm reading them now. I see mostly praise.

[JEFFMAN219]

Just finished watching this episode and the pacing and the bgm music was great.

[GarrettCRW]

I love that episode of DS9 :p Actually I sort of agree with you, but I also disagree. The music for later seasons of DS9 does start to become a bit bland in some episodes, but a lot of other episodes have awesome scores, for example "Call to Arms" or "Time's Orphan" or "Our Man Bashir". And the casino episode (forgot the title) had some great stuff :p "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.

Ronald B. Moore would beg to differ: "My only real gripe was the music – I had hoped it would be more like the original score and I thought it hurt the show particularly during the barroom brawl by changing the tone of the scene." If you think that the DS9 version was serious, my point and Moore's is served, as the score is wildly serious, and in line with Rick Berman's fiat, never even comes close to ever overpowering the ambient sound of the environments (which are also far more subdued than they were on the original show, Filmation series, and even the original cast movies). It's even more galling because "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a whopping 13 minutes of music composed for it (two minutes of which were discarded; the remaining music was cribbed from other episodes), when "Trials and Tribble-ations" had a "full" episode score.

The guts of Kai's musical problems are different because, like pretty much all TV animation, the score is comprised of a library of tracked music. The music editor is just as, and often even more important than, the person creating the score. And unless the episodes are still condensed from what they should be, the music editor for Kai is completely unable to make the best of a subpar score.

[Black_Liger]

I love that episode of DS9 :p Actually I sort of agree with you, but I also disagree. The music for later seasons of DS9 does start to become a bit bland in some episodes, but a lot of other episodes have awesome scores, for example "Call to Arms" or "Time's Orphan" or "Our Man Bashir". And the casino episode (forgot the title) had some great stuff :p "The Trouble With Tribbles" was a comedy episode, howeverrrrr "Trails and Tribble-ations" was a bit more serious, with the assassination attempt on Kirk and the orb of Time etc. It was still comedy, but it had stakes. While that scene is comedic in TOS, it has a more serious tone when the DS9 crew are there, because at that moment they are on a reasonably important mission. Also, they shouldn't be interfering with the timeline at all (apart from their mission to stop that runaway Klingon), so anything that could disrupt it is dangerous. In other words, the music isn't THAT badly placed in that DS9 episode. However, it could've been better :p I'll grant you that.

Ronald B. Moore would beg to differ: "My only real gripe was the music – I had hoped it would be more like the original score and I thought it hurt the show particularly during the barroom brawl by changing the tone of the scene." If you think that the DS9 version was serious, my point and Moore's is served, as the score is wildly serious, and in line with Rick Berman's fiat, never even comes close to ever overpowering the ambient sound of the environments (which are also far more subdued than they were on the original show, Filmation series, and even the original cast movies). It's even more galling because "The Trouble With Tribbles" had a whopping 13 minutes of music composed for it (two minutes of which were discarded; the remaining music was cribbed from other episodes), when "Trials and Tribble-ations" had a "full" episode score.

The guts of Kai's musical problems are different because, like pretty much all TV animation, the score is comprised of a library of tracked music. The music editor is just as, and often even more important than, the person creating the score. And unless the episodes are still condensed from what they should be, the music editor for Kai is completely unable to make the best of a subpar score.

I keep reading, bad score, subpar score, but people really seem to ignore that some of the tracks are really memorable and well orchestrated.

[Blade]

Got around to watching this last night back to back with the three episodes prior - and I have to say, I think watching a batch of Buu Saga Kai episodes in one go seems to ease over a lot of the pacing issues.

It may be that watching each episode as they come on a weekly basis makes it a little harder to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to do pacing-wise, and that the product is perhaps a little ill-suited to an episode-per-week broadcast format.

[Cold Skin]

Actually looking back. People on the old Kai threads did like Yammatao(can't spell) music. They only didn't like where it was placed at SOME scenes compared to The original

Nope, Everything was like "The score is bland, Generic, is not db-esque enough, it has no punch, it's not fast paced like kikuchi" That's what I kept hearing (reading)

Yes, I remembered how outraged I felt back then when every single time the great Yamamoto score would be bashed by 9 people out of 10.
And look at that, now some people (not only on this forum, but also elsewhere) are saying "where is the great Yamamoto score?"

So despite complains that the score is "not Dragon Ball" and "out of place" and the same old "who hired the audio editor?!" etc, I feel the "score is bad" comments much more tempered this time, less agressive. If we take Yamamoto being bashed and now regreted by some, I think it's a good sign on what Sumitomo will leave as an impression when it's all over.

Maybe that's why, on the contrary of back then, and despite the fact that I love the score and never found it wrong so far, I don't feel outraged by the "the score is dull" comments, since they're not even close to the bash Yamamoto kept getting at every single episode back then.

[Valerius Dover]

So, a question. Have there been any instrumental versions of the the theme songs outside of the Next Episode Previews so far?