What if Goku had lost to Kid Buu

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Something doesn't add up here then, because how could Goku after inheriting that realm of power lose to Oob who has Pure boo' power?

Three possible explanations:

1. Something will happen in the 2015 movie that takes away the SSG powers.

2. The power just went away on its own after BOG.

3. BOG is in its own continuity. My favorite explanation. This would also explain the other errors.

I prefer possibility # 3 as well.

[sintzu]

Three possible explanations:

1. Something will happen in the 2015 movie that takes away the SSG powers.

2. The power just went away on its own after BOG.

3. BOG is in its own continuity. My favorite explanation. This would also explain the other errors.

4- Toriyama doesn't care about Uub and will give us a new ending in his last movie

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Three possible explanations:

1. Something will happen in the 2015 movie that takes away the SSG powers.

2. The power just went away on its own after BOG.

3. BOG is in its own continuity. My favorite explanation. This would also explain the other errors.

4- Toriyama doesn't care about Uub and will give us a new ending in his last movie

If it somehow comes to that, then we know for sure that Battle of Gods/DB Minus is a separate line of canon from the manga/anime series.

[Regarder]

5- Uub is retconned to have "Majin God" powers.

[Low Tone G]

Something doesn't add up here then, because how could Goku after inheriting that realm of power lose to Oob who has Pure boo' power?

Three possible explanations:

1. Something will happen in the 2015 movie that takes away the SSG powers.

2. The power just went away on its own after BOG.

3. BOG is in its own continuity. My favorite explanation. This would also explain the other errors.

As much as I like BOG, I can say You're right about.

I would like to see what happens with Goku in the new movie, and I would like to see that his powers are taken(I mean forcibly) by someone and Vegeta will be the one to react.

I wouldn't like to belive that BOG is in its own continuity, as Toriyama connected Beerus very strongly to the manga.(with his statement as Old Kai was sealed away by him).

Could there be some other ways to keep things consistent(somewhat):

1. Goku can hold back his God power, somehow learns how to turn off and turn on God power. So that's what happened with Uub in EOZ(lame explanation).
2. Or simply to change the ending of the manga, as Goku intentionally held back against Uub, and there's a way for a human like Uub be on par with Goku.(SSJ God also)
3. Or our heroes managed to decline all the seriuos threats to appear on Earth and other Godly power beings won't appear on Earth, so it's enough fo Uub to be on par with Goku's SS3 to keep Earth safe.

[Hitiro]

Yes, but it was stated in the manga that Pure Buu could possibly defeat EOZ Goku.

Where exactly is it stated EOZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo? I'm curious about this but after re-reading the chapter nothing is ever actually said I believe. Only conversation that could be construed as this is the one just before the tournament. Goku says there is a strong opponent there. And Vegeta follows up by saying "Strong enough for you? Impossible! Unless he's an Alien..."

Something doesn't add up here then, because how could Goku after inheriting that realm of power lose to Oob who has Pure boo' power?

After re-reading the chapter I don't see how Goku is actually "losing" to Oob. I don't see how we can't treat the fight as Goku being caught off-guard by Oob's sudden increase in power. Much like how Beerus who is leagues above Vegeta was taken by surprise by his attacks. Goku would have to be holding back against him anyway at the start because it's not like Oob is at Pure Boo level without rage. Goku would have most likely taken his head off if he was fighting anywhere close to serious at the start.

[RandomGuy96]

Where exactly is it stated EOZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo? I'm curious about this but after re-reading the chapter nothing is ever actually said I believe. Only conversation that could be construed as this is the one just before the tournament. Goku says there is a strong opponent there. And Vegeta follows up by saying "Strong enough for you? Impossible! Unless he's an Alien..."

Goku says that someone other than Mr. Buu and him could win the tournament, and he wants to be at 100% to fight this person (which is why he orders Mr. Buu to rig the matches). He's obviously talking about Uub.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2
Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight Oob
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…” [note that "stamina" pretty much means "power/strength" in this series]

After re-reading the chapter I don't see how Goku is actually "losing" to Oob. I don't see how we can't treat the fight as Goku being caught off-guard by Oob's sudden increase in power. Much like how Beerus who is leagues above Vegeta was taken by surprise by his attacks. Goku would have to be holding back against him anyway at the start because it's not like Oob is at Pure Boo level without rage. Goku would have most likely taken his head off if he was fighting anywhere close to serious at the start.

He specifically says he wants to fight Uub at 100%, which he wouldn't say if his 100% could one-shot Pure Buu.

[Hitiro]

Goku says that someone other than Mr. Buu and him could win the tournament, and he wants to be at 100% to fight this person (which is why he orders Mr. Buu to rig the matches). He's obviously talking about Uub.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”

Yes, Goku does say this. But you jump to the conclusion that just because Goku says this that Oob is stronger than him? What if Goku had to fight Vegeta first and got exhausted in his match against him. Then how would Goku put up a fight against Boo? As it says in this quote Goku still considered Mr. Boo could win. Does that mean that Mr. Boo is stronger than him too? Goku has no idea how the tournament will play out. Yes, Goku cheated to fight him first. But does that mean he was thinking of doing that when he said this quote? Maybe. Maybe not. But you can't just say that this or him wanting to be at 100% against Oob basically states that EOZ Goku is weaker than Oob.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2
Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight Oob
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…” [note that "stamina" pretty much means "power/strength" in this series]

He specifically says he wants to fight Uub at 100%, which he wouldn't say if his 100% could one-shot Pure Buu.

Who says Goku can't fight against Vegeta, who for all we know has also received God treatment at this point, wouldn't put up a good fight against Goku forcing him to be too exhausted to fight Oob? Again, nothing in the chapters state that EOZ Goku is weaker than Oob. Goku says Oob is strong. And he is compared to most people on Earth. He is only surpassed by possibly 3 people(If you include Gotenks and Vegeta with Gohan).

[RandomGuy96]

Yes, Goku does say this. But you jump to the conclusion that just because Goku says this that Oob is stronger than him? What if Goku had to fight Vegeta first and got exhausted in his match against him. Then how would Goku put up a fight against Boo? As it says in this quote Goku still considered Mr. Boo could win. Does that mean that Mr. Boo is stronger than him too? Goku has no idea how the tournament will play out. Yes, Goku cheated to fight him first. But does that mean he was thinking of doing that when he said this quote? Maybe. Maybe not. But you can't just say that this or him wanting to be at 100% against Oob basically states that EOZ Goku is weaker than Oob.

Who said anything about Uub being stronger? He's just close enough in power to stand a chance, which would not be the case if EOZ Goku had improved dramatically, as he was more or less even with Pure Buu in the Buu arc.

Who says Goku can't fight against Vegeta, who for all we know has also received God treatment at this point, wouldn't put up a good fight against Goku forcing him to be too exhausted to fight Oob? Again, nothing in the chapters state that EOZ Goku is weaker than Oob. Goku says Oob is strong. And he is compared to most people on Earth. He is only surpassed by possibly 3 people(If you include Gotenks and Vegeta with Gohan).

Goku says Uub could possibly defeat him, and that he wants to fight him while they're both at 100%. It's blindingly obvious that Goku has not gotten much stronger since the Buu arc. He certainly isn't strong enough to one-shot Uub.

[Hitiro]

Who said anything about Uub being stronger? He's just close enough in power to stand a chance, which would not be the case if EOZ Goku had improved dramatically, as he was more or less even with Pure Buu in the Buu arc.

By that standards then Goku should never have said Mr. Boo could win. Or Vegeta. But Goku included both of them. We know that both of these are not close enough in power to Goku if you want to say Oob is.

Goku says Uub could possibly defeat him, and that he wants to fight him while they're both at 100%. It's blindingly obvious that Goku has not gotten much stronger since the Buu arc. He certainly isn't strong enough to one-shot Uub.

But Goku doesn't say Oob could possibly defeat him. He just says he really wants to fight him while they're both at 100%. That is all. Yes. Goku says that someone other than them could win the tournament. But again, that was before he made the plan on fighting Oob first. For all we know Goku was thinking about what would happen if he ended up with Vegeta.

[RandomGuy96]

By that standards then Goku should never have said Mr. Boo could win. Or Vegeta. But Goku included both of them. We know that both of these are not close enough in power to Goku if you want to say Oob is.

No, he didn't. He only said Mr. Buu and Mr. Satan. The latter was obviously not included in the statement based on strength. The former probably was, which fits there not being much advancement since the Buu arc, as Mr. Buu wasn't much weaker than Goku back then and has the advantages of infinite stamina and regeneration. He didn't even consider Vegeta when thinking about possible winners, and why should he? Vegeta's just a SS2, one-shot fodder to anyone even remotely relevant to any form of Buu.

But Goku doesn't say Oob could possibly defeat him. He just says he really wants to fight him while they're both at 100%. That is all. Yes. Goku says that someone other than them could win the tournament. But again, that was before he made the plan on fighting Oob first. For all we know Goku was thinking about what would happen if he ended up with Vegeta.

Yes, he does say that. He doesn't even consider Vegeta to be a contender. There's no evidence he was expecting to be far below his full power when he faced Uub, or that his statement about Uub being a good fight and a potential loss was taken back after he had Mr. Buu rig the matches. You're doing that thing where you try to twist a (very) blatant and simple statement into the exact opposite of its intended meaning, and then fill in the gaps made by said twisting with made-up bullshit, like with the Kaioshin vs Piccolo "debate". Stop doing that.

[Low Tone G]

I agree with RandomGuy.

Goku must loose his God powers in the next movie or right after the fight with Beerus or in a later movie. Goku's words can make sense only if he does not have any God power in EOZ.

[Hitiro]

No, he didn't. He only said Mr. Buu and Mr. Satan. The latter was obviously not included in the statement based on strength. The former probably was, which fits there not being much advancement since the Buu arc, as Mr. Buu wasn't much weaker than Goku back then and has the advantages of infinite stamina and regeneration. He didn't even consider Vegeta when thinking about possible winners, and why should he? Vegeta's just a SS2, one-shot fodder to anyone even remotely relevant to any form of Buu.

For starters, Boo was picked apart by SSJ3 Goku. And that was before he was depowered when his evil half left him. Even Vegeta may be able to handle him now. Secondly, are you actually saying he didn't include Vegeta? Prior to the 10 year gap Goku and Vegeta were completely even in strength(except that Goku had an additional transformation). It would be highly likely that Goku would not fight Vegeta in SSJ3 as to make the fight fair. So Vegeta would be a contenter. And you should also realise that when Goku said "us" he was referring to whoever would meet Mr. Satan in the finals, right? That could be Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Goten, Pan. I never said that the person who could win the tournament would be based on strength I said that when Goku was saying this he didn't know who would win because it depends on how the tournament unfolds. So any one of them could have met Mr. Satan in the finals. Even Pan. In fact, if Goku had planned that far ahead he wouldn't have even bothered to tell Mr. Satan that someone other than them could win. Because he would have been planning to take Oob anyway so it wouldn't have effected who met Mr. Satan in the final.

Yes, he does say that. He doesn't even consider Vegeta to be a contender. There's no evidence he was expecting to be far below his full power when he faced Uub, or that his statement about Uub being a good fight and a potential loss was taken back after he had Mr. Buu rig the matches. You're doing that thing where you try to twist a (very) blatant and simple statement into the exact opposite of its intended meaning, and then fill in the gaps made by said twisting with made-up bullshit, like with the Kaioshin vs Piccolo "debate". Stop doing that.

I'm sorry, but no. Goku only says he'd like for both of each other to be at 100% Goku NEVER said Oob could beat him. Please show me the actual line in which Goku says this? There is no evidence Goku was expecting to be at full power when he faced Oob until he thought that he would cheat to fight him first. Goku says to Mr. Satan that if one of them reaches the finals then they would throw the match. He clearly had not thought about cheating at this point.

I'm not trying any twisting here. I am playing the devils advocate here. I agree what you say can be possible. But for you to come out and tell me that it is a stated EoZ Goku could lose to Pure Boo tier is completely untrue. While you can surmise from what is said in the pages that it is a possibility it is NEVER stated.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Here is an example of a character stating they would be defeated. In the EoZ chapters nothing like this ever happens. Unless there is a line in there from Goku saying "I'd probably lose to Oob if I'm not at my best." or anything like that then it is never actually stated and therefore open to interpretation.

[Doctor.]

How about we just take the simple route and say Goku refused to use God powers against Oob because he thought it would be unfair?

[Marco Polo]

How about we just take the simple route and say Goku refused to use God powers against Oob because he thought it would be unfair?

But the whole point of Goku being excited with Oob was because Oob is an opponent that he wouldn't have to hold back against. Goku was holding back against Goten and clearly he was looking forward to fighting Oob more than keeping training Goten.

[Doctor.]

How about we just take the simple route and say Goku refused to use God powers against Oob because he thought it would be unfair?

But the whole point of Goku being excited with Oob was because Oob is an opponent that he wouldn't have to hold back against. Goku was holding back against Goten and clearly he was looking forward to fighting Oob more than keeping training Goten.

He would still clearly be able to own Oob had he used his SSJ forms, so I don't see how that argument holds up.

[Tectorman]

Originally, back when there was no God Ki, Goku was looking forward to the challenge of Kid Buu's reincarnation. When it tutned out that Uub had the power but not the knowhow, he instead decided to train Uub first and look forward to a future fight.

Back then, Goku had SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3. We didn't see Goku immediately break out into SSJ2 or better against Uub. Presumably, Goku was doing the usual DBZ thing where you test your opponent with a low power form before ramping it up to a more intense form. So he was looking forward to an exciting fight, but he still started out as a base Saiyan.

If we can accept this, then why is replacing SSJ2 or 3 with God Ki so problematic? Yes, there's a vast difference between non-God Ki SSJ3 and God Ki, but if we're accepting that Goku was willing to start this fight suppressed and not ramp up to SSJ3, then saying that he 's figured out how to activate God Ki or leave it off and that he was going to go through the tournament without God Ki shouldn't be any different.

Edit: TLDR, I agree with the Doctor. Goku was just not using his God Ki. EoZ does not require its absence.

[RandomGuy96]

For starters, Boo was picked apart by SSJ3 Goku. And that was before he was depowered when his evil half left him. Even Vegeta may be able to handle him now.

Nope. You're talking about completely different Buus. This Buu is the one that was able to briefly hold his own against Pure Buu.

Secondly, are you actually saying he didn't include Vegeta? Prior to the 10 year gap Goku and Vegeta were completely even in strength(except that Goku had an additional transformation)

I'm not saying he didn't. The manga is saying that. He said that only he, Uub, and Mr. Buu (and Mr. Satan) had a chance of winning. Vegeta was not even in the running. Also, you just answered your own query. SS3 Goku one-shots SS2 Vegeta.

It would be highly likely that Goku would not fight Vegeta in SSJ3 as to make the fight fair.

Holding back isn't fun. If all Goku wanted to do was have fun by having a fight where he holds back, he could fight literally anyone in the world and just suppress his power as low as he wants. Which he doesn't do. This is why he didn't include Vegeta in his small list of people who had a chance of winning the tournament. Also:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

[we know CELL was bullshitting, but we never get any such indication for Goku]

So Vegeta would be a contenter

Not according to Goku.

And you should also realise that when Goku said "us" he was referring to whoever would meet Mr. Satan in the finals, right?

No, he was referring to himself and Mr. Satan.

In fact, if Goku had planned that far ahead he wouldn't have even bothered to tell Mr. Satan that someone other than them could win. Because he would have been planning to take Oob anyway so it wouldn't have effected who met Mr. Satan in the final.

He was surprised by Uub's lack of control. There's no evidence he was already planning on taking Uub away. There's just the blatant and simple statement that Uub could possibly win.

I'm sorry, but no. Goku only says he'd like for both of each other to be at 100% Goku NEVER said Oob could beat him. Please show me the actual line in which Goku says this?

Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”

There is no evidence Goku was expecting to be at full power when he faced Oob until he thought that he would cheat to fight him first

There's no evidence that he expected NOT to be at full power, no evidence that he wasn't already planning to rig the matches, and no evidence that his previous statement was suddenly rendered moot, as it stayed uncontradicted. There'd be no one he could even "lose" power with if he had god power, as the most powerful person there besides him and Uub was Mr. Buu. You're doing that thing again.

Goku says to Mr. Satan that if one of them reaches the finals then they would throw the match. He clearly had not thought about cheating at this point.

How is that proof he didn't intend to fight Uub?

I'm not trying any twisting here. I am playing the devils advocate here. I agree what you say can be possible. But for you to come out and tell me that it is a stated EoZ Goku could lose to Pure Boo tier is completely untrue

No, it's not. You can of course twist and bullshit your way out of a very direct and blatant statement of course (just like some people still try to argue that 100% Freeza wasn't at 100%), like you're doing right now when you say "he wasn't talking about his full power". But that wouldn't change anything. Going by your logic, no feat or statement in the manga ever means anything. For example:

Here is an example of a character stating they would be defeated

Nuh-uh, there's no evidence of that. He never says he intends to fight Buu at full power. He's clearly speaking of a hypothetical where he doesn't use SS3, and he's also lying (just like Piccolo lied about Kaioshin). What you're saying is completely untrue.

In the EoZ chapters nothing like this ever happens.

Goku: "...BUT SOMEONE BESIDES US AND BOO MIGHT WIN."

[GTx10]

I'm not sure why folks are so "I think Son should lose his God powers in order for the ending to make sense". If that would happen, BoG would be nothing but a waste. The biggest DBZ movie in 17 years, Son Goku becomes a God! Only to lose his God rank and powers because the Manga ending was written during a time when none of this existed.
'd be pissed if Goku lost his God powers. Couldn't it be possible that Oob is stronger than Kid Buu? Perhaps he has Super Buu strength. Perhaps Oob, while weaker than "God-Kun" is actually stronger than "Awesome" Super Saiyan Vegeta? Thus Goku is just happy to see a fighter with perhaps Super Vegeto level strength or more and just wants to duke it out.
As BoG and the ending make clear, Goku has far surpassed Vegeta to the point, that a whole new character was created to give Son purpose again. Son Goku will die one day, as will Vegeta. I'm sure Son-Kun would be happy to have a young warrior stronger than any non God character around protecting the Earth. But if Goku lost to Kid Buu than Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan would've saved the day. If they lost than Beers-Sama would've killed Kid Buu for simply being a annoying punk. So Kid Buu would've ended up dead sooner or later.

Plus this is Toriyama we are talking about here, for all we know he'll reveal something as crazy as Nameks being fully grown and evolved Saibaman who've at one point mated with Saiyans! Thus revealing that Son Goku, Piccolo (normal and Daimao), and Kami are related! I

[MasterVampire]

If Goku lost to Kid Buu they just have dead Goku fight him again?

Or just get dead Gohan to fight Kid Buu who would be able to beat him easily.

Done.