Dragonball & YouTube

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:14 pm

This thread is full of armchair socialism.

I'll admit I've pirated things I'll probably never buy and I know I'm wrong for doing it.

Also, regarding YouTube, the quality of anything uploaded there is so crappy it's not even worth watching. Sure, videos of funny things you have captured, short clips are good, but FULL EPZ of series? Pointless.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:50 pm

El_Diablo wrote:This thread is full of armchair socialism.

I'll admit I've pirated things I'll probably never buy and I know I'm wrong for doing it.

Also, regarding YouTube, the quality of anything uploaded there is so crappy it's not even worth watching. Sure, videos of funny things you have captured, short clips are good, but FULL EPZ of series? Pointless.

Just like your post. Thanks for contributing. Thank you for such an insightful comment. I can see where you considered the previously brought up points. :rolleyes:

A few people have brought up good points, others do that. Those people aren't helping keep this thread open. Some of us are trying to discuss the issue - others are posting things like this.

Noone's talking about socialism. And I personally have brought up points about the issue of quality in regards to the subject. You either failed to read it, or simply ignored previous discussion points. Either way you're dragging the discussion down to levels that would have it locked. I am trying to keep this discussion's head above water, posts like this are drowning it.

If you're going to reply to this thread, please actually have something to add. Is that too much to ask?

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:50 pm

And here's me thinking this was a thread to post our views on Dragon Ball episodes hosted on YouTube.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:02 pm

Thanks for the lesson on supply and demand, Desire. I am familar with the concept.

Saying that it is an imperfect world isn't inserting moral aspects into a functionality discussion. That is a fact, Humans are flawed, the world is imperfect. It will never be perfect. I DID say that such a fact should not stop us from making attempts to better ourselves and others. Go back and re-read my previous post. Trying compare me to someone trying to talk down Dr. King or President Lincoln was a sad, inflamatory, and weak attempt at a counter argument.

That's why I do not like using that stupid quote feature. It is too easy to take SOME of what another person said and take it out context and try to appear to make some insightful response to what they said. Guess what? If I want to re-read what the previous person said in a debate, I'll scroll back up and have another look at it. I'll thank you to include all my statements together for consideration when formulating your response rather than skimming and picking out a couple singular sentences to try and scotch tape together and counter argument with.

You come at me with something about someone taking a shit in the street and calling it art that it is technicaly art? What does that have to do with anything? It isn't "Technically Art", it's TECHNICALLY a pile of shit sitting on concrete. You can call it whatever you want. Reminds me of something Abraham Lincoln said (Since you seem to be fond of mentioning him in responses).

President Lincoln asked a friend, "If you call a tail a leg, then how many legs does a dog have?" The friend replied "Five sir." Lincoln shook his head and said "No, four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it so."

Calling a pile of shit art doesn't make it that. You tell me I act like I place my opinion above others in your response. Yet you follow that by jumping El_Diablo's case and telling him that his post is worthless and meaningless to this topic and that you are the only one holding this discussion above water. El Diablo's post was his Opinion. You just did the very thing you tried to accuse me of, when the only evidence of it happening in this topic comes from you. Then you have the gall to tell him his post is bringing the topic down when you try to use calling excrement "Art" as an argument?

I think I am very close to done here. There is nothing beneficial to be debated further in this topic.

chibi_goten · Post by **chibi_goten** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:23 pm

I like you tube, it's a place for fun videos. I don't agree with hosting full episodes. But I like peoples edits and made up versions and the music videos.

You have to admit they are funny, and some of the music videos are good.

(Edit: didn't know you could find whole episodes)

It makes me laugh, and I find it harmless.

Check this link out, thanks Bura!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pCgSO9_rxKM

MajinMetroid · Post by **MajinMetroid** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:52 pm

chibi_goten, you can find whole episodes of Dragonball Z on YouTube, that's what this whole discussion is about.

(PS, "End of Vegeta" - High-larious!)

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:56 pm

chibi_goten wrote:I like you tube, it's a place for fun videos.

You have to admit they are funny, and it's not like they are hosting full episodes.

It makes me laugh, and I find it harmless.

Check this link out, thanks Bura!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pCgSO9_rxKM

That is what this discussion is talking about how whole episodes and movies aren't good things. I mean if you were to host dbz trailers or AMVs,there is nothing wrong with that.. (I'm smooth like that)

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:42 pm

Akira, I use the quote feature to show that I am responding to a specific post. If I don't, it forces people to reread the whole of the thread to find what I'm referring to. I'm sorry you think I'm quoted you out of context - I didn't - I quoted exactly what I responded to. I did nothing to make it seem like you were saying something you weren't. But you have done such against me.

You last response was nearly livid. You apparently taken some offense. Remember, noone here is trying to offend anyone else (we both talked about that in previous posts, but I won't quote it here because you apparently don't like that). El Diablo's post was his opinion - yes, I know. You still don't seem to understand my position on the 'value' of an opinion. Let's recap: it's the same as your's. I said as much a few posts ago. Again, I won't quote that here, because some people don't like that.

Again, this would be the third or fourth time, I know that the American Civil Rights Movement and the American Civil War are far more important that online filesharing. Your outrage at my using it seems makes it appear as if you've been "skimming and picking out a couple singular sentences to try and scotch tape together and counter argument with".

You said that a producer should be 'compensated' I described how and why that compensation is directly proportional to how much the consumer wants it. I've gone through this in detail, and used more examples than the 'take a shit on the street' one - but if you're just going to take parts of my post out of context to appear to reply insightfully - then go right ahead.

And your Lincoln quote is not analogous to the 'street shit' thing anyway. Art is very hard to define. It's hard to say if art is art regardless of public response, or if art is only art if someone believes it to be art. A leg is a leg is a leg is a leg. You continue to vear off away from the topic by replying to my posts out-of-context.

El_diablo's post is not pushing the argument further. At best it is stagnating the discussion, and at worst it will drive the discussion back to where we started ("I think this, but I give no reasoning at all"). This is exactly like someone posting "Broli could beat Freeza because Broly's power is MAXIMUM" in a discussion about powerlevels. True, that opinion is as valid as any other, but it's not pushing the discussion forward in a meaningful way. If everyone just posted their opinions on whatever the thread's topic was, there would be no discussion and the thread would benefit noone. The point to this forum is for topical discussion.

I have to quote this directly, I just can't resist

you have the gall to tell him his post is bringing the topic down when you try to use calling excrement "Art" as an argument?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Or, rather, I'm saying "my post that discusses the topic in general, as well as replies to some specific posts, and using logical reason for all of it does move the discussion forward, while simply posting an opinion without substance, or logical argument, or any connection to the previous discussion points does not move the discussion further.

Oh, what the hell - one more:

I DID say that such a fact should not stop us from making attempts to better ourselves and others.

Well, yes - but not in the way I am talking about. You said:

Bottom line is we live in an imperfect world. The notion that there will ever be true equality is nothing but an idealistic dream. We can strive to better ourselves, our perceptions of others, and to have a change of heart when we need to, and to convince others to change when they are wrong, but we can never make everything perfect and fair and even. Human nature will always be the variable we can never escape.... I'm sorry to say Desire, that I have to agree with VegettoEX. Yours is an idealistic view of the world. It sure would be nice if it worked the way you say, and everyone just made stuff and shared it for free. Unfortunately, that isn't the way it works, and that's not the way most people out there are. Also unfortunate is that if you stand up to a law that you think is unfair, then you better have a few supporters in high places that can get it changed. You better have the facts to back it up, and you better not try to take matters into your own hands, or you could end up in a world of trouble.

You message here is that it should be changed, as long as you don't have to do anything about it. I am saying it should be change AND we should do something about it. You also used a general threat to try and deter such action. I would say you are actively trying to repel anyone who want to enact change. Of course, I could be wrong - you could simply be grossly incompetent at encouraging people.

I reiterate: I have made sound arguments for filesharing both from a moral standpoint and a practical standpoint. Anyone is welome to respond to them.

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:28 am

MajinMetroid wrote:chibi_goten, you can find whole episodes of Dragonball Z on YouTube, that's what this whole discussion is about.

(PS, "End of Vegeta" - High-larious!)

You can find full episodes of anything on Youtube, not just anime.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:57 am

DesireCampbell wrote:Um, I hate to liken sharing ISOs to civil rights again, but, this paragraph could easily have been something said (word for word) to Martin Luther King Jr, in an attempt to get him to stop trying so hard. This paragraph could have been something said to Abraham Lincoln, in attempt to get him to stop trying to abolish slavery. It makes me sound like a jerk to compare such incredibly important things to something so petty.

Well man, I was under the impression we were having a friendly discussion, but you begin to make comparisons that aren't even Apples and Oranges comparisons. Discussing human civil rights and likening me to someone trying disuade King or Lincoln was quite a claim and a slam against me. Perhaps subtle, but it was still a slam. This isn't an issue of me taking offense to something that I took the wrong way either, so don't cop out on me with that answer again. File sharing and humans being treated unfairly are a far cry and a far stretch from each other.

Just because I would argue a non-combative stance on file sharing doesn't mean I would have the same mode of thinking on an entirely different, life changing issue. You made that claim, then said I appeared "Livid" in my response. You think? You liken me to a slave driver and supporter in your post because I take an anti-file sharing stance and wonder why I get somewhat upset?

You (You specifically, not an in general you here) cannot make such far reaching claims and expect someone not to get upset when you slander them.

On the matter of EL Diablo, I allow for posts like that because there are kids that are still going through school out there that post on this board. I can't expect them to be at the same level as me or some of the other adult posters here. I don't know how old he is, but he can say whatever he wants as long as it follows the forum guidelines. If there is a post that doesn't add anything, I just ignore it. I am not a moderator, and niether are you (to my knowledge). This is Vegetto EX's realm and it is his to determine the validity of any one post. He could decide I am invalid, or you, and cut us off from the board entirely. I hope he doesn't, but that's the way it is and we'd be forced to accept it. You might think that unfair, maybe I would, but that is the way it is. Kinda like my argument, you may not like it, but you can't fight everything.

Of course Human rights should always be upheld, and we should fight anything that tries to oppose that. This topic was never about that, and I have no idea why we have to spend space "Not furthering the discussion" by going into a side bar with that. Internet file sharing is not something I think you will see people standing up in the streets protesting that they aren't getting. You even said you felt like a jerk for comparing something so important to something so petty, so why did you do it?

It is called a "Diversion tactic". By bringing up a larger issue and finding some way to link it to your opposition, you can bring a negative slant to thier viewpoint where there previously was none. You may say you didn't mean me specifically, or that " Apparantly" -I- took it wrong. Sure, those are good escape tricks to put the focus back on me. The fact is you said those words I quoted at the beginning of this post in direct response to something I said in a previous post.

I don't care about the file sharing argument anymore. You can declare yourself the winner of that. I declare you the winner of that, so no further discussion is needed on that front. What I want is a retraction of your statements attempting to make me out to be a slavery supporter. That was poor choice to try and slam me in such a way.

Here's a hint:
Next time try to be more subtle by nailing me on something there actually is evidence of me saying in other topics. You'll have a better chance of making it stick that way.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:56 pm

Akira wrote:Well man, I was under the impression we were having a friendly discussion, but you begin to make comparisons that aren't even Apples and Oranges comparisons. Discussing human civil rights and likening me to someone trying dissuade King or Lincoln was quite a claim and a slam against me. Perhaps subtle, but it was still a slam. This isn't an issue of me taking offense to something that I took the wrong way either, so don't cop out on me with that answer again. File sharing and humans being treated unfairly are a far cry and a far stretch from each other.

I know they're very different. I've said as much every single time I've brought it up. I'm not trying to subtly slander you. I bring up these incredibly important matters and how people challenged what many people, and the law, thought about something. They still worked hard and the world is better for it. It is a direct response to the idea that 'the world is imperfect' and the implication that it won't change, or is too hard to change, or too risky. Again, I think you're giving me too much credit when you say I'm subtly slandering you. I'm not that good, buddy.

Akira wrote:Just because I would argue a non-combative stance on file sharing doesn't mean I would have the same mode of thinking on an entirely different, life changing issue. You made that claim, then said I appeared "Livid" in my response. You think? You liken me to a slave driver and supporter in your post because I take an anti-file sharing stance and wonder why I get somewhat upset?

I know, I know. I never said, and didn't mean to imply, that you wouldn't stand up for other, obviously, more important things. I'm just using those as examples of things people challenged and succeeded against.
Again, I never meant to call you a slave-driver.

Akira wrote:You (You specifically, not an in general you here) cannot make such far reaching claims and expect someone not to get upset when you slander them.

Again - I made no "claims". At most I tried to interpret your "anti-combative" stance. I'm pretty sure I correctly described the effect your post had on others, but I was split on whether it was intentional or not. I'm sure if you reread it you'll see I meant to direct insult.

Akira wrote:On the matter of EL Diablo, I allow for posts like that because there are kids that are still going through school out there that post on this board. I can't expect them to be at the same level as me or some of the other adult posters here.

"Adult"? Really, man, you give me far too much credit. I can type properly, that doesn't mean I should be counted as an "adult" in this conversation. I'm still in school, I'm un-worldly, cartoons are a central piece in mt life. I'm not sure "adult" is the right word.

Akira wrote:I don't know how old he is, but he can say whatever he wants as long as it follows the forum guidelines. If there is a post that doesn't add anything, I just ignore it. I am not a moderator, and neither are you (to my knowledge). This is Vegetto EX's realm and it is his to determine the validity of any one post. He could decide I am invalid, or you, and cut us off from the board entirely. I hope he doesn't, but that's the way it is and we'd be forced to accept it. You might think that unfair, maybe I would, but that is the way it is. Kinda like my argument, you may not like it, but you can't fight everything.

Good point. There are somethings we cannot change. We cannot challenge Mike here. He is king; there is no discussion against him. This is not a democracy. On the other hand, my country (and your's I presume) is a democracy.

Akira wrote:Of course Human rights should always be upheld, and we should fight anything that tries to oppose that. This topic was never about that, and I have no idea why we have to spend space "Not furthering the discussion" by going into a side bar with that.

Internet file sharing is not something I think you will see people standing up in the streets protesting that they aren't getting. You even said you felt like a jerk for comparing something so important to something so petty, so why did you do it?

I mentioned it briefly in response to the idea that people cannot enact change in widespread legal and moral values. I brought up these as examples because no one would argue them. Slavery is bad. Racism is bad. They were legal and widely accepted for a long time. Then they were challenged. Now they're illegal and unthinkably offensive.
I want to liken that idea of "legal and widely believed doesn't make it right" (or, more analogously, "Calling a tail a leg does not make it so") to broader concepts.

Akira wrote:It is called a "Diversion tactic". By bringing up a larger issue and finding some way to link it to your opposition, you can bring a negative slant to their viewpoint where there previously was none. You may say you didn't mean me specifically, or that " Apparently" -I- took it wrong. Sure, those are good escape tricks to put the focus back on me. The fact is you said those words I quoted at the beginning of this post in direct response to something I said in a previous post.

True, I did write that. Though you seemed quite upset when I quoted you in my previous posts. You said I took you out of context.

Looking back at my post, I see that I continued on from that and elaborated on my position and reason for using such examples. Your repeated questions in this post about my reason for using the examples seems like a 'diversion tactic', implying that I think civil rights and slavery as paltry ideas as filesharing.

Desire Campbell wrote:It makes me sound like a jerk to compare such incredibly important things to something so petty - but the underlying message is the same: change is not something that happens overnight. It takes years of hard work. Lives may have to be lost. But eventually, people will see the light. The only thing that will keep this world 'imperfect' is people like you and me not trying to change it. It's only over if we surrender.

And I will not surrender.

Akira wrote:I don't care about the file sharing argument anymore. You can declare yourself the winner of that. I declare you the winner of that, so no further discussion is needed on that front. What I want is a retraction of your statements attempting to make me out to be a slavery supporter. That was poor choice to try and slam me in such a way.

I never said you were pro-slavery. I am saying (now) that you are a hypocritical debater, though. You accuse me of taken your posts out of context - I didn't - and then you take my posts out of context. You accuse me of using diversion tactics - I didn't - and then you used diversion tactics (this whole post).

I wanted this topic to proceed with intelligent debate. You brought up several good points. I brought up several good replies. You went off on a tangent about me singling you out. Using underhanded tactics, and calling you a racist.

----------------------------
I am now abstaining from anything but topical posts in this thread. Any further personal attacks will be dealt with through PM. I hope someone can continue the discussion.

Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:20 pm

I just want to put in my two cents.

I believe that putting those episodes on YouTube are beneficial to some and harmful to others (namely me). I understand AMVs, re-dubs, movie trailers, any miscellanous things. But c'mon people. The series is on DVD (most of it anyways). Pro of that is that you can actually see the video

So yeah. I'm not debating or anything, I don't want to start any new arguments. I just wanted to say that.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:40 pm

When you state such things in direct comparison to what -I- said, what were you implying? You can deny it, but it sure appears that you were comparing me to the likes of a slavery supporter. Even if indirectly, the implication was there. You can feign ignorance in the whole matter, and that's fine. That's what I expected you would do rather than take accountabilty for your statements. (As I am doing below)

1. I already mentioned previously that I understand that I come across overbearing and harsh at times. Moreso than I may even realize. Almost always, I try to make things right before I bow out though. You have to give me that.

2. Yes, I took you out of context, after you -mildly- did the same to me. That was not the correct course of action for me to take. I knew I was doing it, and I admit to it. That's better than not knowing, or just flat denying it.

Well, that's all I have to say. I'm done with this topic. If you decide to do the same rather than throw another "I'm just a dumb kid" cop-out, I admit I'd be surprised. Off to discuss Dragonball topics, these reality debates are about as fun as watching reality television anyway. (I hate reality television, for reference.) *bow*

Mr. Robot · Post by **Mr. Robot** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:31 pm

Just a couple o' cents:

Is what is legal necessary just? Laws are formed by the majority, or in the case of republics, by representatives of the majority. Therefore to directly equate laws with justice is to implicitly define justice as the will of the majority. As we can see with the holocaust, however, this certainly isn't always the case.

That having been said, when we agree to live in and enjoy the benefits of society, we agree to its rules--its laws. To post eps on YouTube is illegal. What we should evaluate is not its justice, but its legality. As those who post episodes agree to, by virtue of living in America, our rules and regulations, they must be prepared to face its punishments (as did Socrates in Athens when he accepted his death sentence, handed down by a biased and unjust court.)

Those who post episodes on YouTube must expect to face punishment, not because posting is inherently immoral or unjust, but because it is a violation of the contract they agree to by being citizens.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:42 pm

Mr. Robot wrote:Just a couple o' cents:

Is what is legal necessary just? Laws are formed by the majority, or in the case of republics, by representatives of the majority. Therefore to directly equate laws with justice is to implicitly define justice as the will of the majority. As we can see with the holocaust, however, this certainly isn't always the case.

That having been said, when we agree to live in and enjoy the benefits of society, we agree to its rules--its laws. To post eps on YouTube is illegal. What we should evaluate is not its justice, but its legality. As those who post episodes agree to, by virtue of living in America, our rules and regulations, they must be prepared to face its punishments (as did Socrates in Athens when he accepted his death sentence, handed down by a biased and unjust court.)

Those who post episodes on YouTube must expect to face punishment, not because posting is inherently immoral or unjust, but because it is a violation of the contract they agree to by being citizens.

What exactly are the laws against posting copyrighted videos on YouTube? I know it's against the YouTube TOS, but what exactly are the laws involved? Are the uploaders subject to US law because that's where (I assume) YouTube is based? Or would YouTube be forced to take full responsibility for foreign uploader's conduct?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:55 pm

desirecampbell wrote:What exactly are the laws against posting copyrighted videos on YouTube? I know it's against the YouTube TOS, but what exactly are the laws involved? Are the uploaders subject to US law because that's where (I assume) YouTube is based? Or would YouTube be forced to take full responsibility for foreign uploader's conduct?

The majority of it comes with the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act). The gist of it is that any copyright circumvention is illegal, irrelevant of what you do with it after that. Things like ripping DVDs (which breaks the CSS encoding) and de-enabling Macrovision (VHS/DVD/etc.) to get captures of things to post is by itself breaking the DMCA.

http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA

Furthermore, please read up on the Berne Convention:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_convention

Articles 3, 6bis, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11bis, 12, and 14bis are most relevant.

Also:

YouTube Terms of Service wrote:You agree that: (i) the YouTube Website shall be deemed solely based in California; and (ii) the YouTube Website shall be deemed a passive website that does not give rise to personal jurisdiction over YouTube, either specific or general, in jurisdictions other than California. These Terms of Service shall be governed by the internal substantive laws of the State of California, without respect to its conflict of laws principles. Any claim or dispute between you and YouTube that arises in whole or in part from the YouTube Website shall be decided exclusively by a court of competent jurisdiction located in San Mateo County, California.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:08 am

I thought this would be interesting to mention, recently, Toei Animation CO., LTD is removing any Dragon Ball-related video that can get hands on. For example, Dragon Ball episodes, by this user got removed. Also, unfortunately, the Dragon Ball Z parody videos (aka farmer w/ shot gun videos) have been removed as well (assuming it was also the work of Toei).

SS4GOGETA#1 · Post by **SS4GOGETA#1** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:33 pm

My personal opinion is, if you have enough money to buy a computer to download Dragonball, then you have enough money to pay for the DVD's. With all the work and money that has been put into the production of this series in english, someone has to pay the bills.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:30 am

Having Dragonball on Youtube is pretty cool. I've been known to watch clips of many things there. But I probably would never sit through an entire episode of anything, the quality just isn't that good.

The issue that I'm seeing most people addressing is the legality of the having the content there. The bottom line is that most of everything that's there is the unlawfully. And whether or not we believe these to be "fair" has no bearing. The law is there and it's there for a reason. If you don't like it and want it changed, then thank god that we live in societies where this is possible and we should get up and go have it changed. There are people who live in areas where the laws are definitely unfair and there's not a damn thing they can do about it.

If you do something that you know that is illegal and get caught and have to be punished, you did it to yourself. The only folks I ever hear complain about not liking laws are criminals.

This kind of reminds me of VegettoEX and this forum. We do something and break the rules and are caught, that lightning comes outta the sky and we're told to straighten up our act. And if we don't like it or think it's unfair, we're just a couple of keystokes from another forum. Albeit, a lesser one.

I know that for the most part this has pretty much been stated but I just wanted to say my peace.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:46 am

If you don't like it and want it changed, then thank god that we live in societies where this is possible and we should get up and go have it changed.

Most dont have deep enough pockets to make "donations" to congressmen. Of course I'm sure they keep extending copyrights because they have our best interest at heart.

Kanzenshuu

Dragonball & YouTube

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