Could Tenshinhan's Kikoho or Dodonpa be a planet buster?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How can it blow up a planet?

...huh? How can any attack blow up a planet really?

It causes a huge explosion in the core of the planet. A kiai attack doesn't make explosion, nor can it reach the core (as far as we know).

It disintegrated the ground. Why could it not disintegrate part of, or the whole of, a core and make in destabilized like on planet Namek?

It's not even big enough to destroy the core. It can't even get there, from what we know.

[RandomGuy96]

A planet isn't a person. If a ki blast can't destroy a planet, but can kill someone like Freeza or Cell, then it means that the ki blast has the destructive power to kill them, but not to destroy a planet.

No, it means it also has the power to destroy the planet, because Freeza and Cell can survive planet-busting attacks no problem, yet still be hurt by punches. It just doesn't because the person firing it somehow magically made it affect only a tiny area with no collateral damage, but that doesn't mean it lacks the power. You're saying that literally any character, even the likes of Roshi, could've one-shotted any of the villains if they just used 0.00001% of their power. Which is stupid. For example, Daizenshuu 4 plainly says that Goku's Kamehameha at the 23rd Budokai had enough destructive power to shatter the moon, yet it doesn't do jack against Piccolo.

I just remembered Ultimate Gohan's ki blast that went through the Earth (but missed its core). So, it seems that small ki blasts with high concentrated power can also blow up planets, but they have to be at least Pure Boo level from what we know.

Absolutely nothing says they need to be Pure Buu level. There's no reason that a tiny ki blast fired from Zarbon wouldn't do the same, as he has the power to destroy a planet judging by the fact that he's stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta who could destroy the planet with one of his beam attacks.

[Hitiro]

It's not even big enough to destroy the core. It can't even get there, from what we know.

Well. We can't say that it can't get there because Tenshinhan could have been preventing that with Ki control for all we know. And it only needs to destroy a bit of the core to cause destabilization I believe. While the Daizenshuu considers it a Kiai technique it is fundamentally different from a Kiai though. Because Kiai's don't vaporise things that get in their way. It honestly doesn't matter about size of Ki blasts though. If you throw a blast that has enough Ki to wipe out the solar system and it blows up it will take the solar system with it unless you concentrate the blast into one area.

[FoolsGil]

How can it blow up a planet?

...huh? How can any attack blow up a planet really?

It causes a huge explosion in the core of the planet. A kiai attack doesn't make explosion, nor can it reach the core (as far as we know).

It's a kiai technique, remember?

[TheUltimateVegito]

If it can hold out Second Form Cell, who is infinitely stronger than First Form Frieza who can destroy planets with a finger, then I'm pretty sure it can planet burst with ease.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, it means it also has the power to destroy the planet, because Freeza and Cell can survive planet-busting attacks no problem, yet still be hurt by punches. It just doesn't because the person firing it somehow magically made it affect only a tiny area with no collateral damage, but that doesn't mean it lacks the power. You're saying that literally any character, even the likes of Roshi, could've one-shotted any of the villains if they just used 0.00001% of their power. Which is stupid. For example, Daizenshuu 4 plainly says that Goku's Kamehameha at the 23rd Budokai had enough destructive power to shatter the moon, yet it doesn't do jack against Piccolo.

Again, planets aren't fighters. For a planet to explode, the explosion needs size along with power. For a fighter to get killed, the explosion doesn't have to be huge.

Absolutely nothing says they need to be Pure Buu level. There's no reason that a tiny ki blast fired from Zarbon wouldn't do the same, as he has the power to destroy a planet judging by the fact that he's stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta who could destroy the planet with one of his beam attacks.

Have we seen small ki blasts creating huge explosions that would at least destroy the core of a planet?

[RandomGuy96]

Again, planets aren't fighters. For a planet to explode, the explosion needs size along with power. For a fighter to get killed, the explosion doesn't have to be huge.

No, if there's enough power in your attack to destroy a planet, it will be destroyed. Unless, of course, you use some pseudo-magical ability to keep it all condensed in tiny area. That doesn't mean your attack suddenly doesn't have enough power to destroy the planet, just that you're choosing not to destroy it. It's like when Daizenshuu 4 said both the Big Bang Attack and the Super Kamehameha could have destroyed the planet, yet despite being fired right at in a big beam/sphere, nothing happened to it.

That whole "destroy the core" thing is complete BS. It's not possible in reality, and it was only used one as a plot device so Freeza and Goku could fight on a timer.

Have we seen small ki blasts creating huge explosions that would at least destroy the core of a planet?

The mere fact that these ki blasts hurt anyone past Vegeta is enough proof that they have the power to destroy planets. Otherwise, these guys who casually smack around people capable of completely erasing planets wouldn't be hurt. Going by your logic, Roshi could have actually one-shotted every single villain at only 0.01% of his power, and just chose not to.

[Regarder]

There are two possibilities that come to mind:

1: Every attack which can destroy a planet, including physical ones (conservation of energy) is suppressed in a way that confines the effects to a particular area.

2: There's not a one to one relationship between the amount of stuff you can blow up and how much damage you can do in the first place, which also means that the AoE of ki and its power aren't linear. Every attack past Freeza doesn't need suppressing.

2 explains why people only panic about specific attacks being able to destroy the Earth and not every punch and odd ki blast, but an aspect of 1 should also be true given that the attacks which are noted as potential planet busters are noted to be able to be focused and are noted to be a very serious event when they happen.

People in DB seem to be very flustered by the idea of sending attacks through the Earth. Stuff can be blown up on the surface all the time, however, and the same reaction of the characters never occurs. DB would be a very different series if every attack could potentially destroy the planet.

That whole "destroy the core" thing is complete BS. It's not possible in reality

But it can easily be possible within the established in-universe physics of Dragonball.

[RandomGuy96]

1: Every attack which can destroy a planet, including physical ones (conservation of energy) is suppressed in a way that confines the effects to a particular area.

This is heavily implied in the manga and explicitly stated in the guidebooks. So, case closed.

People in DB seem to be very flustered by the idea of sending attacks through the Earth. Stuff can be blown up on the surface all the time, however, and the same reaction of the characters never occurs. DB would be a very different series if every attack could potentially destroy the planet.

No, it'd be the same series, because every attack can. I don't know why people have such a problem with the official explanation here. Every attack has the power to destroy a planet, but they somehow use their ki control to make sure it only affects a small area. That's why planet busting characters can still be hurt by attacks that clearly don't shatter the planet (or, later, the Sun), and why no one was ever like "hey, let's just grab Cell and have Roshi one-shot him with that moon-busting Kamehameha". And why Vegeta didn't say "well, since I'm on the indestructible world of the Kaioshin, I may as well use my true power to erase Buu with one blast, the same one that could destroy a planet".

But it can easily be possible within the established in-universe physics of Dragonball.

The problem is trying to take that one instance of destruction on that one planet and apply it to everything else, so that apparently no attack can really bust a planet.

[dbzfan7]

Probably not unless it's busting the core or something. Maybe shatter it...but to blow it all to smithereens you'd need a big blast radius.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, if there's enough power in your attack to destroy a planet, it will be destroyed. Unless, of course, you use some pseudo-magical ability to keep it all condensed in tiny area. That doesn't mean your attack suddenly doesn't have enough power to destroy the planet, just that you're choosing not to destroy it. It's like when Daizenshuu 4 said both the Big Bang Attack and the Super Kamehameha could have destroyed the planet, yet despite being fired right at in a big beam/sphere, nothing happened to it.

Show me ki blasts that create a big enough explosion to make a planet explode.

That whole "destroy the core" thing is complete BS. It's not possible in reality, and it was only used one as a plot device so Freeza and Goku could fight on a timer.

I don't know how it works in reality, but we are talking about DB now. We've seen Ultimate Gohan firing a ki blast, and then that ki blast went right through the Earth, but it appears that it missed the core of the planet.

The mere fact that these ki blasts hurt anyone past Vegeta is enough proof that they have the power to destroy planets. Otherwise, these guys who casually smack around people capable of completely erasing planets wouldn't be hurt. Going by your logic, Roshi could have actually one-shotted every single villain at only 0.01% of his power, and just chose not to.

By your logic, Freeza's finger beam should have made Vegeta's body go boom.

[RandomGuy96]

Show me ki blasts that create a big enough explosion to make a planet explode.

Explosion size doesn't mean anything due to the whole power compression thing. Going by explosion size, Roshi > Vegeta. Have you been paying attention? It's repeatedly stated, and then explained further in the guidebooks, that all these attacks have the raw power to destroy planets, but the fighters compress that power to only harm something in a small range (see the Daizenshuu descriptions for the Super Kamehameha and Big Bang Attack).

I don't know how it works in reality, but we are talking about DB now. We've seen Ultimate Gohan firing a ki blast, and then that ki blast went right through the Earth, but it appears that it missed the core of the planet.

As we're never told that's how it works in DB. That's just how it worked with one specific attack on one specific planet in another galaxy. Pure Buu's planet buster clearly didn't work like that, given its quickness and how massively overkill the explosion was (calculating the explosion based on size and how it scattered the debris puts it at red dwarf star level IIRC).

By your logic, Freeza's finger beam should have made Vegeta's body go boom.

No, because he compressed all the ki into a tiny area to increase its effectiveness. By your logic, Roshi secretly could have one shotted Vegeta and Mecha Freeza when they came to Earth, and just chose not to, and everyone in the series always fights using tiny sub-1% fractions of their power for no reason. Which the official explanation opposes. I don't know why this has to be so difficult.

[Pantalones]

Its main difference between ki blast-type techniques is that its trajectory cannot be seen. Its destructive power is formidable enough to instantly obliterate the Tenkaichi Budoukai arena. Indeed, it is a technique characteristic of the Tsuru-sen School, whose objective is to mercilessly kill people.

Stated right here that it being an "invisible" attack is the main difference from a regular blast like Kamehameha or Final Flash, and that it's meant to kill people... and yet people on here love to argue that the Kikoho and/or Shin Kikoho "only pushes things" and isn't really powerful enough to even slightly hurt Cell (or the Androids, or even freaking Freeza) "because it's a kiai" and "it works different than regular blasts, just because!"...

[FoolsGil]

Guys guys guys guys guys, if the Kikoho was a kiai, why would Tenshinhan use it as an attempt to kill Nappa? Kiais do jack damage! By that logic, the Kikoho is not a kiai, who would waste their lives on a kiai??? And if the Kikoho was an energy attack then, it has always been an energy attack. It can not change properties between sagas, no matter how many hands are used. Thus, it is an energy attack OR A KIAI TECHNIQUE with energy properties, (which we will just say is an energy attack), and all energy attacks, if hits the core, would destroy a planet.

[Bussani]

To be fair, a few kiai techniques in the guidebooks are described as "sends your opponent flying" rather than "kills them".

Kiai Cannon
First Appearance: Chapter 308
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku, Cell
Special Characteristics: This attacks your opponent by firing an invisible, gigantic bundle of ki. It is a technique where a super-fast bundle of ki attacks your opponent and sends them flying. Goku used it during his death-match with Freeza on Planet Namek. (Daizenshuu 4, p.111)

Kiai Eyes
First Appearance: Chapter 463
Category: ki manipulation
People: Kaioshin, Majin Buu (good)
Special Characteristics: A technique where you blow away your opponent by glaring at them sharply. An invisible attack, it is capable of taking the enemy by surprise. After being hit with this technique by Kaioshin, Majin Buu (good) instantly mastered it, and unleashed it in imitation of Kaioshin.

But a kiai-type attack can definitely kill. It's outright stated that Kikoho would have killed Goku if he hadn't dodged it when fighting Tenshinhan, and Vegetto demonstrated that he could annihilate Buu with one if he felt like it. I think what people point out is just that even if your kiai isn't strong enough to kill your opponent, they still tend to send them flying if you catch them off guard (e.g. Freeza sending Super Saiyan Goku flying with one).

I'm sure a big enough and wide enough kiai-type attack could reduce the Earth to dust, going by how we've seen the more powerful kiai work in the story.

[dbgtFO]

^My personal bafflement at why it's brought up as the reason Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho could do that to Cell, is that it never seemed to be grounded in logic(of course it wouldn't have to be logical for it to be true).
The way it would work just seems way too convenient. That it would have the same effects, regardless of the huge differences in power between the beings it was used on, just seems silly.
It's like if Cell is a brick wall getting pushed 100 metres away by a strong wind and expecting the same would happen to a smaller & thinner wall made out of tree.

The fact that kiais manage to push things doesn't mean, that they'd just push anything regardless of power gap. Kaioshin's kiai attacks against Buu, only pushed him back slightly, but Buu's had a much greater effect(Kaioshin was blasted all the way over to Babidi), because the power behind it was much greater.
Likewise with #16's punch vs Cell, as opposed to Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho vs Cell.
Bullshit writing by Toriyama? Certainly, but that isn't of my concern.

[Hugo Boss]

Could Tenshinhan's Tribeam or Dodon Ray be a planet buster?

Maybe yes, maybe not. Depending on his target he could possibly manage to destroy the Earth, but it requires destructive power to do so and he couldn't demonstrated that.

[Son_Gohan]

Guys guys guys guys guys, if the Kikoho was a kiai, why would Tenshinhan use it as an attempt to kill Nappa?

Well Piccolo does kill Raditz with a kiai attack, albeit, while he was already at death's door.

The Kikoho is a powerful technique no doubt, but I don't think it's the type of attack that could destroy a planet, since its destructive force appears to be more concentrated at a precise area of impact and immediately dissipates. This is made evident by the fact that the Kikoho has been carelessly aimed directly at the Earth on a few occasions, but never expressed to be any threat to the planet, unlike many beam techniques that have held the same position.

The Dodonpa is kinda the same, with it lacking the destructive power and range to be incorporated for such a purpose.

The fact that kiais manage to push things doesn't mean, that they'd just push anything regardless of power gap. Kaioshin's kiai attacks against Buu, only pushed him back slightly, but Buu's had a much greater effect(Kaioshin was blasted all the way over to Babidi), because the power behind it was much greater.
Likewise with #16's punch vs Cell, as opposed to Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho vs Cell.
Bullshit writing by Toriyama? Certainly, but that isn't of my concern.

The material Buu's body is made of could have had something to do with that, as the attack appears to just blow away his face.

The difference is Cell could actually anticipate #16's punch and was nowhere near as fast as the Kikoho.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Explosion size doesn't mean anything due to the whole power compression thing. Going by explosion size, Roshi > Vegeta. Have you been paying attention? It's repeatedly stated, and then explained further in the guidebooks, that all these attacks have the raw power to destroy planets, but the fighters compress that power to only harm something in a small range (see the Daizenshuu descriptions for the Super Kamehameha and Big Bang Attack).

It goes without saying that not only should the explosion be big, but also powerful. The attack must be powerful enough to destroy the planet, but it also has to be able to go deep inside the planet, and make a huge enough explosion to make the whole planet go boom.

As we're never told that's how it works in DB. That's just how it worked with one specific attack on one specific planet in another galaxy. Pure Buu's planet buster clearly didn't work like that, given its quickness and how massively overkill the explosion was (calculating the explosion based on size and how it scattered the debris puts it at red dwarf star level IIRC).

Ki blasts are very fast. Look how fast the moon was destroyed when Kame-sennin & Piccolo destroyed it, or how fast Namek's core was destroyed, or how quickly U. Gohan's ki blast pierced the Earth. Or how fast Boo's blast destroyed the Earth.

No, because he compressed all the ki into a tiny area to increase its effectiveness.

Can Freeza's finger ki blast destroy a planet? No, it can't. Does it make it weaker than Vegeta's Gyarik-Ho? No, it doesn't. Can Vegeta's Gyarik-Ho destroy a planet? Yes, it can.

See my point?

Guys guys guys guys guys, if the Kikoho was a kiai, why would Tenshinhan use it as an attempt to kill Nappa?

Because it's not a normal weak kiai, it's a special powerful kiai. More deadly than a Kamehameha, and more risky than most techniques, since it could kill the user due to the huge energy consumption.

[RandomGuy96]

It goes without saying that not only should the explosion be big, but also powerful. The attack must be powerful enough to destroy the planet, but it also has to be able to go deep inside the planet, and make a huge enough explosion to make the whole planet go boom.

Any attack of sufficient power can create an explosion that large if the person firing it chooses not to condense the effect into a small area.

Ki blasts are very fast. Look how fast the moon was destroyed when Kame-sennin & Piccolo destroyed it, or how fast Namek's core was destroyed, or how quickly U. Gohan's ki blast pierced the Earth. Or how fast Boo's blast destroyed the Earth.

No one actually needs to destroy the core to destroy the planet. Pure Buu's planet buster proves that, as not only did it clearly not destroy the core, it created a ridiculous explosion that could not have come from simply making the planet detonate itself (somehow). We also have no indication that any planet but Namek can go out like that.

Ultimate Gohan never fired a single ki blast, IIRC.

Can Freeza's finger ki blast destroy a planet? No, it can't. Does it make it weaker than Vegeta's Gyarik-Ho? No, it doesn't. Can Vegeta's Gyarik-Ho destroy a planet? Yes, it can.

See my point?

Can Freeza's finger ki blast destroy a planet? Yes, it can. Freeza just has to choose not to condense it so that it explodes when it hits the planet. The energy just doesn't disappear; if you have the power to destroy the planet, no one is forcing you to keep it condensed. That's entirely your own choice.