Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[VegettoEX]

Agreed: "this is my viewpoint; don't you see my viewpoint?" is not an acceptable post at this point. If you're willing to engage in an actual conversation, by all means please engage in an actual conversation. If not, you quite literally have nothing to post.

[fadeddreams5]

To the gentleman who deleted your post - I invite you to repost what you stated before. I'm sorry for whatever reason made you feel uncomfortable having that post there but it was really good and supports the notion of this thread.

I deleted it cause I felt I was ranting. But eh....fuck it.

I haven't enjoyed the last few specials either. The problem with them is that they lack that--idk how else to call it--cool factor. You know, that quality that allows you to have conversations with people who don't like anime or manga at all about how awesome DBZ is. Things like Goku's SSJ3 transformation, Broly's appearance, the entirety of the android saga, SSJ2 Gohan, Goku's first SSJ transformation, Vegeta's badassery, and so on. If I were to list some examples as how they've diverted from this...

- We went from extraterrestrials like Namekians, Freeza's race, the Ginyu Force (cool AND funny), Dodoria and Zarbon, etc., to those Pokemon-looking creatures in the Bardock special. Not to mention, pudgy villains like Abo and Cado. Lastly, Beerus, the destroyer of worlds, looks like the easter rabbit. We went from awesome designs like Freeza, Cell, Broly, and Super/Kid Buu to... the easter bunny (I know he's a cat...). Lastly, Whis is the strongest in the universe, but looks like a transvestite. Come on...

- Vegeta's characterization has gone downhill, imo. I know he had an epiphany at the end of the Buu saga, but these movies have taken away what made him such a badass character. He used to have such an "idgaf" attitude, and impulsively charge into any battle, no matter how outmatched he was. Now the prince of all saiyans dances in front of crowds to avoid battle and nonchalantly greets a brother he would have blasted to bits in the past. Speaking of which...

- Vegeta... has a brother? And that brother is married to... a thing? And this long lost sibling, who shares full Saiyan blood, is not a fighter? I can't. I just... can't.

- SSJG is the opposite of cool.
*First of all, the method to activate it is akin to something you'd see in Sailor Moon. SSJ/SSJ2 is obtained (let's ignore Goten and Trunks here) when a saiyan has reached a certain BP and their emotions escalate during a time of need. SSJ3 is the saiyan's ultimate trump card, utilizing every bit of ki capacity they have before depleting it at a rapid pace. SSJ4 combines the SSJ and Oozaru forms into something completely separate that happens to be more powerful than a SSJ3. SSJG...uses the power of love. Okay, not really... but 5 pure hearted saiyans giving their energy? Saiyans have always been, in essence, blood knights who strive for battle. They're, instinctively, blood lusting fighters with limitless potential to become stronger through battle, but here we have a transformation that goes completely against that. Even Goku hated it, so why does Vegeta want it?!
*Secondly, it looks incredibly uncool. Basically, they just take a saiyan's base form, and butcher it. I mean, they're skinnier? Really? SSJ transformations have always been one of the absolute coolest factors of this series. For years, fans have drawn over-the-top SSJ5 transformations that emphasize on bulk, yet Toriyama gave them a form that is not only plain, but also skinny? And red hair and eyes are so generic in any medium. The only cool thing is the fire aura. I hope Goku has fully absorbed this form into himself and never uses it again. His regular SSJ form should just have fire aura to signify he's a god. The only thing worse than Goku's SSJG design would be Vegeta being blue in his. It's just... not cool.
*Lastly, the entire concept of God ki is terrible because it takes away a key aspect from the series: training. Think about it, if you're not a god, you can't fight new enemies. No amount of hard work will allow our heroes to catch up to them. Even SSJ3 Goku was completely outmatched. Speaking of which, we'll now never see SSJ2 and 3 again, most probably, which is a bit of a drag.

- They're significantly more lighthearted than the Buu saga. I made a topic about everyone's preferred DBZ tone because this series fluctuates in that regard, which I always found neat. But these specials sort of lack that sense of urgency/conflict seen in the past. Even the Buu saga had this and many moments of badassery (SSJ3, Majin Vegeta, Kid/Super Buu, final battle, etc), but BoG doesn't quite capture that, even with the world nearly about to blow up. I mean, did anyone notice how nonchalant Goku looked at the end when Beerus said he was going to blow up the planet? Compare that with Goku's face when Kid Buu charges his planet busting beam.
*Against Beerus:
Beerus - I'm going to blow up the planet anyways! A god must keep his word.
Goku - Oh, fiddle sticks!

Against Buu:
Buu: Hahhaahhaha sdhasgdagshd *drools* *charges laser*
Goku: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Why Buu, WHY?!

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these specials/movies, but I don't hate them either. They're humorous--though if you're not into this humor, then they're just lame. They lack the sense of badassery which is what got me--and probably, the majority of the west--into DBZ in the first place. None of my friends, or casual DBZ fans, liked BoG. I hope the next movie brings the "kickass" back to this series, but with that Freeza w/sash toy, I feel he's just gonna be the butt of a joke for the majority of the movie. We'll see. Either way, I'm excited to see the return of my favorite DBZ villain.

TL;DR - DBZ used to be a testosterone-fest of action and hardcore badassery, combined with comedic moments that created a balance. Now, it's shifted back to its DB roots, in terms of tone. Despite the quantity of the action in these specials/movies, they just lack that cool factor the series had in the past. It wasn't just about fighting, but fighting for the reason of preventing calamity, which you felt through the clear sense of conflict/urgency the situation created (e.g. Android or Freeza dilemma). Now, that sense of conflict is centered around a joke (i.e. Beerus about to blow up the planet cause he doesn't get pudding or is slightly annoyed for whatever reason). Combine this with lame new transformations, characters, and character designs, and you got yourself many turned off fans.

[Lord Beerus]

I haven't enjoyed the last few specials either. The problem with them is that they lack that--idk how else to call it--cool factor. You know, that quality that allows you to have conversations with people who don't like anime or manga at all about how awesome DBZ is. Things like Goku's SSJ3 transformation, Broly's appearance, the entirety of the android saga, SSJ2 Gohan, Goku's first SSJ transformation, Vegeta's badassery, and so on. If I were to list some examples as how they've diverted from this...

- We went from extraterrestrials like Namekians, Freeza's race, the Ginyu Force (cool AND funny), Dodoria and Zarbon, etc., to those Pokemon-looking creatures in the Bardock special. Not to mention, pudgy villains like Abo and Cado. Lastly, Beerus, the destroyer of worlds, looks like the easter rabbit. We went from awesome designs like Freeza, Cell, Broly, and Super/Kid Buu to... the easter bunny (I know he's a cat...). Lastly, Whis is the strongest in the universe, but looks like a transvestite. Come on...

- Vegeta's characterization has gone downhill, imo. I know he had an epiphany at the end of the Buu saga, but these movies have taken away what made him such a badass character. He used to have such an "idgaf" attitude, and impulsively charge into any battle, no matter how outmatched he was. Now the prince of all saiyans dances in front of crowds to avoid battle and nonchalantly greets a brother he would have blasted to bits in the past. Speaking of which...

- Vegeta... has a brother? And that brother is married to... a thing? And this long lost sibling, who shares full Saiyan blood, is not a fighter? I can't. I just... can't.

- SSJG is the opposite of cool.
*First of all, the method to activate it is akin to something you'd see in Sailor Moon. SSJ/SSJ2 is obtained (let's ignore Goten and Trunks here) when a saiyan has reached a certain BP and their emotions escalate during a time of need. SSJ3 is the saiyan's ultimate trump card, utilizing every bit of ki capacity they have before depleting it at a rapid pace. SSJ4 combines the SSJ and Oozaru forms into something completely separate that happens to be more powerful than a SSJ3. SSJG...uses the power of love. Okay, not really... but 5 pure hearted saiyans giving their energy? Saiyans have always been, in essence, blood knights who strive for battle. They're, instinctively, blood lusting fighters with limitless potential to become stronger through battle, but here we have a transformation that goes completely against that. Even Goku hated it, so why does Vegeta want it?!
*Secondly, it looks incredibly uncool. Basically, they just take a saiyan's base form, and butcher it. I mean, they're skinnier? Really? SSJ transformations have always been one of the absolute coolest factors of this series. For years, fans have drawn over-the-top SSJ5 transformations that emphasize on bulk, yet Toriyama gave them a form that is not only plain, but also skinny? And red hair and eyes are so generic in any medium. The only cool thing is the fire aura. I hope Goku has fully absorbed this form into himself and never uses it again. His regular SSJ form should just have fire aura to signify he's a god. The only thing worse than Goku's SSJG design would be Vegeta being blue in his. It's just... not cool.
*Lastly, the entire concept of God ki is terrible because it takes away a key aspect from the series: training. Think about it, if you're not a god, you can't fight new enemies. No amount of hard work will allow our heroes to catch up to them. Even SSJ3 Goku was completely outmatched. Speaking of which, we'll now never see SSJ2 and 3 again, most probably, which is a bit of a drag.

- They're significantly more lighthearted than the Buu saga. I made a topic about everyone's preferred DBZ tone because this series fluctuates in that regard, which I always found neat. But these specials sort of lack that sense of urgency/conflict seen in the past. Even the Buu saga had this and many moments of badassery (SSJ3, Majin Vegeta, Kid/Super Buu, final battle, etc), but BoG doesn't quite capture that, even with the world nearly about to blow up. I mean, did anyone notice how nonchalant Goku looked at the end when Beerus said he was going to blow up the planet? Compare that with Goku's face when Kid Buu charges his planet busting beam.
*Against Beerus:
Beerus - I'm going to blow up the planet anyways! A god must keep his word.
Goku - Oh, fiddle sticks!

Against Buu:
Buu: Hahhaahhaha sdhasgdagshd *drools* *charges laser*
Goku: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Why Buu, WHY?!

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these specials/movies, but I don't hate them either. They're humorous--though if you're not into this humor, then they're just lame. They lack the sense of badassery which is what got me--and probably, the majority of the west--into DBZ in the first place. None of my friends, or casual DBZ fans, liked BoG. I hope the next movie brings the "kickass" back to this series, but with that Freeza w/sash toy, I feel he's just gonna be the butt of a joke for the majority of the movie. We'll see. Either way, I'm excited to see the return of my favorite DBZ villain.

TL;DR - DBZ used to be a testosterone-fest of action and hardcore badassery, combined with comedic moments that created a balance. Now, it's shifted back to its DB roots, in terms of tone. Despite the quantity of the action in these specials/movies, they just lack that cool factor the series had in the past. It wasn't just about fighting, but fighting for the reason of preventing calamity, which you felt through the clear sense of conflict/urgency the situation created (e.g. Android or Freeza dilemma). Now, that sense of conflict is centered around a joke (i.e. Beerus about to blow up the planet cause he doesn't get pudding or is slightly annoyed for whatever reason). Combine this with lame new transformations, characters, and character designs, and you got yourself many turned off fans.

While you make a few good points I think the way you've interpreted DBZ have been very skewered. Dragon Ball (Z) is Wuxia. Basically it's all about the weird and wonderful adventures of a group or martial artists, the Z-Fighters. While Dragon Ball Z was cool and badass in the eyes of millions of people, focusing too much on making the characters look cool will leave less time in making them likable. Beerus may not look the most intimating villain ever but that shouldn't determine whether he can be likable as a villain. Beerus proved to be immensely entertaining and many see him as best villain in the franchise purely for how fun and well characterized he is. People didn't care Beerus looked a Egyptian cat, they assessed. him for the content of his character. Judging a book by it's cover is the most shallow thing you can do.

I get it, people want everything and everyone in Dragon Ball Z to look cool, but when take into consideration the kind, or lack of, characterization they have, why should care for the character beyond the fact they look cool? Broly epitomizes everything wrong with Dragon Ball Z. He may look cool, but he has zero character, other than the usual generic doomsday villain characterization, that every other DBZ villain in the anime, manga or movies has, with the exception of Freeza and Beerus, who at least had a purpose or is deeply connected to the Dragon Ball lore in some way. Dragon Ball Z already gets a lot of criticism in retrospect for not having a lot of character development, save Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Mr Satan and maybe Majin Buu. And it doesn't help that series barely had any comedy or some degree of lightheartedness, save the Ginyu Force, but even then the humor was somewhat dark, until the Majin Boo arc which could of severed as cool down periods for character development.

Stuff like Vegeta having a pacifist brother that married an alien, a Egyptian cat who is essentially a man child and who's job is destroy planet, a Super Saiyan God Ki, Gods of Destruction, God Ki and a super competent Bishonen looking butler/assistant who's head is also in the clouds, are really great twists to what was tried and true but also stale DBZ formula. It was something fresh and something not done before in the franchise, and obviously stuff like that may turn off some casual fans but it also draws in new fans on the basis, "We haven't seen something like this before in DBZ, lets check it out."

I love the fact that Battle Of Gods didn't want to be just another DBZ movie, it wanted to take risks in some areas. Seeing Vegeta act like a fool in BOG, may have angered some Vegeta fans but it added to his character because it showed he was willing to throw away his pride, the most precious thing to him, if meant the world wouldn't be destroyed, and the fact he wouldn't have done something like in previous years just show how much he grown as a person. Hell, Goku even points out how much of a better person Vegeta is compared to him because of how far he went to protect the planet. The whole concept of Super Saiyan God also defies expectations of what people would have when it came to transformations. It's not extravagant or over the top, it's basic. And that the point of it. I mean did you know what the original design of the Super Saiyan God was? It had Goku's muscle mas increasing (again), his hair becoming spikier (again) but the worst of it all is that he was set to wear a cape. A cape. As if the comparisons between Goku and Superman weren't already annoying, that would have been the icing on the cake. And one thing thing you should know about Toriyama is he love to defy the trope that have been accustomed to Dragon Ball over the years. And also the fact it used by a small fraction of pure hearted Saiyans to defeat evil Saiyans? Which means there was ancient Saiyan Civil War? Boom. You've now got a previously uncovered and lost part of Dragon Ball history that can be explored immensely. And that's not even getting in the concept of the Gods Of Destruction's, which has tons of potential to be explored.

Dragon Ball Z will always be cool and badass, but sometimes it needs to be more than just that. Think outside of the box. Let Dragon Ball be more outlandish and subvert the exceptions that come with the franchise. That was Dragon Ball's charm, defying and parodying what you would expect... only for it down the line to become what it parodied. And while Dragon Ball Z may have been awesome for that, it lost its soul and spirit to a degree and just became an excuse for over muscular characters to fight each other to the death all the time with little to no context and in the eyes of many people was just a run-of-the-action/drama with an occasional use of dark humor... until the Majin Boo arc.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The show going back to it's roots was a big plus imo, BoG did something different as Lord Beerus said.

Vegeta still maintained his badassary and got to kick butt whilst at the same time showing how far he has come, take when everyone applauded him, did he bow no, he reacted as Vegeta would.

Regarding tarble- Not all Saiayns are fighers, as shown in the infamous DB Minus. Vegeta married an alien so why cannot his brother?

Beerus and SSG show that you don't need OTT muscles to be powerful, the are both slim by design and therefore the fight flowed much better as opposed to say the Broly Movie, I for one am glad that they didn't go with an over the top transformation for Goku, keep it simple and effective.

Regarding Goku and the Earth- I think Goku was just fed up and wanted the damn thing to blow up

[Attitudefan]

I wonder if the skinny look of a Saiyan God is based off Bruce Lee since he was a small, skinny guy, yet strong like an ox.

[fadeddreams5]

I haven't enjoyed the last few specials either. The problem with them is that they lack that--idk how else to call it--cool factor. You know, that quality that allows you to have conversations with people who don't like anime or manga at all about how awesome DBZ is. Things like Goku's SSJ3 transformation, Broly's appearance, the entirety of the android saga, SSJ2 Gohan, Goku's first SSJ transformation, Vegeta's badassery, and so on. If I were to list some examples as how they've diverted from this...

- We went from extraterrestrials like Namekians, Freeza's race, the Ginyu Force (cool AND funny), Dodoria and Zarbon, etc., to those Pokemon-looking creatures in the Bardock special. Not to mention, pudgy villains like Abo and Cado. Lastly, Beerus, the destroyer of worlds, looks like the easter rabbit. We went from awesome designs like Freeza, Cell, Broly, and Super/Kid Buu to... the easter bunny (I know he's a cat...). Lastly, Whis is the strongest in the universe, but looks like a transvestite. Come on...

- Vegeta's characterization has gone downhill, imo. I know he had an epiphany at the end of the Buu saga, but these movies have taken away what made him such a badass character. He used to have such an "idgaf" attitude, and impulsively charge into any battle, no matter how outmatched he was. Now the prince of all saiyans dances in front of crowds to avoid battle and nonchalantly greets a brother he would have blasted to bits in the past. Speaking of which...

- Vegeta... has a brother? And that brother is married to... a thing? And this long lost sibling, who shares full Saiyan blood, is not a fighter? I can't. I just... can't.

- SSJG is the opposite of cool.
*First of all, the method to activate it is akin to something you'd see in Sailor Moon. SSJ/SSJ2 is obtained (let's ignore Goten and Trunks here) when a saiyan has reached a certain BP and their emotions escalate during a time of need. SSJ3 is the saiyan's ultimate trump card, utilizing every bit of ki capacity they have before depleting it at a rapid pace. SSJ4 combines the SSJ and Oozaru forms into something completely separate that happens to be more powerful than a SSJ3. SSJG...uses the power of love. Okay, not really... but 5 pure hearted saiyans giving their energy? Saiyans have always been, in essence, blood knights who strive for battle. They're, instinctively, blood lusting fighters with limitless potential to become stronger through battle, but here we have a transformation that goes completely against that. Even Goku hated it, so why does Vegeta want it?!
*Secondly, it looks incredibly uncool. Basically, they just take a saiyan's base form, and butcher it. I mean, they're skinnier? Really? SSJ transformations have always been one of the absolute coolest factors of this series. For years, fans have drawn over-the-top SSJ5 transformations that emphasize on bulk, yet Toriyama gave them a form that is not only plain, but also skinny? And red hair and eyes are so generic in any medium. The only cool thing is the fire aura. I hope Goku has fully absorbed this form into himself and never uses it again. His regular SSJ form should just have fire aura to signify he's a god. The only thing worse than Goku's SSJG design would be Vegeta being blue in his. It's just... not cool.
*Lastly, the entire concept of God ki is terrible because it takes away a key aspect from the series: training. Think about it, if you're not a god, you can't fight new enemies. No amount of hard work will allow our heroes to catch up to them. Even SSJ3 Goku was completely outmatched. Speaking of which, we'll now never see SSJ2 and 3 again, most probably, which is a bit of a drag.

- They're significantly more lighthearted than the Buu saga. I made a topic about everyone's preferred DBZ tone because this series fluctuates in that regard, which I always found neat. But these specials sort of lack that sense of urgency/conflict seen in the past. Even the Buu saga had this and many moments of badassery (SSJ3, Majin Vegeta, Kid/Super Buu, final battle, etc), but BoG doesn't quite capture that, even with the world nearly about to blow up. I mean, did anyone notice how nonchalant Goku looked at the end when Beerus said he was going to blow up the planet? Compare that with Goku's face when Kid Buu charges his planet busting beam.
*Against Beerus:
Beerus - I'm going to blow up the planet anyways! A god must keep his word.
Goku - Oh, fiddle sticks!

Against Buu:
Buu: Hahhaahhaha sdhasgdagshd *drools* *charges laser*
Goku: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Why Buu, WHY?!

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these specials/movies, but I don't hate them either. They're humorous--though if you're not into this humor, then they're just lame. They lack the sense of badassery which is what got me--and probably, the majority of the west--into DBZ in the first place. None of my friends, or casual DBZ fans, liked BoG. I hope the next movie brings the "kickass" back to this series, but with that Freeza w/sash toy, I feel he's just gonna be the butt of a joke for the majority of the movie. We'll see. Either way, I'm excited to see the return of my favorite DBZ villain.

TL;DR - DBZ used to be a testosterone-fest of action and hardcore badassery, combined with comedic moments that created a balance. Now, it's shifted back to its DB roots, in terms of tone. Despite the quantity of the action in these specials/movies, they just lack that cool factor the series had in the past. It wasn't just about fighting, but fighting for the reason of preventing calamity, which you felt through the clear sense of conflict/urgency the situation created (e.g. Android or Freeza dilemma). Now, that sense of conflict is centered around a joke (i.e. Beerus about to blow up the planet cause he doesn't get pudding or is slightly annoyed for whatever reason). Combine this with lame new transformations, characters, and character designs, and you got yourself many turned off fans.

While you make a few good points I think the way you've interpreted DBZ have been very skewered. Dragon Ball (Z) is Wuxia. Basically it's all about the weird and wonderful adventures of a group or martial artists, the Z-Fighters. While Dragon Ball Z was cool and badass in the eyes of millions of people, focusing too much on making the characters look cool will leave less time in making them likable. Beerus may not look the most intimating villain ever but that shouldn't determine whether he can be likable as a villain. Beerus proved to be immensely entertaining and many see him as best villain in the franchise purely for how fun and well characterized he is. People didn't care Beerus looked a Egyptian cat, they assessed. him for the content of his character. Judging a book by it's cover is the most shallow thing you can do.

I get it, people want everything and everyone in Dragon Ball Z to look cool, but when take into consideration the kind, or lack of, characterization they have, why should care for the character beyond the fact they look cool? Broly epitomizes everything wrong with Dragon Ball Z. He may look cool, but he has zero character, other than the usual generic doomsday villain characterization, that every other DBZ villain in the anime, manga or movies has, with the exception of Freeza and Beerus, who at least had a purpose or is deeply connected to the Dragon Ball lore in some way. Dragon Ball Z already gets a lot of criticism in retrospect for not having a lot of character development, save Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Mr Satan and maybe Majin Buu. And it doesn't help that series barely had any comedy or some degree of lightheartedness, save the Ginyu Force, but even then the humor was somewhat dark, until the Majin Boo arc which could of severed as cool down periods for character development.

Stuff like Vegeta having a pacifist brother that married an alien, a Egyptian cat who is essentially a man child and who's job is destroy planet, a Super Saiyan God Ki, Gods of Destruction, God Ki and a super competent Bishonen looking butler/assistant who's head is also in the clouds, are really great twists to what was tried and true but also stale DBZ formula. It was something fresh and something not done before in the franchise, and obviously stuff like that may turn off some casual fans but it also draws in new fans on the basis, "We haven't seen something like this before in DBZ, lets check it out."

I love the fact that Battle Of Gods didn't want to be just another DBZ movie, it wanted to take risks in some areas. Seeing Vegeta act like a fool in BOG, may have angered some Vegeta fans but it added to his character because it showed he was willing to throw away his pride, the most precious thing to him, if meant the world wouldn't be destroyed, and the fact he wouldn't have done something like in previous years just show how much he grown as a person. Hell, Goku even points out how much of a better person Vegeta is compared to him because of how far he went to protect the planet. The whole concept of Super Saiyan God also defies expectations of what people would have when it came to transformations. It's not extravagant or over the top, it's basic. And that the point of it. I mean did you know what the original design of the Super Saiyan God was? It had Goku's muscle mas increasing (again), his hair becoming spikier (again) but the worst of it all is that he was set to wear a cape. A cape. As if the comparisons between Goku and Superman weren't already annoying, that would have been the icing on the cake. And one thing thing you should know about Toriyama is he love to defy the trope that have been accustomed to Dragon Ball over the years. And also the fact it used by a small fraction of pure hearted Saiyans to defeat evil Saiyans? Which means there was ancient Saiyan Civil War? Boom. You've now got a previously uncovered and lost part of Dragon Ball history that can be explored immensely. And that's not even getting in the concept of the Gods Of Destruction's, which has tons of potential to be explored.

Dragon Ball Z will always be cool and badass, but sometimes it needs to be more than just that. Think outside of the box. Let Dragon Ball be more outlandish and subvert the exceptions that come with the franchise. That was Dragon Ball's charm, defying and parodying what you would expect... only for it down the line to become what it parodied. And while Dragon Ball Z may have been awesome for that, it lost its soul and spirit to a degree and just became an excuse for over muscular characters to fight each other to the death all the time with little to no context and in the eyes of many people was just a run-of-the-action/drama with an occasional use of dark humor... until the Majin Boo arc.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely understand and value the full quality of a character. As in, I like Beerus; I just don't quite think he's, well, "cool." Honestly, it's very hard for me to explain this notion because "cool factor" is something as subjective as music. And I completely understand what you mean by them adding new elements to the formula to keep things fresh. I'm always up for new ideas. It's just these recent specials and movies lack that extra something DBZ previously had that had me at the edge of my seat thinking, "OMG. That. Is. Awesome!" Early DB may have lacked that, but its sense of adventure compensated for anything it lacked. One Piece is basically an evolved version of that.

However, when I think "DBZ", I think of the coolest, most badass anime ever created, which emphasized on action and could have any sort of tone it wanted. And maybe that's my problem--this is a series that can have any tone it desires, yet it's had the same one for three specials/movies, as well as that Minus thing. Dammit, I want the tone back to what it was during the Saiyan/Namek or Android/Cell sagas. That sense of dire urgency. Toriyama created a brilliant lore that can be used to tell any sort of story, so restricting it to this more comedic-style is just getting a bit tired for me. Combine that with the, well, questionable new additions I mentioned before that don't quite hit home, and things are getting ehhhh. But that's just me.

[hleV]

BOG (and JSAT?) shows what happens when you let Toriyama have his way, which is to go against the fans' wishes for the lulz, when he doesn't have an editor to point out that his ideas are shit. Was BOG/JSAT good? To many people it was, to many it wasn't. Could it have been way, way better by satisfying all the fans that liked DB for different things? Definitely, but not if Toriyama works on the script/designs/etc. alone.

[Attitudefan]

So are you saying that Toriyama has the George Lucas syndrome where he needs people to say "no"?

[Akumaito Beam]

I don’t feel like the barrage of lackluster material is anything new. Every summer Toei would pump out cash grab movies when the anime and manga were ongoing. I think everyone has rose tinted goggles for these flicks because they were here long before the core fans picked up their first VHS fansub but if you want to talk lazy, half hearted and mindless the Z films are great examples. They’re boring recaps of the anime series with “new” villains. At their worst these villains have no personality to speak of (Bojack,Tulluce,Wheelo,13,14,15) and at their best they are merely rehashes of the latest anime villain (Cooler and Jenemba). The movies have no qualm creating half thought out relationships to the main series like Brolly being the real Legendary Super Saiyan and Tapion being how Trunks received his sword. Nobody even needs to harp on Brolly at this point. The issues with his three films are well known. These movies exemplified the worst parts of Dragon Ball, there was little to no plot in any of them. They consisted of nothing but hour long fight scenes and in my humble opinion none of the skirmishes were particularly great. Also Goku literally brings a small dead golden bird back to life by going Super Saiyan. Hope of the universe Goku has nothing on Toei Goku.

That being said I’m not a huge fan of the newest material despite it being heads and shoulders better than the old movies. It’s exasperating when writers constantly vomit up new events for a concluded series. “Oh and this happened, oh and this happened, oh and this happened” you can only do that so many times before it looks stupid. At least the old movies had the decency to lack any and all continuity so I didn’t have to glance twice at them. Not to mention the last thing this series needs is more redundant transformations. The funny thing is I actually do like Yo Son Goku because they went out of their way to make it perfectly clear that the events in that film were so goofy nobody would be bothered to remember them, I dig the humility. Table is pretty ridiculous but I figure if you wanted to roll your eyes at long lost siblings coming out of nowhere you missed the boat with Raditz. Bardock…Oh god did they bend Bardock over a barrel. Sub fans (myself included) love to shit all over dub Bardock but if you want to take the current Bardock as “canon” he’s an even bigger misunderstood nice guy trying to do what’s right in this big ol’ mixed up world. Ultimately more “Bardocks” will happen, it’s invertible. Just ask the extended Star Wars universe. Writers will pick and choose established characters to tell whatever garbage fanfic pops into their minds. They’ll all fight for their fanfic to be the definitive one and our stupid Japanese kids cartoon will look like an even dumber Japanese kids cartoon.

[B]

BOG (and JSAT?) shows what happens when you let Toriyama have his way, which is to go against the fans' wishes for the lulz

Oh no! You mean he's writing a story without the influence of disconcerting and inconsistent outsiders? That's unpossible!

You can't just lump "fans" altogether and speak for their "wishes."

[Gyt Kaliba]

Oh no! You mean he's writing a story without the influence of disconcerting and inconsistent outsiders? That's unpossible!

You can't just lump "fans" altogether and speak for their "wishes."

This, so much so. Besides, there are also fans that want to see Toriyama essentially do whatever he wants with the series, because Dragon Ball at it's best is pure Toriyama anyway - and count me amongst them.

[MajinAsura]

These new movies all 2 of them, are hardly ruining the franchise, GT and Evolution did that, infact these new movies are doing the opposite, they're repairing the franchise.

GT ruined what? People love the SSJ4s.

And hate everything else about GT.

It did get better around the baby saga, though.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It did get better around the baby saga, though.

If they had gone straight into that and then after done the shadow/evil dragons arc, and cut all the bullshit out like Goku being a kid etc then GT would have been a decent sequel to Z instead of a poor one. Having said that I am still glad it exists, just reminds me how bad Dragon ball can get when Toriyama isn't at the helm.

[fadeddreams5]

IMO, they should have cut out the entirety of the Bebi and Super 17 sagas, and combined the Shadow Dragon and Black Star dragon ball sagas together. So basically, there's no such thing as black star dragon balls. Instead, Pilaf tries to make a wish on the regular set of dragon balls, but the negative energy they've absorbed or whatever leads to Black Shenron appearing and dividing into the shadow dragons, which are scattered throughout the universe. Now Goku and crew (as in, the majority of the z-warriors, besides the weaker humans) have to journey (SEPARATELY) to different planets that the dragons have settled into, defeat them, and collect the dragon balls before the Earth disintegrates.

This would have not only lead to character development for ALL main cast members besides Goku, but also unique stories revolving around the influence the shadow dragons have had on the respective planets they've landed in. Essentially, every planet visit would be its own arc, with different characters/pairs (i.e. Goten and Trunks, Pan and Uub, Gohan, etc) sharing the lead role. Naturally, Goku and Vegeta would run into the stronger dragons (i.e. Syn, Nova, and so on) in the planets they visit, while characters like Pan and Trunks would run into the weaker ones. Some dragons would be nerfed, and SSJ4 could be introduced at the very end when Syn/Omega Shenron shows up (no Gogeta).

There you go. DB and DBZ combined into one; GT... only good (assuming execution is well done).

[hleV]

Oh no! You mean he's writing a story without the influence of disconcerting and inconsistent outsiders? That's unpossible!

You can't just lump "fans" altogether and speak for their "wishes."

This, so much so. Besides, there are also fans that want to see Toriyama essentially do whatever he wants with the series, because Dragon Ball at it's best is pure Toriyama anyway - and count me amongst them.

DB is good because Toriyama + Editor, not just Toriyama. Stop defending BOG only because it happened to deliver what you enjoy about DB, because it didn't deliver what many others enjoy about DB.

[rereboy]

DB is good because Toriyama + Editor, not just Toriyama. Stop defending BOG only because it happened to deliver what you enjoy about DB, because it didn't deliver what many others enjoy about DB.

Why can't they defend it because they like it, if you can attack it because you don't like it?

[shinmaru]

The Animation is not as good as 90's It's not hating but a little disappointment.
I'm happy we get new stuff it's better than nothing.

[Zenkashuu]

The things that I don't like in new movies/specials are

a) the waterdown violence and

b) the art syle. I'd take Buu/Cell arc art style any day over the new one.

[hleV]

DB is good because Toriyama + Editor, not just Toriyama. Stop defending BOG only because it happened to deliver what you enjoy about DB, because it didn't deliver what many others enjoy about DB.

Why can't they defend it because they like it, if you can attack it because you don't like it?

The attacks are due to the movie's flaws. The defending is due to... someone liking the movie? Attacks (not necessarily all kinds of, but still) are justified, defending is not.

[rereboy]

The attacks are due to the movie's flaws. The defending is due to... someone liking the movie? Attacks (not necessarily all kinds of, but still) are justified, defending is not.

Actually, the attacks are due to what you perceive as flaws. Other people might just don't agree. And the defending is due to what people perceive as strengths. And you might just not agree with that.

Meaning that you consider your own opinion justified, but not the opinion of others.