Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[rereboy]

many people like everything in Dragon Ball AND Battle of Gods

That is good to know. I like Dragon Ball AND Star Wars.

How you can't understand from this that not liking BOG is just your opinion is beyond me.

Not liking BOG is my opinion? Some like it, some don't. Perhaps I went overboard with the idea that "there's something wrong with BOG", I should've said "BOG is not the same DB experience and many people who liked DB see that and in turn, dislike it". Now whether BOG not being the same experience is good or bad, that's subjective. Is it a valid reason to dislike it, though? YES. So, again, I'm asking to stop defending BOG only because it happened to appeal to you (speaking in general), let alone deem others' reasons (such as quite a few contradictions in a short period of time, ass-pulled additions to what we knew about DB and lack of explanations thereof, etc.) for disliking BOG invalid or not worth arguing about. In return, I don't go and try to invalidate the reasons people like BOG for.

Actually, no, there are many people who go as far as saying that BOG went back to the roots of Dragon Ball, so its a DB experience all the way to them. You continue to not be aware that what you are saying is just your opinion.

Also, please please stop criticizing BOG (and the people who like it) just because it happened to not appeal to you.

One can always defend their stance/opinion. It's just that people seem to defend a movie as if it's completely fine as is, even though it clearly does have flaws as far as many people are concerned. Wait, don't say it... whether contradictions and other random shit are flaws is... subjective.

Those silly fans... Not agreeing with you on what is a flaw or not... Its as if the review of a movie isn't a objective demonstration that follows a precise formula!

Btw, I happen to think that BOG was kind of meh. But I'm not going to argue that somehow what I think about a movie is something objective that others have to agree or otherwise they are wrong and that they should really stop defending their view/opinion.

[hleV]

Actually, no, there are many people who go as far as saying that BOG went back to the roots of Dragon Ball, so its a DB experience all the way to them.

What are DB roots? Humor does not represent the whole DB.

Also, please please stop criticizing BOG (and the people who like it) just because it happened to not appeal to you.

In my opinion™, the reasoning for my criticism is justified. So I criticize. Now why defend the movie against criticism if criticism is just based on opinions? Why even argue at all if it's all opinion and absolutely no logic that most would agree with can be applied here? Do people just flip their shit when somebody writes something without adding "IMO" in the sentence?

Those silly fans... Not agreeing with you on what is a flaw or not... Its as if the review of a movie isn't a objective demonstration that follows a precise formula!

So you do believe that whether BOG has contradictions is subjective? You do believe that BOG does not give any more room to doubt its validity than DB itself, and that people make shit up for some reason?
That's like saying that Toriyama is just like he was back when he wrote DB and that BOG completely represents how it would've been had Toriyama actually had an editor. Subjective, isn't it?

DB is Toriyama + editor.
BOG is Toriyama.
If you argue with this fact, then I can't be bothered to argue with you.

[UpFromTheSkies]

DB is Toriyama + editor

Toriyama had multiple editors throughout the series, and they didn't create Dragon Ball in a vacuum; his friends, family, fans, and other writers also influenced what he did with the series.

[rereboy]

What are DB roots? Humor does not represent the whole DB.

Many would define Dragon Ball's roots as humor coupled with light-hearted action. And many would state that that's exactly what BOG is. You just apparently disagree with that or just didn't like the execution.

In my opinion™, the reasoning for my criticism is justified. So I criticize. Now why defend the movie against criticism if criticism is just based on opinions? Why even argue at all if it's all opinion and absolutely no logic that most would agree with can be applied here? Do people just flip their shit when somebody writes something without adding "IMO" in the sentence?

You can have whatever opinion you want, but when you start telling people to shut up because they don't agree with you... Yeah, there's no reasoning to justify that.

So you do believe that whether BOG has contradictions is subjective? You do believe that BOG does not give any more room to doubt its validity than DB itself, and that people make shit up for some reason?
That's like saying that Toriyama is just like he was back when he wrote DB and that BOG completely represents how it would've been had Toriyama actually had an editor. Subjective, isn't it?

DB is Toriyama + editor.
BOG is Toriyama.
If you argue with this fact, then I can't be bothered to argue with you.

The fact that Toriyama didn't work on BOG on the same exact conditions that he had to work on the manga, doesn't automatically mean that BOG has to be unlike Dragon Ball. You just didn't like BOG and, because you didn't like it, you are blaming what you didn't like on the fact that Toriyama didn't work on it in the same conditions he had for the manga. If you had liked it, you would either not mention or not care at all that Toriyama had different conditions to work on it or you would claim that the variation of the conditions didn't affect him at all.

And I believe that, when it comes to judging a piece of art/entertainment, people have different opinions because its inherently a subjective experience. I don't believe that, just because a certain number of people has a opinion, that opinion has higher validity than other opinions, or that I, or someone else, has to agree with that opinion.

[hleV]

The fact that Toriyama didn't work on BOG on the same exact conditions that he had to work on the manga, doesn't automatically mean that BOG has to be unlike Dragon Ball.

But it is. What, am I suddenly unable to tell the series and the movie being different even though I read the manga every so often and have seen BOG multiple times?

You just didn't like BOG and, because you didn't like it, you are blaming what you didn't like on the fact that Toriyama didn't work on it in the same conditions he had for the manga.

How am I wrong about it?

If you had liked it, you would either not mention or not care at all that Toriyama had different conditions to work on it or you would claim that the variation of the conditions didn't affect him at all.

That is absolutely correct! That's what most people who liked BOG do: not see/care about the bad things about BOG and defend it because they liked it, not because there's a good reason to defend it.

And I believe that, when it comes to judging a piece of art/entertainment, people have different opinions because its inherently a subjective experience. I don't believe that, just because a certain number of people has a opinion, that opinion has higher validity than other opinions, or that I, or someone else, has to agree with that opinion.

It does provide a trend that should be considered, though.

[rereboy]

But it is. What, am I suddenly unable to tell the series and the movie being different even though I read the manga every so often and have seen BOG multiple times?

What, other people are suddenly unable to have a valid opinion about BOB just because they disagree with you about BOG, even though they read the manga every so often and have seen BOG multiple times?

Because that's basically what you are saying... You think something about BOB and it must be right because you think that way.

How am I wrong about it?

You are wrong in the part where you tell people to shut up just because they don't agree with you and in the part where you assume that your opinion has objectively more validity than anyone else just because you think so. Everything else is just your personal view, all I can do is agree or disagree with it, that's all.

That is absolutely correct! That's what most people who liked BOG do: not see/care about the bad things about BOG and defend it because they liked it, not because there's a good reason to defend it.

You do realize that that implies that its purely subjective, don't you...? In their opinion there's a good reason to defend it. If you had liked the movie you would also agree that there was good reasons to defend it. You just don't because you didn't like it.

It does provide a trend that should be considered, though.

Oh? How should the fact that many people think Justin Bieber is a great musician affect my opinion in any way? If I gave him a fair shot, listened to him, judged him according to my subjective tastes for music, and didn't agree with that notion, how is that trend relevant to me? Why should it have higher validity than any another opinion? It shouldn't and its meaningless because, being a subjective experience, the answer/opinion will be different from person to person.

And, since it varies from person to person, just like I recognize that there's no point in following other people's opinion, I also recognize that there's no point in trying to make other people to follow my opinion and make them shut up about their opinion.

[VegettoEX]

hleV, I get the feeling that even if I sat here and provided an exhaustive laundry list of the things I liked about the film, what they mean to me, how I feel about them, and why I think it stands as a solid piece of fiction, you still wouldn't be happy, because it wouldn't jive with your opinion.

I say this because any hints of that happening - shorter responses with the same kind of material - is met with the expected response from you.

That's not a conversation. That's nothing. That's disruptive, toxic, infuriating behavior.

Enough is enough. Seriously. Enough. The end. You're done.

I'm thankful for everyone else who is willing to engage in a legitimate conversation with their fellow fans, accept and maybe even ponder these different opinions, and do so with a smile on their face.

[hleV]

hleV, I get the feeling that even if I sat here and provided an exhaustive laundry list of the things I liked about the film, what they mean to me, how I feel about them, and why I think it stands as a solid piece of fiction, you still wouldn't be happy, because it wouldn't jive with your opinion.

Well yes, I don't really get happy or unhappy depending on what other people enjoy or don't enjoy about BOG. And since I never said BOG cannot be enjoyed, I don't see how is it relevant.

I'm a little confused about what this argument is about (though I'm pretty sure the conversation is at least remotely on-topic). BOG being bad is my own opinion. I'm not trying to push it to others. That's not why I asked to stop defending it. I asked to stop defending BOG only because you liked it. Liking something is not really a valid reason for emerging in this kind of argument, because it's "I liked it, it's good" versus "I didn't like it, it's bad". I'll be repeating myself, but does anybody actually believe that BOG does not come with quite a few contradictions to the already established information from DB within a short period of time? Does it not look like some things should've been (better) explained? They're not exactly good things, are they (I'm asking, because this is supposedly subjective)? So when one brings up those not exactly good things as their reasoning for not liking them (or the whole movie), why jump to defend the movie? If you think the points I've brought about BOG do not qualify as enough to dislike the movie, them by all means feel free to point out how those points being valid or not is not subjective.

So, back to my initial point: logically, which is more likely (because I consider one way, way more likely than the other):

• That a person who likes BOG defends it because:
  
  • In their opinion, the good things about it outweight the bad ones
  • They aren't invested in analyzing DB as much to see what's wrong with BOG (yes, I believe DB needs analyzing to be able to distinguish the original DB and BOG as DB)
  • They like DB so much that they can't properly judge BOG
  • They don't find the bad things important enough
• That people who don't like BOG:
  • See that something is not right, and in many cases those "something" match with the other BOG dislikers and even likers', showing that not just a single person has the same idea about DB and suggesting that that may be exactly what DB tried to portray?

Now what's the point of this? Providing basis for the idea that those who like something tend to defend it due to not very "real" reasons and those who don't like something actually have "real" reasons.

Toriyama not having an editor is my explanation. I'm certain that BOG would've been different had he had one. Would it have been better? I do believe so. After all, he did have an editor during the manga serialization, and I love the manga.

[rereboy]

I don't think you really have a point, hlev. A fan might agree that inconsistencies and plotholes truly exist in BOG and still like it and think its very Dragon Ball. In fact, the same fan might even point out to you that he believes that there's also plotholes and inconsistencies in the manga and he still likes it. So, why wouldn't he defend it?

Or he might just not agree with you that those inconsistencies and plotholes exist. You just have to look at some of the discussions regarding plotholes and inconsistencies in the forum and you will notice that there's plenty of debate on what is or should be considered a plothole / inconsistency and where they actually exist. There's a great deal of subjectivity even in that.

[VegettoEX]

Yes, liking things means you're still able to like things even if you dislike something about it. This is possible. This is hugely possible. This is more than likely.

I highly doubt there is anything that anyone likes that they find absolutely zero faults within. You're not a delusional psychopath if you enjoy something in spite of any faults you may personally find within it.

Art means different things to different people. This is what makes it art, and is what makes us human.

This is not a conversation anymore. This is a disaster, you're unable to converse about it, and it's over. Your account will be suspended indefinitely or permanently, depending on the infraction, for any more of this. I'm done. Fully 100% over and done the end why have I even allowed it this far.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

DB is Toriyama + editor.
BOG is Toriyama.

Not to continiue the debate you had with the others, and not addressing only to you, but doesn't the Toei stuff fill the "editor" part?

[JulieYBM]

[*]Toriyama writes story, does preliminary designs.
[*]Producer and director approve story and design elements, send story to be written into a script.
[*]Story is written into a formal script.
[*]Director either storyboards the script himself or asks others to help him, he approves their storyboards.
[*]Meanwhile, a character designer adapts the original sketches from Toriyama into models that can be used for animation.
[*]Key animators are assigned cuts (shots) of the storyboard to turn into layouts, shots are assigned by the director/production coordinator/animation supervisor's knowledge of the key animator's skill. Difficult shots that use a lot of in-between cels are assigned only to talented key animators. Layouts are approved by the director and chief animation supervisor and their fellow animation supervisors.
[*]Layouts are given to the background department to begin creating the backgrounds.
[*]Key animators begin drawing the key frames (the most important frames of each movement). They use their layouts as references, their artistic sense and their sense of timing (where each drawing should appear on the timeline) to create interesting movement.
[*]Animation supervisor checks key frames for poor art of timing. He will apply fixes their self or try to help the key animation understand what he did wrong.
[*]Director and chief animation supervisor give thumbs up on the key frames or will ask for changes.
[*]Finished key frames are assigned to in-between animators to use as reference/tracing to help create the allotted number of in-between drawings.
[*]The in-between checker...checks the in-between drawings.
[*]When tweens are finished the finished animation is sent off to be scanned into a computer.
[*]The sheets of animation have their lines digitally traced.
[*]The animation is colored on computer.
[*]A preliminary master (rough storyboards, layouts, key animation) are used for the voice actors to record dialogue to.
[*]Rough sound effect tracks are created, sometimes based off of notes from the storyboard if animation is not finished.

Toriyama isn't very involved at the end of the day. The movie belongs to more than one person.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Yes, liking things means you're still able to like things even if you dislike something about it. This is possible. This is hugely possible. This is more than likely.

Heck, I tend to find that the more I like something, the more I poke fun at/passionately discuss it's issues.

[Friezacooler]

Yep you are the only one that hates all this new movies, nah jk that movie with vegeta's brother was utter crap, battle of gods was a step up from there put still the action had hits strange originality but at the same time was a ripp off from multiple other DBZ sources. Specially the fight between Goku and Bills/Beerus, It remainded me of movie 2 where Krillin, Gohan and Piccolo are doing the same action as the BOG movie.

[hleV]

DB is Toriyama + editor.
BOG is Toriyama.

Not to continiue the debate you had with the others, and not addressing only to you, but doesn't the Toei stuff fill the "editor" part?

I don't think BOG ended up exactly how Toriyama envisioned, so a Toriyama-drawn BOG manga could've looked somewhat different (Vegeta wouldn't have looked unlike himself during the bingo song?). But that's about it. The story he wrote was taken as is and incorporated into anime, he had all the freedom in the world to write BOG the way he wanted and there's not much indication that someone supervised and contributed as editor during the time Toriyama was coming up with the story, which was essential during DB serialization.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I don't think BOG ended up exactly how Toriyama envisioned, so a Toriyama-drawn BOG manga could've looked somewhat different (Vegeta wouldn't have looked unlike himself during the bingo song?).

While I agree that a completely Toriyama done Battle of Gods (as in one that he had crafted from the ground up, rather than having to take the Super Saiyan God/God of Destruction concepts already there - though granted, if we go that far into what if territory, there's no telling if the new movie would have been 'Battle of Gods' or something else entirely in the first place), there's no precedence to determine whether or not Vegeta would have done exactly what he did in the movie or not.

This is a post-series Vegeta, something that we've never really seen barring GT (yes, there's that last chapter or two, but there's not enough there to go on either). This is a much, much more mellowed out Vegeta, a Vegeta that we've not seen confronted with someone so powerful that they took Goku out with a flick. Not to mention that this is a Vegeta who has already admitted that Goku is better than him. So faced with someone that took out the 'better' Goku so easily, Vegeta very well be willing to act very humble and, yes, even an idiot, it it means not meeting the same fate as Goku, or worse, and leaving his friends and family to do the same. There is absolutely nothing in the manga to suggest that Vegeta wouldn't be capable of this.

[Attitudefan]

For me, it's really hard to accept and forgive Vegeta so easily. While the reader is manipulated into sympathizing with Vegeta, I can't. He's a serial killer and he's been shown to cast away loved ones, those he grew up with. If given the chance, Vegeta would throw away Bulma and even Goku. It's how his brain works and he is quite typically the archetype of a sociopath.

Someone can't change that much to be a different person when he has been proven to have those tendencies. He can try to fight them but it would be an internal conflict he would lose. That would also make for a great film too! Vegeta's moral philosophy is none. Nappa and his own father, people he grew up with, hell, even Freeza, he cast away when the opportunity was positive for him. That's typically sociopathic. Nothing indicates he still wouldn't do it even if he "mellowed out".

It's just a time of peace where it wouldn't benefit him to toss Bulma and friends. But when he could he would, see Majin Vegeta, same scenario. When things got rough for him, he tossed it away for his personal gain.


Post Cell Vegeta is exactly the same as post Buu Vegeta. Both in a position where he is out done and has to admit defeat. He maintains having a family since it helps him, such as a place to train. But once the opportunity arose, when things of peace feel apart, his sociopathic tendencies arose and he tossed his family like Nappa and his father.

This is why I believe Toriyama hates Vegeta and always gives him no redeeming victory because Vegeta is a despicable living being.

[hleV]

While I agree that a completely Toriyama done Battle of Gods (as in one that he had crafted from the ground up, rather than having to take the Super Saiyan God/God of Destruction concepts already there - though granted, if we go that far into what if territory, there's no telling if the new movie would have been 'Battle of Gods' or something else entirely in the first place), there's no precedence to determine whether or not Vegeta would have done exactly what he did in the movie or not.

I don't doubt that Vegeta would've done the bingo dance/song, I just don't think it would've looked exactly liked it did had Toriyama drawn it himself. I imagine Vegeta looking way more annoyed by what he's doing and not doing those ridiculous face expressions which in the original DB he indicated to not really have.

This is why I believe Toriyama hates Vegeta and always gives him no redeeming victory because Vegeta is a despicable living being.

I got the impression that Toriyama disliked the ol' bad(ass) Vegeta so he remade him to something he now actually likes. People not really caring all that much may find what he's done in BOG humorous, but having your liked character ridiculed and changed to something he wasn't before and never been suggested to become is not exactly what I find funny.

[Attitudefan]

Vegeta does get labeled bad ass but I'd say that's incorrect. He's not bad ass, bad asses aren't pos like Vegeta. A bad ass is a Stone Cold character type, not a maniacal murderer and does things for his own personal gain. That's a pos. A bad ass goes out of his way to kick ass, many times to say "eff you" to the man or take out someone who probably deserves it.

[dae428]

For me, it's really hard to accept and forgive Vegeta so easily. While the reader is manipulated into sympathizing with Vegeta, I can't. He's a serial killer and he's been shown to cast away loved ones, those he grew up with. If given the chance, Vegeta would throw away Bulma and even Goku. It's how his brain works and he is quite typically the archetype of a sociopath.
...
Post Cell Vegeta is exactly the same as post Buu Vegeta. Both in a position where he is out done and has to admit defeat. He maintains having a family since it helps him, such as a place to train. But once the opportunity arose, when things of peace feel apart, his sociopathic tendencies arose and he tossed his family like Nappa and his father.

I can't say I quite agree with you there. To me when Vegeta was first introduced he never really had anyone he cared about. Nappa was expendable and his dad was well... there I guess.... well probably not.. The Saiyans were a group of people who lived to fight and thus most never really took the time to form any families of the sort. For Vegeta, being of an extremely high class heritage this was only exemplified. This is a guy who was alone for most of his life in an environment where the strong survive and the weak perish (cough cough Raditz). But the thing is, after a long time on Earth where he only originally chose to stay on because it benefited him, he found himself caring for his wife/lover/servant woman Bulma and his son Trunks. Sure he's a selfish prick and no doubt he's always going to be a selfish prick because that's who he is. But the thing is, he now cares for some of the people around him, even if he doesn't want to accept it. Eventually he finds himself influenced by the people around him and mellows out a bit to the point that he's no longer a crazy psycho who would happily kill.