Question about FUNi's masters
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- eledoremassis02
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Question about FUNi's masters
Just noticed the Orange Brick (from different masters) shot and the Pioneer/Rock the Dragon set has this same mark. Could they of had the same masters (though the pioneer ones were said to be from digibetas)?
Is this somthing that occurs in other broadcasts (Japan, eslewhere, 4:3 ultimate uncuts)
Is this somthing that occurs in other broadcasts (Japan, eslewhere, 4:3 ultimate uncuts)
- djkalteraphine
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
IIRC, everything Funi has put out, apart from their import release of the Dragon Box Z, has been from the original masters purchased from Toei animation back when Gen Fukunaga first had the crazy scheme in his brain to bring the show to American shores. Their "remastering" processes can only do so much, since they're automated. Unless they spent a ridiculous amount of money actually fixing things frame-by-frame, or Toei miraculously gave them the real masters (I've heard they're notoriously bad about this to everyone), no new release is going to contain anything remarkably better than what we first saw in the '90s. It can look better, sure, but it'll always be a neutered product.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
That would make sense. I coulda sword some reputable people on here said the original was digibeta and they got new masters for the Orange Bricks. Do the blurays have this mark too? (It's when the nameks come to fight frieza)djkalteraphine wrote:IIRC, everything Funi has put out, apart from their import release of the Dragon Box Z, has been from the original masters purchased from Toei animation back when Gen Fukunaga first had the crazy scheme in his brain to bring the show to American shores. Their "remastering" processes can only do so much, since they're automated. Unless they spent a ridiculous amount of money actually fixing things frame-by-frame, or Toei miraculously gave them the real masters (I've heard they're notoriously bad about this to everyone), no new release is going to contain anything remarkably better than what we first saw in the '90s. It can look better, sure, but it'll always be a neutered product.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
They very well could have, and I could be remembering wrong. Though if they are two different masters, they both have the exact same color flaws.eledoremassis02 wrote:That would make sense. I coulda sword some reputable people on here said the original was digibeta and they got new masters for the Orange Bricks. Do the blurays have this mark too? (It's when the nameks come to fight Freeza)djkalteraphine wrote:IIRC, everything Funi has put out, apart from their import release of the Dragon Box Z, has been from the original masters purchased from Toei animation back when Gen Fukunaga first had the crazy scheme in his brain to bring the show to American shores. Their "remastering" processes can only do so much, since they're automated. Unless they spent a ridiculous amount of money actually fixing things frame-by-frame, or Toei miraculously gave them the real masters (I've heard they're notoriously bad about this to everyone), no new release is going to contain anything remarkably better than what we first saw in the '90s. It can look better, sure, but it'll always be a neutered product.
Japanese Broadcast/Dragon Box
Orange Brick (taken from Hulu, so the resolution is bigger than it'd be on DVD, sorry)
American TV broadcast from the late 90s
Notice how the colors are fundamentally different in the Japanese Broadcast, while the Brick is mostly just a cropped and lightened version of the original American broadcast from the 90s.
For comparison's sake, here's Kai (bluray, uncropped)
Notice that Kai has the same color palette as the Japanese Broadcast - this palette should be taken as the "true" colors of DBZ, colors we were denied in the US unless you watched the Japanese Raw broadcast on International Channel or the Latin American broadcast on Univision.
Re: Question about FUNi's masters
No, the Dragon Box and Kai are not the 'true colours' nor do they match the Japanese broadcast. The Dragon Boxes have significant colour shift due to aging film so you can't label it as 'Japanese Broadcast'. Kai has its own colour palette that they decided on themselves to make the show more 'modern', too. They even mentioned they were going to fix the sky prior to broadcast but never actually did, so don't use that as a measurement for anything.djkalteraphine wrote: Notice that Kai has the same color palette as the Japanese Broadcast - this palette should be taken as the "true" colors of DBZ, colors we were denied in the US unless you watched the Japanese Raw broadcast on International Channel or the Latin American broadcast on Univision.
Here's some shots from the actual Japanese broadcast:
Spoiler:
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
Hey man, no reason to immediately jump down my throat.
Also, yelling at me isn't really the topic, though it can be so gratifying to know a thing when someone else doesn't.
While I'm not saying you're wrong, that seems a bit like hearing hooves and calling it a zebra. Why go through the trouble of recoloring something if you're going to recolor it wrong? Not that Toei hasn't done more baffling things.AjayLikesGaming wrote:No, the Dragon Box and Kai are not the 'true colours' nor do they match the Japanese broadcast. The Dragon Boxes have significant colour shift due to aging film so you can't label it as 'Japanese Broadcast'. Kai has its own colour palette that they decided on themselves to make the show more 'modern', too. They even mentioned they were going to fix the sky prior to broadcast but never actually did, so don't use that as a measurement for anything.
It's from some old .rmv that we taken from the old Saban era airings. I assure you I've not 'tampered with any evidence'. What you're likely seeing is the compression from that dinosaur file type. Turn it down about 75%.AjayLikesGaming wrote:I'm interested to know what the source is on that US VHS broadcast tape. It looks like the colours have been tampered with.
Also, yelling at me isn't really the topic, though it can be so gratifying to know a thing when someone else doesn't.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
I asked the same thing when I saw that the Kai broadcast of the Buu arc now has a green tint. I don't know why Toei suddenly felt like mimicking the style of the Wachowski brothers, but they did. Then again, as it has been mentioned elsewhere, in Japan, the TV show was created mainly to help sell toys. That's why only a limited number of Dragon Boxes were sold. Toei kind of approached it with the attitude of, "Why do you want the show? It's just the show." Over here, it's different. Over here, the show itself is the main product. Unfortunately, the creators don't hold the same view, and for that reason have not taken the greatest care of the original materials (visual and audio) than they otherwise might have.djkalteraphine wrote:While I'm not saying you're wrong, that seems a bit like hearing hooves and calling it a zebra. Why go through the trouble of recoloring something if you're going to recolor it wrong?AjayLikesGaming wrote:No, the Dragon Box and Kai are not the 'true colours' nor do they match the Japanese broadcast. The Dragon Boxes have significant colour shift due to aging film so you can't label it as 'Japanese Broadcast'. Kai has its own colour palette that they decided on themselves to make the show more 'modern', too. They even mentioned they were going to fix the sky prior to broadcast but never actually did, so don't use that as a measurement for anything.
In any event, the comparison that AjayLikesGaming has provided is an example of why I've always felt the Dragon Boxes, while not bad, are rather overrated. The Buu arc of Kai has a green tint, the Dragon Boxes have a red tint. It's highly unlikely that we're ever going to get a home video release with colors that match the original Japanese broadcast.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
Re: Question about FUNi's masters
And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
Well, because that's how the show was seen, and it wouldn't have been seen unless Toei intended for it to be seen that way.Bardo117 wrote:And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
Not to mention that the broadcast audio sounds better than any home video release, and the TV broadcast has colors that are far closer to the colors of the original animation cells than the Dragon Boxes.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
Re: Question about FUNi's masters
Whoah, whoah, whoah. I wasn't yelling or accusing you of tampering with evidence. I was just pointing out some errors and questioning where the screenshot came from as it looked like the colours were off. There's no need to take my post so personally nor tell me to 'turn it down about 75%'. Beyond confused. If I've come across poorly over text then I can only apologise. Furthest thing from my intentions, dude.
Anyway, that peculiar misunderstanding aside:
Toei didn't recolour the Dragon Boxes, that's an unfortunate issue. It's why we have threads like this - http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=19448
Unless you're referring to their efforts with Kai? There's two sides to that, really. The first one I already mentioned - they seemingly wanted a unique colour palette to fall more in line with modern Dragon Ball. Secondly, it would appear they looked to the original animation cels as a way to determine how to colour correct:
The issue with this is that it doesn't take into account the intended output once it was photographed. Different film stock produces varying colour outputs, as well as being void of any of the intended post-process direction. Considering they were using cheap 16mm film for this show, the colour shifts would be far more drastic, and the cels would likely need to compensate for this.
If we compare the earlier skies to the ones found in the later episodes, there's only major discrepancies in the DBOX and Kai footage. In the original broadcast, they match perfectly.
Kai:
What are the chances of them suddenly changing the entire colour of the earth's sky?
It's already been mentioned, but Dragon Ball is a real mess when it comes to consistent colour on home releases. The original broadcast is very consistent from start to finish in its colour choices. FUNi's level sets are probably the closest we've come to seeing it as intended. Unfortunately, their masters aren't first generation, so they're lacking a lot of black detail that was originally there.
Anyway, that peculiar misunderstanding aside:
Toei didn't recolour the Dragon Boxes, that's an unfortunate issue. It's why we have threads like this - http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=19448
Unless you're referring to their efforts with Kai? There's two sides to that, really. The first one I already mentioned - they seemingly wanted a unique colour palette to fall more in line with modern Dragon Ball. Secondly, it would appear they looked to the original animation cels as a way to determine how to colour correct:
The issue with this is that it doesn't take into account the intended output once it was photographed. Different film stock produces varying colour outputs, as well as being void of any of the intended post-process direction. Considering they were using cheap 16mm film for this show, the colour shifts would be far more drastic, and the cels would likely need to compensate for this.
If we compare the earlier skies to the ones found in the later episodes, there's only major discrepancies in the DBOX and Kai footage. In the original broadcast, they match perfectly.
Kai:
Spoiler:
It's already been mentioned, but Dragon Ball is a real mess when it comes to consistent colour on home releases. The original broadcast is very consistent from start to finish in its colour choices. FUNi's level sets are probably the closest we've come to seeing it as intended. Unfortunately, their masters aren't first generation, so they're lacking a lot of black detail that was originally there.
Last edited by Ajay on Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
TheBlackPaladin wrote:Well, because that's how the show was seen, and it wouldn't have been seen unless Toei intended for it to be seen that way.Bardo117 wrote:And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
Not to mention that the broadcast audio sounds better than any home video release, and the TV broadcast has colors that are far closer to the colors of the original animation cells than the Dragon Boxes.
That's not necessarily true, what if they were just doing the best with what they had? Or what if nobody really cared for presenting the show in any specific way? I honestly think they showed it however they could just to get the show out there, not much thought must of been given into the colors or presentation, just as long as it shows and there's no major problems they'll be fine.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
FUNi used digibeta tapes before the Orange Bricks, where they used a copy of 16mm film that they bought from Toei.
Therefore, it's probably a safe bet that they aren't the same masters, and the damage is from the original film, prior to the Dragon Box cleanup.
Therefore, it's probably a safe bet that they aren't the same masters, and the damage is from the original film, prior to the Dragon Box cleanup.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
I just checked one of my old fansub episodes copied from TVB and it's missing those marks on Raditz...hmmm
Does anyone else have this episode from sources outside FUNi?
Kei, can you help us figure this out?!! If KEI CAN'T HELP US WHO CAN?!
Also, Unless FUNi changed the contrast for the DVDs. Here's a comparison of the DVD and a VHS copy. The VHS looks a lot like Rock the Dragon
Does anyone else have this episode from sources outside FUNi?
Kei, can you help us figure this out?!! If KEI CAN'T HELP US WHO CAN?!
Also, Unless FUNi changed the contrast for the DVDs. Here's a comparison of the DVD and a VHS copy. The VHS looks a lot like Rock the Dragon
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters
Note: Nothing in this post is related to the topic. You can skip it if you want.
I think that Bardo117 just proved why the original may not always be the best even if it's the intended viewing style. Sometimes a different version is better (e.x. music, coloring, etc.). Similar thing with Yu-Gi-Oh! The Movie (A.K.A. Pyramid of Light back in 2004). It was made in the U.S. but in Japan they changed a few things and even though it wasn't the original, I preferred Japan's version.TheBlackPaladin wrote:Well, because that's how the show was seen, and it wouldn't have been seen unless Toei intended for it to be seen that way.Bardo117 wrote:And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
Not to mention that the broadcast audio sounds better than any home video release, and the TV broadcast has colors that are far closer to the colors of the original animation cells than the Dragon Boxes.
Frieza's face in that picture is wonderful. It made me chuckle.eledoremassis02 wrote:I just checked one of my old fansub episodes copied from TVB and it's missing those marks on Raditz...hmmm
Does anyone else have this episode from sources outside FUNi?
Kei, can you help us figure this out?!! If KEI CAN'T HELP US WHO CAN?!
Also, Unless FUNi changed the contrast for the DVDs. Here's a comparison of the DVD and a VHS copy. The VHS looks a lot like Rock the Dragon