Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

[Bacon Skittles]

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[TheDevilsCorpse]

Your math is off regardless of which approach you take.

Anyway, the forms are officially multipliers. There should be no addition in your equations. So if a character's base is 100, then:

Base: 100
Super Saiyan: 5,000
Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
Super Saiyan 3: 40,000
Ozaru: 1,000
Super Ozaru: 50,000

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit, so it should be greater than Super Saiyan 2.

[sintzu]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit.

Like what Old Kai did for Gohan ?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nah, Old Kaioshin brought Gohan faa~~aar beyond his limits, Super Saiyan 4 brings the user to their limits.

Old Kaioshin's ritual > SS4

[Dayspring]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit.

Like what Old Kai did for Gohan ?

Yes and no. It's like how the Choshinsui did that, how Saichoru did that, how SSJ did that and how SSJ3 did that. New limits get set once the previous limit was reached.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit, so it should be greater than Super Saiyan 2.

You can't actually say that with absolute certainty. It has been stated to draw out potential to it's limit, but does that really mean anything? Super Saiyan 3's entry in Daizenshu #7 said the exact same thing, and that "limit" turned out to be x400 with more power still available to latter transformations.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But we never got a different multiplier or any sort, the only thing telling us about the power boost is a guidebook. Nothing suggesting otherwise so no reason to ignore it.

A potential unlock also makes sense because of two reasons:

1.) The SS4 boost seems to get lower and lower as GT goes on, since Goku's base is constantly increasing as his potential stays the same.
2.) Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base, yet Vegeta's SS4 matched surpassed limits SS4 Goku

[ekrolo2]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit, so it should be greater than Super Saiyan 2.

You can't actually say that with absolute certainty. It has been stated to draw out potential to it's limit, but does that really mean anything? Super Saiyan 3's entry in Daizenshu #7 said the exact same thing, and that "limit" turned out to be x400 with more power still available to latter transformations.

I think the difference is, is that SSJ3 brings out a persons power to their natural bodies limits while SSJ4 gives them an entirely new, superior body with its own limits already pushed to the edge without the need for further training.

[ZazamPow]

There are a LOT of ways you can go with this. Does Super Saiyan 4 even need Super Saiyan 2 and 3 unlocked in order to achieve? Or could a Super Saiyan who goes Great Ape achieve it automatically? Most people subscribe to the idea that Super Saiyan 4 isn't even Super Saiyan 4, it's another type of transformation all together. It really depends on which direction you take it.

I believe that no matter what, Golden Oozaru needs to be 10x of something since Oozaru is 10x base. The question is, what is that something? It could be that Golden Oozaru is 10 times a Super Saiyan 3, in which case it would be:

Base = 100
Oozaru x10 base = 1,000
SSJ x50 base = 5,000
SSJ2 x2 of Super Saiyan (or x100 base) = 10,000
SSJ3 x4 of Super Saiyan 2 (or x400 base) = 40,000
Golden Oozaru x10 of Super Saiyan 3 (or x4,000 of base) = 400,000
SSJ4 = controlled Golden Oozaru

OR it could be that you don't even need SSJ2 and 3, they were just powered up forms of SSJ1 since the Saiyans didn't have their tails and couldn't achieve the TRUE next stage. In which case, SSJ4 would only be 10x SSJ1, but that would still be higher than SSJ2 and 3.

Base = 100
Oozaru x10 base = 1,000
SSJ x50 base = 5,000
SSJ2 x2 of Super Saiyan (or x100 base) = 10,000
SSJ3 x4 of Super Saiyan 2 (or x400 base) = 40,000
Golden Oozaru x10 of Super Saiyan (or x500 of base) = 50,000
SSJ4 = controlled Golden Oozaru

Either way works, SSJ4 ends up stronger than all the previous forms, but the amount of how much stronger changes a lot. Either way makes sense, IMO, it depends on how you prefer it. There are certain constants that need to be there; Oozaru is a 10x multiplier of your previous form, as in if you're a Super Saiyan, it would be 10x that. And SSJ4 is a controlled Golden Oozaru. The question is, do you want SSJ4 to be its own thing, or is it actually a Super Saiyan 4 coming after 3 and the appearance only changes so drastically by coincidence?

[Hitiro]

But we never got a different multiplier or any sort, the only thing telling us about the power boost is a guidebook, which (I'm pretty sure) directly comes from the creators of the series. Nothing suggesting otherwise so no reason to ignore it.

A potential unlock also makes sense because of two reasons:

1.) The SS4 boost seems to get lower and lower as GT goes on, since Goku's base is constantly increasing as his potential stays the same.
2.) Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base, yet Vegeta's SS4 matched surpassed limits SS4 Goku

There are some problems with these statements.

1) We have no indication that Goku's base got stronger over the course of the series. While it may have gotten stronger there is no actual proof that it did unless you want to believe that the whole "Base Goku > Omega Shenron > SSJ4 Goku" thing is proof. But if that were the case why even transform into the form in the first place? It's clearly just a power inconsistency.

2) Can you prove Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base? Is it stated anywhere? As far as I'm aware there are no examples for comparison. The only example we could possibly use for comparison is against Super 17 and Vegeta was beaten up before he even turned SSJ whereas Goku started out as a SSJ. Goku got one blow in as a SSJ and never actually hit Super 17 afterwards, unless you count the blasts that Super 17 took on purpose to get even more powerful, which I don't.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

1) We have no indication that Goku's base got stronger over the course of the series. While it may have gotten stronger there is no actual proof that it did unless you want to believe that the whole "Base Goku > Omega Shenron > SSJ4 Goku" thing is proof. But if that were the case why even transform into the form in the first place? It's clearly just a power inconsistency.

SS Goku in the Super 17 arc outperforms Super Uub against Super #17, in the previous arc, Super Uub was stronger than SS3 Goku.

SS Goku (Super 17) > Super Uub > SS3 Goku (Baby arc)

Also, the Super 17 arc took place a few months after the Baby arc, it's ludicrous to think Goku would not train at least a little bit, that's all he ever does.

2) Can you prove Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base? Is it stated anywhere? As far as I'm aware there are no examples for comparison. The only example we could possibly use for comparison is against Super 17 and Vegeta was beaten up before he even turned SSJ whereas Goku started out as a SSJ. Goku got one blow in as a SSJ and never actually hit Super 17 afterwards, unless you count the blasts that Super 17 took on purpose to get even more powerful, which I don't.

Vegeta was a SS/SS2 against Super 17, and Goku in SS outperformed him. And which blast are you talking about? The Kamehameha SS Goku shot at Super 17? 17 pretty much had an orgasm over that Kamehameha, and it shows his muscles increase, why wouldn't he be getting more powerful?

Also, Vegeta's SS4 matched surpassed limits SS4 Goku, a Goku who was powered up, so assuming their base is the same, Vegeta's regular SS4 matched a powered up version of Goku's SS4.


So no. I'm not seeing any problems with these statements.