#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

NeoKING
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:55 pm

#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by NeoKING » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:47 pm

I dunno about anyone else, but I think New Akira's awesome. He doesn't have to deal with deadlines or anything like that, so he's creativity is being fleshed out more than ever before. Sure, New Akira throws away his old ideas by having things like SSJ Vegeta "surpassing Goku" and SSJ God being the new thing, but his characters like Beerus and Whis are really well-developed. He also does a great job of expanding the DB universe which we've come to known for 10+ years now.

What do you guys think about New Akira?

User avatar
GeeRod
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:27 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by GeeRod » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:51 pm

I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
English is not my main language. Sorry if I make a mistake.

User avatar
Mystic Tien
Regular
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Mystic Tien » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:59 pm

NeoKING wrote:I dunno about anyone else, but I think New Akira's awesome. He doesn't have to deal with deadlines or anything like that, so he's creativity is being fleshed out more than ever before. Sure, New Akira throws away his old ideas by having things like SSJ Vegeta "surpassing Goku" and SSJ God being the new thing, but his characters like Beerus and Whis are really well-developed. He also does a great job of expanding the DB universe which we've come to known for 10+ years now.

What do you guys think about New Akira?
We basically know nothing about Whis, how is he well-developed? With Beerus I agree.

He didn't expand the universe in FnF at all. We know nothing about Frieza yet, we know nothing about Whis yet, and we know nothing about what the heck is Blue SSJ God, and while there are theories as for why it looks like it does now, nothing specific was explained in a movie besides "SSJ with SSJ God energy" or something in that line.
GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
Dragon Ball Z. Wrath of The Dragon.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:00 pm

New Akira needs to stop writing the new movies with a two year release schedule as if it's a weekly manga, I mean Goku & Vegeta's glorified training segment getting a whole movie focused on it on top of the most half-assed villain resurrection I've seen in a while is a hhhhuuugggggeeeeee piss take. Either put out smaller length films more frequently or get your head out of your ass and make the current format movies be worth a damn (no, training and transformation getting ISN'T DEVELOPMENT! Its the standard for every relevant DB arc).

I don't care if this pisses people off because it's "NOT LIEK DUR CLASSICCZZ MAN GUH!" adapt to the format you're making material in or just do another manga.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
GeeRod
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:27 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by GeeRod » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:09 pm

Mystic Tien wrote: We basically know nothing about Whis, how is he well-developed? With Beerus I agree.

He didn't expand the universe in FnF at all. We know nothing about Freeza yet, we know nothing about Whis yet, and we know nothing about what the heck is Blue SSJ God, and while there are theories as for why it looks like it does now, nothing specific was explained in a movie besides "SSJ with SSJ God energy" or something in that line.
GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
Mystic Tien wrote:Dragon Ball Z. Wrath of The Dragon.
Dragon Ball GT. Dragon Ball Z: Bio Broly. Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming. Bardock OVA. Dragon Ball Z: Return of Cooler. You want more?
English is not my main language. Sorry if I make a mistake.

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 15191
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:15 pm

I'm happy that Toriyama is back to the series since fans wanted him to return for years. I take 2008 Jump Special, BOG and ROF over most of the garbage that Toei did on their own without Toriyama's help. Toei can't get Dragon Ball right 90% of the time, it's rare when they do in my opinion.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:29 pm

GeeRod wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote: We basically know nothing about Whis, how is he well-developed? With Beerus I agree.

He didn't expand the universe in FnF at all. We know nothing about Freeza yet, we know nothing about Whis yet, and we know nothing about what the heck is Blue SSJ God, and while there are theories as for why it looks like it does now, nothing specific was explained in a movie besides "SSJ with SSJ God energy" or something in that line.
GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:Dragon Ball Z. Wrath of The Dragon.
Dragon Ball GT. Dragon Ball Z: Bio Broly. Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming. Bardock OVA. Dragon Ball Z: Return of Cooler. You want more?
The Buu Saga is worse than all of these combined. While GT and the movies are completely harmless in the grand scheme of things (especially since there's more good Toei films than bad ones). The Buu Saga, however, pretty much exemplifies everything that went wrong with DB and then some. Horribly uninteresting new villains, new characters being either boring as f*ck like the new Kais or being annoying to the point of wanting to bash your face in like Goten & Trunks AKA the Spawnlings. The whole arc blows its load when Vegeta blows himself up and never, not once, even reaches a tenth of that moments excitement afterward with constant one-upping happening just to drag the bloody thing out to the point where Toriyama himself got sick of it and drawing any action manga EVER again. Don't even get me started on DB-.

Really if anyone had any common sense they'd either force Toriyama to adapt to modern storytelling or just get someone new to do it. American Comics have done just fine with their long running heroes getting fresh blood into the creative process and since Toriyama is gonna inevitably die or permanently retire one day, better to just get it done sooner rather than later.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:45 pm

Personally, I love the fact that Toriyama is just contributing to franchise again. Some of it has been great (Jaco, BOG, Beerus, Whis, SSJ God), decent (Resurrection F, Golden Freeza) and pretty forgettable (Dragon Ball Minus, Gine). But just the fact that the creator of Dragon Ball is taking the helm of the franchise, after so many years absent from Dragon Ball... it's pretty surreal. Especially consider he turned down a truck load of money from Bandai to create a new series a few years back.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10352
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:52 pm

I think we should stop addressing the man as if we were on a first name basis with him.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:56 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:I think we should stop addressing the man as if we were on a first name basis with him.
This. We are not close friends with Toriyama and shouldn't acting as if we are.

User avatar
Mystic Tien
Regular
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Mystic Tien » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:04 pm

GeeRod wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote: We basically know nothing about Whis, how is he well-developed? With Beerus I agree.

He didn't expand the universe in FnF at all. We know nothing about Freeza yet, we know nothing about Whis yet, and we know nothing about what the heck is Blue SSJ God, and while there are theories as for why it looks like it does now, nothing specific was explained in a movie besides "SSJ with SSJ God energy" or something in that line.
GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:Dragon Ball Z. Wrath of The Dragon.
Dragon Ball GT. Dragon Ball Z: Bio Broly. Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming. Bardock OVA. Dragon Ball Z: Return of Cooler. You want more?
I liked all of them, so I don't mind.

On another hand... Dragon Ball Minus...
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Doctor. » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:12 pm

Hit or miss for me. Battle of Gods was great, Jaco was good. Minus and RF are another story, though. He isn't any more inconsistent now than he was back when Dragon Ball was in serialization.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:14 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
GeeRod wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote: We basically know nothing about Whis, how is he well-developed? With Beerus I agree.

He didn't expand the universe in FnF at all. We know nothing about Freeza yet, we know nothing about Whis yet, and we know nothing about what the heck is Blue SSJ God, and while there are theories as for why it looks like it does now, nothing specific was explained in a movie besides "SSJ with SSJ God energy" or something in that line.
GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:Dragon Ball Z. Wrath of The Dragon.
Dragon Ball GT. Dragon Ball Z: Bio Broly. Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming. Bardock OVA. Dragon Ball Z: Return of Cooler. You want more?
I liked all of them, so I don't mind.

On another hand... Dragon Ball Minus...
Comparing a one shot fifteen page chapter to a 50+ episode series and 30-50 minute animated features is a bit unfair in my opinion. But Dragon Ball minus was pretty underwhelming and could have been much more than it was.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:20 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Comparing a one shot fifteen page chapter to a 50+ episode series and 30-50 minute animated features is a bit unfair in my opinion. But Dragon Ball minus was pretty underwhelming and could have been much more than it was.
See I don't get this, if he really wanted more time to tell his story then couldn't he have gotten more space to tell it? As far as I know no one forced him to make it just over a dozen pages long, it seemed to be of his own volition.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Mystic Tien
Regular
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Mystic Tien » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Comparing a one shot twenty page chapter to a 50+ episode series, and 30-50 minute animated features is a bit unfair in my opinion. But Dragon Ball minus was pretty underwhelming and could have been much more than it was.
I didn't compare it. It is just that DBM made a mess out of the timeline/story, and it is very hard to deduce now what exactly happened and how. GT and any of the movies never actually did (or even tried) to do anything of this sort. I don't even hate/dislike DBM. It is just that I don't see a point in it. Like for what reason was it created? It doesn't add anything new to storyline, all it does - introduces a mother of Goku... Who basically says a few words, and that's all. On the other hand it completely alters everything what we learned from DBZ/Bardock: Father of Goku for no specific reason. So, what I ask is why it was even created? Toriyama could just draw a picture of Gine, like he did with SSJ4 design for example (after witnessing Nakatsuru Katsuyoshi's design of it, used in GT) or like he came up with Broly design... Heck, he could put her in a flashback in FnF! It would make sense for her to be there, while the whole movie is (supposed to be) dedicated to Frieza. Instead we got a little chapter, which isn't consistent with any form of media, even with manga, and doesn't actually bring anything new.
ekrolo2 wrote:
See I don't get this, if he really wanted more time to tell his story then couldn't he have gotten more space to tell it? As far as I know no one forced him to make it just over a dozen pages long, it seemed to be of his own volition.
Exactly! Moreover what stopped him from putting a flashback with Gine in FnF? It would make sense for her to be here.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

User avatar
TheDevilsCorpse
Moderator
Posts: 11378
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:34 am
Contact:

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:24 pm

If he REALLY wanted to make it longer, they probably would have let him. Realistically though, Shueisha likely had an ideal number of pages for the volume so that they would only have to spend so much on the printing and what they would have to charge for the releases, and he was asked to fit the extra chapter within that space.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)

User avatar
Faustus
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:24 pm
Location: New Haven, CT

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Faustus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:27 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:On another hand... Dragon Ball Minus...
People tend to forget that Minus chapter came at the tail-end of the 10-chapter-long Jaco, which was overall quite well-received. Why are people treating a single chapter as though it were a stand-alone product, of equal weight with everything else?

Since I haven't seen and therefore can't yet pronounce a verdict on F, I'd say my feeling is that Toriyama has done overwhelmingly more good than bad. Even if F turns out to be mediocre, taking Battle of Gods and Jaco in consideration, Toriyama can still boast a 50+% success rate with new material.
Last edited by Faustus on Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:29 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:If he REALLY wanted to make it longer, they probably would have let him. Realistically though, Shueisha likely had an ideal number of pages for the volume so that they would only have to spend so much on the printing and what they would have to charge for the releases, and he was asked to fit the extra chapter within that space.
Do you think if Shueisha were more lenient, they would have given Toriyama more page to work with? Because I think a good story could have been told if Dragon Ball Minus got at least 25 pages.

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5156
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:30 pm

NeoKING wrote:I dunno about anyone else, but I think New Akira's awesome. He doesn't have to deal with deadlines or anything like that, so he's creativity is being fleshed out more than ever before. Sure, New Akira throws away his old ideas by having things like SSJ Vegeta "surpassing Goku" and SSJ God being the new thing, but his characters like Beerus and Whis are really well-developed. He also does a great job of expanding the DB universe which we've come to known for 10+ years now.

What do you guys think about New Akira?
I think I miss the old Toriyama.

Thus far, we have:
- Tarble, Vegeta's wimpy brother who's married to a chibi alien thing (I know Toriyama did not make him, but he was still referenced in BoG).
- Rage Boosts are now a thing, so Gohan's hidden power was never exclusive.
- SSJs becoming stronger than SSJ3s by getting angry.
- No more SSJ2s and SSJ3s.
- Gohan lost his mystic state, and is now a PoS character. This is one of the reasons people hated GT too, so... go figure.
- Lame new transformations. One achieved through friendship that makes the user look weaker, and another that replaces an iconic transformation and also makes it look weaker and uglier.
- Power inconsistencies, such as Piccolo being on par with a mook, Master Roshi holding his own against Frieza's men, and Gohan being one-shotted by first form Frieza.
- Villains with pitiful BP being able to catch up to gods in 4 months of off-screen training.
- A complete lack of any sense of threat due to two sets of dragon balls and a character who's not only the strongest in the universe, but can also reverse time.
- Terrible backstories that contradict decent ones that had already been established.
- One movie that is not really any better than a lot of what Toei gave us in the past, and another that seems to follow the exact same formula as those Toei movies people seem to hate on.
- Art nowhere near as good as the stuff he used to make when he was active.

Only good things that have come out of "New Akira" have been Jaco (sans Minus) and Beerus. "New Akira" is honestly not any better or worse than Toei, imo, but I miss Serious Ball Z (e.g. Bardock special, History of Trunks, Wrath of the Dragon, Cell Saga, etc) and I doubt we're ever getting that again with modern day Toriyama.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10283
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:If he REALLY wanted to make it longer, they probably would have let him. Realistically though, Shueisha likely had an ideal number of pages for the volume so that they would only have to spend so much on the printing and what they would have to charge for the releases, and he was asked to fit the extra chapter within that space.
Do you think if Shueisha were more lenient, they would have given Toriyama more page to work with? Because I think a good story could have been told if Dragon Ball Minus got at least 25 pages.
Agree'd. DB- was too short to be anything, I think Toriyama should have just made a gag scene with Beerus and Whis.

Post Reply