I'm confused by the timeline of Movie 12/Fusion Reborn

[rereboy]

Goku put up equal fight against Freeza in his base back on Namek, so i dont see a problem..

Gohans hair is a myth,,we cant base everything on it...

Goku needed Kaioken x20 to match Freeza's 50% power and Freeza still overcame it.

Before Freeza used 50% they had equal fight.

Kaio specifically mentions that he had been using Kaioken before Freeza used his 50%. It just wasn't a Kaioken as big as x20.

[Super Vegetto]

Um,,,some evidence ?

[rereboy]

Um,,,some evidence ?

Check the manga or the anime. One of the guys at Kaio's place (either Yamcha or Tenshinhan) says that Goku can still use Kaioken to turn the tide against Freeza but Kaio corrects them and reveals that he already had been using Kaioken. It hadn't been noticeable but Kaio's statement makes it clear that Goku had been making use of it pretty much all along, meaning that Goku relied on Kaioken to match up against Freeza and as Freeza increased his own power, Goku's Kaioken started to not be enough and not even his Kaioken x20 was able to overcome Freeza's 50%.

[Super Vegetto]

Um,,,some evidence ?

Check the manga or the anime. One of the guys at Kaio's place (either Yamcha or Tenshinhan) says that Goku can still use Kaioken to turn the tide against Freeza but Kaio corrects them and reveals that he already had been using Kaioken. It hadn't been noticeable but Kaio's statement makes it clear that Goku had been making use of it pretty much all along, meaning that Goku relied on Kaioken to match up against Freeza and as Freeza increased his own power, Goku's Kaioken started to not be enough and not even his Kaioken x20 was able to overcome Freeza's 50%.

I remember King kai saying that when Goku was fighting 50% Frieza, not before...

[rereboy]

I remember King kai saying that when Goku was fighting 50% Freeza, not before...

He says that he had been using Kaioken, not that he had just started at that very moment, I believe. The whole point of the scene and the statement was that, despite not having been noticeable for the reader before (even Yamcha and the others hadn't noticed it), Goku had already been using Kaioken.

I remember that the anime even makes this point very clear by making Kaioken noticeable immediately after Kaio states this. This means that Kaioken was already there before Kaio says it, but we just weren't seeing it, meaning that Goku had already been using it, like Kaio stated.

Long story short, Goku could only measure up to Freeza with Kaioken. Even using Kaioken x10, he was losing badly to Freeza's 50% and not even Kaioken x20 overcame Freeza's 50%. Following simple math, the only way Goku could measure up to Freeza without Kaioken would be if Freeza only used about 2.5% of his total power (since a Kaioken x20 doesn't surpass Freeza's 50%, and 2.5 times 20 equals 50).

[Super Vegetto]

I remember King kai saying that when Goku was fighting 50% Freeza, not before...

He says that he had been using Kaioken, not that he had just started at that very moment, I believe. The whole point of the scene and the statement was that, despite not having been noticeable for the reader before (even Yamcha and the others hadn't noticed it), Goku had already been using Kaioken.

I remember that the anime even makes this point very clear by making Kaioken noticeable immediately after Kaio states this. This means that Kaioken was already there before Kaio says it, but we just weren't seeing it, meaning that Goku had already been using it, like Kaio stated.

Long story short, Goku could only measure up to Freeza with Kaioken. Even using Kaioken x10, he was losing badly to Freeza's 50% and not even Kaioken x20 overcame Freeza's 50%. Following simple math, the only way Goku could measure up to Freeza without Kaioken would be if Freeza only used about 2.5% of his total power (since a Kaioken x20 doesn't surpass Freeza's 50%, and 2.5 times 20 equals 50).

Goku without Kaio ken and Frieza before 50% had equal fight and Kaio ken is never used on any Frieza,,exept 50% Frieza...

Btw here are the quotes and scan where Goku started to use Kaio ken...

---Kaio-Ken x10--- [#FR2#GOK#KK10]

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.5
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Yamcha: “Lord Kaio! Goku’s wearing that heavy dougi, right!?”
Kaio: “No…what he’s wearing now is merely durable, and not heavy…”

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

This scan of Kaio ken is Goku vs 50% Frieza and before King kai mentions it...

[rereboy]

Like I said, there was no indication that Goku was using Kaioken (x10) before Kaio mentioned it and yet he was using it.

The way you are interpreting things, Freeza would have to be only using around 2.5% of his power while fighting Goku and Goku not using any form of Kaioken. Then, Freeza would have to decide to jump his power from 2.5% all the way to 50% and only then Goku would choose to use Kaioken, choosing to use x10 right away.

That doesn't make sense to me.

The way things are presented, it seems far more logical that Goku had been using Kaioken to keep up but it just couldn't keep up anymore when Freeza used 50% of his power.

In any case, this discussion is not important for the original point. You stated that Goku put up an equal fight to Freeza in Namek but this is innacurate even if you believe that Goku only used Kaioken when Freeza used 50%. Goku's kaioken x20 doesn't surpass Freeza's 50%, which, mathematically, means that without Kaioken, Goku can only keep up with 2.5% of Freeza's power, which is a minuscule portion of his power. That's not putting up an equal fight no matter how you look at it.

[Super Vegetto]

Like I said, there was no indication that Goku was using Kaioken (x10) before Kaio mentioned it and yet he was using it.

The way you are interpreting things, Freeza would have to be only using around 2.5% of his power while fighting Goku and Goku not using any form of Kaioken. Then, Freeza would have to decide to jump his power from 2.5% all the way to 50% and only then Goku would choose to use Kaioken, choosing to use x10 right away.

That doesn't make sense to me.

The way things are presented, it seems far more logical that Goku had been using Kaioken to keep up but it just couldn't keep up anymore when Freeza used 50% of his power.

In any case, this discussion is not important for the original point. The original point is that Goku can't keep up with Freeza without Kaioken and this is proven by the fact that his kaioken x20 doesn't surpass Freeza's 50%, which means that without Kaioken, Goku can only keep up with 2.5% of Freeza's power, which is a minuscule portion of his power.

Here is one: Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…

Yes that is what i mean,,,Goku's limit of power was 10x at that time, but he decide to push himself to 20x just so that he could destroy him in instant,,not fight like he did with 10x.

Well first there is Piccolo and even King kai says that Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now, not before 50% Frieza...

[rereboy]

You didn't state anything new. Read what I wrote. Even if you believe that Goku didn't use Kaioken until that moment, that means that Freeza only used 2.5% of his power until that moment. That's not Goku being able to put up a fight against Freeza without Kaioken, no matter how you look at it.

[Super Vegetto]

You didn't state anything new. Read what I wrote. Even if you believe that Goku didn't use Kaioken until that moment, that means that Freeza only used 2.5% of his power until that moment. That's not Goku being able to put up a fight against Freeza without Kaioken, no matter how you look at it.

Is there anything contradicting Frieza's power before 50% or you just don't want to accept it ?

[rereboy]

You didn't state anything new. Read what I wrote. Even if you believe that Goku didn't use Kaioken until that moment, that means that Freeza only used 2.5% of his power until that moment. That's not Goku being able to put up a fight against Freeza without Kaioken, no matter how you look at it.

Is there anything contradicting Freeza's power before 50% or you just don't want to accept it ?

Contradicting what? That Freeza only used 2.5% power before using 50%? No, its perfectly possible that he decided to use 2.5% of his power and then jump all the way to 50%. There's no proof that he did or didn't do that since Kaio's line is not THAT specific. I might have been a little inaccurate about the line because I was talking about it from memory but that's it. I didn't ignore what yoy said or tried to argue that what you said was impossible, so I would appreciate it if you didn't make accusations like me not "wanting to accept" something. I had already "accepted" what you said, I just stated that it didn't make much sense to me.

Like I said, I just don't think it makes much sense for things to have played out that way given what Kaio states that Goku was already using Kaioken even though no other indication in the manga showed us that he using Kaioken before Kaio's statement, which means that its perfectly possible, even probable, that there was Kaioken use in scenes where it wasn't noticeable throughout the fight with Freeza.

What we do have proof of is that Goku could only match up to around 2.5% of Freeza's power since his Kaioken x20 didn't surpass Freeza's 50%. And that's not "being able to put up with Freeza" like you said, which was the original point of the discussion. Or isn't that the main point?

[Super Vegetto]

You didn't state anything new. Read what I wrote. Even if you believe that Goku didn't use Kaioken until that moment, that means that Freeza only used 2.5% of his power until that moment. That's not Goku being able to put up a fight against Freeza without Kaioken, no matter how you look at it.

Is there anything contradicting Freeza's power before 50% or you just don't want to accept it ?

Contradicting what? That Freeza only used 2.5% power before using 50%? No, its perfectly possible that he decided to use 2.5% of his power and then jump all the way to 50%. There's no proof that he did or didn't do that. I just don't think it makes much sense for things to have played out that way given what Kaio states that Goku was already using Kaioken even though no other indication in the manga showed us that he using Kaioken before Kaio's statement.

What we have proof of is that Goku could only match up to around 2.5% of Freeza's power since his Kaioken x20 didn't surpass Freeza's 50%. And that's not "being able to put up with Freeza" like you said which was the original point of the discussion.

Here are the scans that indicate Kaio ken 10x before King Kai's statement, but for some reason i think that you will ignore them,,too bad that there is no colored version...

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Just to make this more clear,,,this is how I and I belive many others see it...

He was matching up Frieza's Base power with his Base power,,Frieza decided to not play around and used 50%,,Goku started to use Kaio ken 10x to atleast stand a chance but he couldn't,,his last effort is Kaio ken 20x and even that fails,,,do you get my point now ?

[rereboy]

Here are the scans that indicate Kaio ken 10x before King Kai's statement, but for some reason i think that you will ignore them,,too bad that there is no colored version...

And here's a scan of Goku using the same kind of aura before Freeza uses his 50% power:

Spoiler:

When you are not too busy accusing me of "ignoring" things you will realize that we either assume that all this auras are Kaioken, which means that Goku used Kaioken before Freeza used his 50% power, or that it's impossible to reach the conclusion that they are Kaioken and thus we don't use it as an argument.

Since I don't think its possible to reach the conclusion that they are Kaioken, I don't use it as an argument when I say that Goku used Kaioken before Freeza used his 50% power.

He was matching up Freeza's Base power with his Base power,,Freeza decided to not play around and used 50%,,Goku started to use Kaio ken 10x to atleast stand a chance but he couldn't,,his last effort is Kaio ken 20x and even that fails,,,do you get my point now ?

Like I said earlier: "The way you are interpreting things, Freeza would have to be only using around 2.5% of his power while fighting Goku and Goku not using any form of Kaioken. Then, Freeza would have to decide to jump his power from 2.5% all the way to 50% and only then Goku would choose to use Kaioken, choosing to use x10 right away. That doesn't make sense to me".

As you can tell, I had already understood what you meant. I just don't think it makes much sense.

By the way, for someone who has already accused me of ignoring things twice, you seem determined to ignore that Goku base form could only match around Freeza's 2.5% power, which is the main point of the discussion...

[Super Vegetto]

xD I knew that you would check out the scans and yeah he does have Kaio ken aura. It seams like he started to use Kaio ken to catch up with Frieza and he did managed to catch him which could be why Frieza decided to not let him again. Notice this,,,he didn't use Kaio ken all the time and was putting up an equal fight against Frieza...

So only thing Freeza showed to be superior in is speed (couple of times),,before going 50%. He couldn't damage Goku that much before so why not call it an equal fight when it comes to power alone...

Btw where did you get those 2.5% ?

[rereboy]

xD I knew that you would check out the scans and yeah he does have Kaio ken aura. It seams like he started to use Kaio ken to catch up with Freeza and he did managed to catch him which could be why Freeza decided to not let him again. Notice this,,,he didn't use Kaio ken all the time and was putting up an equal fight against Freeza...

So only thing Freeza showed to be superior in is speed (couple of times),,before going 50%. He couldn't damage Goku that much before so why not call it an equal fight when it comes to power alone...

Btw where did you get those 2.5% ?

Goku's Kaioken x20 is around Freeza's 50% power. We know this because Goku's Kaioken x20 attack matched Freeza's 50% in terms of power, but was unable to surpass it since Freeza was able to dispel the attack without getting hurt. So, they are around the same power.

So, if Goku's Kaioken x20 is around Freeza's 50%, and since Kaioken x20 is Goku's base power times 20, that means that Goku's base power is around 20 times less than Freeza's 50%. And that is around 2.5% Freeza power (50 / 20 = 2.5).

So, "why not call it an equal fight when it comes to power alone"? Because Goku, without Kaioken, can only match up to 2.5% of Freeza's power. Seems pretty obvious to me.

The way you are interpreting things, with Goku not using Kaioken and only using his base power, means that Freeza had to be only using around 2.5% of his power. The way I interpret things, Freeza used more than that before going 50% and Goku used Kaioken to keep up, but no longer could keep up with Freeza's 50%.

Btw, I already explained this more than once...

[Jeff Styles]

The timeline is a what if.Gohan killed Super Buu.Goku and Vegeta are still dead.Goten and Trunks still learn the fusion dance.Gohan go back living a peaceful life.Frieza's power is suppress when he is blow up by base Gohan.Janemba is Kid Buu as ssj3 Goku was able to hold his own against similar to his fight against Kid Buu.

[Super Vegetto]

xD I knew that you would check out the scans and yeah he does have Kaio ken aura. It seams like he started to use Kaio ken to catch up with Freeza and he did managed to catch him which could be why Freeza decided to not let him again. Notice this,,,he didn't use Kaio ken all the time and was putting up an equal fight against Freeza...

So only thing Freeza showed to be superior in is speed (couple of times),,before going 50%. He couldn't damage Goku that much before so why not call it an equal fight when it comes to power alone...

Btw where did you get those 2.5% ?

Goku's Kaioken x20 is around Freeza's 50% power. We know this because Goku's Kaioken x20 attack matched Freeza's 50% in terms of power, but was unable to surpass it since Freeza was able to dispel the attack without getting hurt. So, they are around the same power.

So, if Goku's Kaioken x20 is around Freeza's 50%, and since Kaioken x20 is Goku's base power times 20, that means that Goku's base power is around 20 times less than Freeza's 50%. And that is around 2.5% Freeza power (50 / 20 = 2.5).

So, "why not call it an equal fight when it comes to power alone"? Because Goku, without Kaioken, can only match up to 2.5% of Freeza's power. Seems pretty obvious to me.

The way you are interpreting things, with Goku not using Kaioken and only using his base power, means that Freeza had to be only using around 2.5% of his power. The way I interpret things, Freeza used more than that before going 50% and Goku used Kaioken to keep up, but no longer could keep up with Freeza's 50%.

Btw, I already explained this more than once...

So in your opinion it's Frieza > Goku from the start and Goku used "invisible Kaio ken" but than could no longer keap up when Frieza used 50% ?

[rereboy]

So in your opinion it's Freeza > Goku from the start and Goku used "invisible Kaio ken" but than could no longer keap up when Freeza used 50% ?

Pretty much, even though I would say that he would be using Kaioken without it being noticeable in the artwork, not using "invisible Kaioken", due to the Kaio scene. As I demonstrated, Goku's base power only matches Freeza's 2.5% power, and I see no reason for Freeza to only use that power until he decides to use 50%, and for Goku to not use any Kaioken at all until Freeza is at 50% and then use a big Kaioken (x10). Of course, it's possible that that's what happened but it doesn't make much sense to me.

[Dayspring]

So in your opinion it's Freeza > Goku from the start and Goku used "invisible Kaio ken" but than could no longer keap up when Freeza used 50% ?

Pretty much, even though I would say that he would be using Kaioken without it being noticeable in the artwork, not using "invisible Kaioken", due to the Kaio scene. As I demonstrated, Goku's base power only matches Freeza's 2.5% power, and I see no reason for Freeza to only use that power until he decides to use 50%, and for Goku to not use any Kaioken at all until Freeza is at 50% and then use a big Kaioken (x10). Of course, it's possible that that's what happened but it doesn't make much sense to me.

That's not how Kaioken works, though. Freeza was just not taking the fight seriously at all when he was beneath 50%. Once he uses 50%, he dominates it, so we're shown Goku repeatedly relying on an unknown Kaioken in order to catch up, to no avail. This prompts Kaio's comments of the situation being hopeless. When Tenshinhan claims Goku can still use Kaioken, maybe even up to x10, Kaio explains he's already using it. Tenshinhan and Yamcha are making their comments because they have no idea what's happening on Namek. Kaio is making his in order to fill them in on what we're being shown.

[Darkprince410]

And here's a scan of Goku using the same kind of aura before Freeza uses his 50% power:

Spoiler:

For what it's worth, the full-color version of the manga has that aura as just a normal flight aura, and specifically has Goku's aura when Freeza jumps to 50% as being a Kaiou-ken aura.

Pre-50% Goku

Spoiler:

Post-50% Goku

Spoiler:

Which would fit in line with the notion of him not starting to use the Kaiou-ken until after Freeza hit 50%, which would then mean that Freeza was only skirting around at about 2-3% of his strength beforehand.