Goten's Implication Towards Goku

[Darkprince410]

Piccolo late contradicts his hopes when Gotenks Base can't do shit. He's a horrible Ki sensor and quite clearly makes a lot of bloated mistakes.

As SSJ2FutureGohan pointed out, Piccolo's retraction from his previous statement was in regards to just how powerful Buu ended up being, as it was right after Gotenks punched him in the face, to no effect, that he realized it wouldn't be so easy. Buu hadn't shown anywhere near the extent of his power up to that point, so Piccolo simply didn't know just how powerful Buu really was. That doesn't change though that Piccolo noted a huge battle power increase from Gotenks. As for him making "a lot of bloated mistakes"...no, he really didn't. What was mentioned before is the only one that could be considered a mistake, but even then, it wasn't a mistake about Gotenks' strength increase, so much as not realizing Buu was just that much stronger.

[Hitiro]

The kids needed fusion for Super Buu or any other form of Buu including the fat one. Nothing says the opposite of Super Buu. Based on all said evidence in the current debate at hand, I think it's reasonable to surmise Super Buu is imply the Base point of Ssj3 tier power for the Majin's like the Metamoran is for the kids and Ssj3 is for individual Saiyan users, with the exclusion of Gohan.

The kids had no other option to use fusion. So it isn't fair to say that the kids in SSJ3 equal non-fusion SSJ3 Saiyan's. That's a pretty ridiculous assumption. Both Goten and Trunks demonstrated they had the ability to match the adult Saiyan's in power. Gohan struggled against Goten and Vegeta got hit by Trunks. While they may not be very close to the adults in power they still aren't far off. Even if you assume that the fusion is just adding both battle powers together the fusion should be above an adult Saiyan. To put it in terms of numbers:

Trunks: 10
Goten: 9
Gohan: 14
Vegeta: 15
Gotenks: 10+9 = 19

The kids needed fusion because they only have SSJ. The adults have SSJ2 and SSJ3. So that in and of itself is an unfair comparison. The simple fact is with their fusion they at least rival a SSJ2 just as a simple SSJ. If they didn't Piccolo would have sent them into the RoSaT straight away rather than just have them train outside. If their SSJ rivals a SSJ2 then their SSJ3 is 2x the non-Saiyan's SSJ3 level, based off the Daizenshuu multipliers.

Summarily, Goku's statement about needing to train and train just to defeat someone like Kid Buu infers that Kid Buu should be on a different level of power than Goku Ssj3.

Why? Goku said he could beat Pure Boo at full power. The only reason he didn't beat Pure Boo as a SSJ3 is because SSJ3 eats up a lot of stamina. Hence why when he tried to reach full power he reverted to a base Saiyan. Why does his statement need to mean that Pure Boo must be a different level of power to SSJ3 Goku? All this should really mean is that Goku wants to train to a point in which he will be able to beat Boo without the worry of something like this happening again.

Bear in mind that there is always the distinction made by Goku that neither Gotenks or Gohan could defeat a Kid Buu tier opponent in the future. True, they apparently had a roughly even fight but Kid Buu next shows full effort up until the Genki Dama, the art proves it. Further-more, Goku could only defeat him with a fully powered Kamehameha wave, which has been shown to be a 1.33x AMP. This could put Gohan & Gotenks & Super Buu all above Goku Ssj3, but still still not enough to defeat Kid Buu, hence why Goku needs to train.

There is no such distinction. Goku clearly says when he states that he and Vegeta need to train that if "worse comes to worse." That implies the worst possible outcome. What would be the worst possible outcome if this were the case? The worst possible outcome would be a fight where they couldn't use Gohan or Gotenks. Simple as. Goku even states that he thought Vegeta was going to resurrect the boys to have them fight Pure Boo. If Gohan or Gotenks couldn't beat a Pure Boo tier opponent then why would Goku even say this? And even if Goku, with a fully powered Kamehameha, could do this. Why couldn't Gohan or Gotenks? Gohan and Gotenks both have Kamehameha's, they should both be able to amp their Ki while using them. And both Gohan and Gotenks don't suffer from the same issue as Goku with his SSJ3 form. Gotenks has shown to freely use full power as a SSJ3 for a full 5 mins. Even if what you say is the case then:

SSJ3 Goku: 39
Pure Boo: 39
Evil Boo: 40
SSJ3 Gotenks: 41
Gohan: 43
SSJ3 Goku w/ FP Kamehameha: 51.87
SSJ3 Gotenks w/ FP Kamehameha: 54.53
Gohan w/ FP Kamehameha: 57.19

^Gohan or Gotenks would still be able to do the job.

There is, because they are inside his body. Due to their diminishing of strength and Ki they are only able to perhaps hurt a small mini version of Majin Buu, but not damage or huge the whole thing.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. mini-Evil Boo says they can't defeat him(the mini version). I was never on about damaging the proper Evil Boo. If mini-SSJ3 Goku can't beat mini-Evil Boo what makes you think SSJ3 Goku can beat Evil Boo?

All Vegeta has to work with is Kuririn + Piccolo and the Kids Pre-ROST. Of course it wouldn't make a difference. In a physical combat the Fat Majin Buu wasn't able to tank any attacks from Vegeta and despite doing his last (in the series) and probably, full power up, he STILL couldn't one shot Vegeta Ssj2, even with an angry explosion. Even if Gotenks was slightly stronger than Majin Vegeta Ssj2 and able to fight Buu, he still wouldn't and doesn't need to be even HALF of Goku's strength.

Vegeta's comment is a general one. It is not specifically aimed at anybody. His point was it doesn't matter who(that includes SSJ2 Goku, as he didn't know of SSJ3 at the time, and SSJ2 Gohan) went at Boo, the results would have been the same. But this is really the point. Piccolo would not have just train Gotenks outside of the RoSaT if he wasn't comparable to at least SSJ3 Goku's level at the time. It would not make any sense. If SSJ Gotenks was comparable to a SSJ adult(Vegeta or Goku) then you can bet Piccolo is going to throw them into the RoSaT even against Fat Boo. Yet he didn't do that. So it must be SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo by Piccolo's own actions. There is no way Gotenks could get up to a level where he could fight Fat Boo and win in 1 days worth of training if he were anything less than SSJ3 Goku's level at the time.

Also Piccolo believed the boys to be their last chance in defeating Majin Buu, does this mean they would also need to be stronger than the previous tiers of strength that failed just because Piccolo thought so? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Gotenks is no exception hence why nothing says he is AFTER he arrives.

I don't know what point you are trying to make here. SSJ Gotenks certainly does need to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku's level at the time if Piccolo wants to guarantee the win. I hardly think Piccolo is going to send off Gotenks to fight Fat Boo if he is only as strong as a non-fused SSJ. It would be ludicrous and pretty much a death sentence. Even sending Gotenks off to fight Boo if he is only as strong as a non-fused SSJ2 is practically suicide. We saw what happen to Vegeta.

I do get that, but it doesn't make sense. Nothing says Gotenks has to be stronger. Piccolo called the boys their only hope, according to your logic two brats who couldn't one shot Android 18 can somehow defeat Majin Buu.

What do you mean two brats who couldn't one shot Android 18? What have you been reading? Trunks held back and the shot still scared Android 18.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Goten is extremely worried about harming her here. Not to mention that Goten put up an amazing fight against Gohan and Trunks also managed to scratch Vegeta in a fight. They are massively stronger than Android 18 as SSJ's.

The whole reason Piccolo sends Gotenks into the RoSaT early is because Super Buu attained a body better suited for battle and was now able to sense Ki. So there wasn't any room for a full day's worth of training anyways and Piccolo had to act on the spot. Again, the Viz even has Piccolo saying Boo is still superior in every way.

Exactly, Evil Boo had become much more powerful than Fat Boo. To the point that 2 weeks of training plus SSJ3 were the only way to match him. So it would look something like this:

Fat Boo: 15
SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT): 19
SSJ Gotenks(Post-RoSaT): 25
SSJ3 Gotenks(8x SSJ): 200
Evil Boo: 195

I disagree with those numbers for stated reasons above.

Your "stated reasons" make no sense. Why wouldn't these numbers work? If SSJ Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo then Piccolo would have sent them into the RoSaT. He didn't send them in and opted for them to train outside, therefore SSJ Gotenks must be stronger than Fat boo. Then we have Piccolo send them into the RoSaT when Fat Boo becomes Evil Boo. Therefore SSJ Gotenks must be weaker than Evil Boo. Then we have Gotenks train for 2 weeks in the RoSaT and the only way Gotenks could match Evil Boo was to become a SSJ3. The numbers are fine as they are based off of a) The Daizenshuu multipliers. b) The fact that only SSJ3 Gotenks could fight against Evil Boo.

The training statement comes from Herms and the Viz + Daizenshuu all agree with this perspective. The only misleading theorizin' going on is fan interpretation.

What training statement? And where in the Daizenshuu does this agree with this perspective? The only statement we get about Gotenks training in the RoSaT is that he got really strong, enough to surpass Vegeta. This is incredibly generalised. We could easily say that it's on about Base Gotenks being stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. Because Piccolo thought they could win in base at one point. Piccolo can sense Ki, if Gotenks was lower than SSJ2 Vegeta why would Piccolo think they might be able to win in base?

Before the 'worse comes to worse' dialogue Vegeta states that Good Buu might become Kid Buu again and that it might really mean the end of the world. Now this wouldn't be the case if Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks could defeat Buu on their own. Further-more, that's why Goku is saying 'if the worst' comes to worst; if Kid Buu destroys the planet not that there were other people who could defeat him.

Do you not recall what Pure Boo did when he was first created? He tried blowing up the Earth. What happens if Gohan and Gotenks are on the other side of the world when Mr. Boo becomes Pure Boo? How are they going to get to him in time to stop him from blowing up the Earth? Vegeta's statement literally means nothing. Gohan and Gotenks could easily be defeated by the planet blowing up because they couldn't reach Pure Boo in time. The only person who would be able to save himself, or stop Pure Boo, would be Goku because he has instant transmission. And if Goku doesn't have the power to defeat Pure Boo then it's a lost cause. "If worse comes to worse" doesn't simply mean one possible worse outcome. It could mean any really bad outcome. Like Goku not having enough time to teleport away before Earth explodes by Pure Boo and there being nobody left to beat him. Or it could simply be that Goku is the only one left. It isn't on about any point in particular. Again, if Gohan or Gotenks couldn't beat Pure Boo then why would Goku even suggest bringing them to fight Pure Boo?

During the events of Dragonball Super Goku even says he's going to keep training to be able to defeat someone of Buu's magnitude. The only Buu previously referenced was Kid Buu and because Goku asked to have Kid Buu revived (But as a better person) it's only logical that he's the one in question.

Well, Goku can hardly bring back a Boo that was made up of different Boo's. Now can he? He would be killing Mr. Boo for starters.

I don't think you were able to counter my particular argument here.

I think this countered your argument perfectly. Evil Boo is made up of a combination of Pure Boo, S. Kaioshin and Mr. Boo who is the Dai Kaioshin influence. There is no way to bring him back without sacrificing Mr. Boo. The strongest opponent Goku could bring back without causing issues, and would still be a challenge for him, would be Pure Boo. As Pure Boo is his own spirit, not an amalgamation of souls.

There is no evidence that Gotenks lived up to any sort of expectations. No prophecy was fulfilled nor did anybody state that Goku's prediction actually came true. Everything, from Herms (stating Gotenks needs to train and train), to the Viz (with Piccolo + Krillin blatantly stating Buu is still stronger, to the Daizenshuu (which lists Gotenks as weaker than Vegeta). Fan theorizin' shouldn't over-ride three key points of evidence and reliable source material that says otherwise.

Again, if Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo then Piccolo would have put him into the RoSaT. It is simply idiotic to assume that Piccolo is happy with dooming the Earth by having Gotenks, who you claim is weaker than Fat Boo, only have a single days worth of training at the lookout. And no, Piccolo and Kuririn do not say still stronger. You need to check your facts. Secondly, the Daizenshuu makes no mention of which version of Gotenks is stronger than which version of Vegeta. Do you honestly think Piccolo is only going to have them train a single day on Earth if SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta? How is Gotenks supposed to beat Fat Boo like that? It makes no sense. Thirdly, you're the one theorizing here. You are assuming that the Daizenshuu is placing SSJ Gotenks below SSJ2 Vegeta when it doesn't say anything about what forms it's talking about. Something that wouldn't make sense in the manga as they would definitely be dead if they only used that 1 day to train on Earth. Tell me, if base Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta after training in the RoSaT why did Piccolo think they could win in base?

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

At this point Piccolo is thinking they might have a chance against Evil Boo just in base form. Piccolo isn't stupid, if base Gotenks < SSJ2 Vegeta he would have never stated the point above.

[Hugo Boss]

I think we should look at the context Piccolo used that sentence, it was a gag. He pretty much said something regarding Gotenks' normal form that only came to make sense when Gotenks was a SS3.

[Sora Saiyan]

Yeah that Piccolo scene was clearly a gag, he even face palms after. Piccolos sensing was really poor in the Boo arc bar a few instances.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

All of the events leading up to the scene are not gag. Only the actual fight with Evil Boo.

Chichi is killed, Goten wants revenge, the boys train rigorously, Trunks thinks Base Gotenks can match Evil Boo, Piccolo has restored hope after seeing Gotenks' power, and then it turns out Boo was even stronger than expected.

The situation is very comparable to Vegeta and #16 initially thinking Vegeta was stronger than Cell, and then Cell turns out to be a lot stronger than Vegeta.

The 'gag' sequence was only started during the next chapter on during the fight between Gotenks and Evil Boo.

If you do not want to believe Gotenks surpassed his Super Saiyan form in base, that is fine, but the fact that Boo and Gotenks' fight was humorous does not automatically mean Gotenks getting a great power up is invalid.

[Sora Saiyan]

The scenes leading upto it were serious, but its just Piccolos facepalm shortly after the fight begins that seals it as a total gag scene for me. Instead of Piccolo saying Boo is even more impressive than he thought, he instead just seems to take back what he thought about Gotenks.

[Hitiro]

The scenes leading upto it were serious, but its just Piccolos facepalm shortly after the fight begins that seals it as a total gag scene for me. Instead of Piccolo saying Boo is even more impressive than he thought, he instead just seems to take back what he thought about Gotenks.

His initial sentence about Gotenks being vastly powered up is serious though. I don't think this line should be discredited just because in the very next sequence a gag pops up.

[Sora Saiyan]

Gotenks has definitely powered up a lot, but he hasn't surpassed his previous SSJ form in my eyes. He's probably just tripled in power IMO which puts him well ahead of SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ. Like I said Piccolo looked like he changed his mind after witnessing Gotenks.

I follow a fusion formula that adds together the users power then multiplies by about 10. Let's say the kids were a quarter of there dads strength originally then they went in the RoSaT, and Gotenks power has now increased by over 50x, the set Fusion multiplier would mean the kids would have to be a hell of a lot stronger than their dads. That's the way I follow it anyway.

[dbgtFO]

It seems episode 2 of Super wants to make it a point that Goku is the strongest, at least according to Vegeta:

At the party in the evening, Vegeta thinks to himself, that Goku became the undisputed number 1 in the universe after defeating Majin Buu.
Later in the gravity chamber, He says, that he has accepted the fact that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but that he is not interested in being number 2.
He then says he'll surpass Goku, no not just Goku, but everyone in the universe.

Of course this all comes from a fansub, so we can't tell for sure if it's legit.

[Super Vegetto]

It seems episode 2 of Super wants to make it a point that Goku is the strongest, at least according to Vegeta:

At the party in the evening, Vegeta thinks to himself, that Goku became the undisputed number 1 in the universe after defeating Majin Buu.
Later in the gravity chamber, He says, that he has accepted the fact that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but that he is not interested in being number 2.
He then says he'll surpass Goku, no not just Goku, but everyone in the universe.

Of course this all comes from a fansub, so we can't tell for sure if it's legit.

Ofc that it's legit,,,if you didn't figured it out by now it's been Goku > Vegeta > everyone else since Original DBZ ended...

[rereboy]

Vegeta doesn't say anything different than what he said in his speech about Goku being the number 1 during the fight with Kid Buu. He even says the same expression "number 1".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta doesn't say anything different than what he said in his speech about Goku being the number 1 during the fight with Kid Buu. He even says the same expression "number 1".

It's very different, actually. In the manga, Vegeta is just talking about him & Goku. Here, he clearly says that Goku is #1 in the universe, and that he is #2.

[rereboy]

Vegeta doesn't say anything different than what he said in his speech about Goku being the number 1 during the fight with Kid Buu. He even says the same expression "number 1".

It's very different, actually. In the manga, Vegeta is just talking about him & Goku. Here, he clearly says that Goku is #1 in the universe, and that he is #2.

I don't think it's actually different at all. In the episode he says first that Goku is the strongest in the universe, but later he says that that he's accepted that Goku is the strongest saiyan, but he will surpass him.. no, that he will surpass everyone in the universe. If Goku is the strongest being in the universe, why the need to differentiate "saiyan" and between surpassing Goku and surpassing everyone in the universe? It just seems to be like a continuation to his number 1 speech, honestly.

I will wait to see how Super portrays Gohan and his power. I don't mind that Gohan has become weaker than Goku but I would actually like an explanation for it, like his mystical power up wearing off or something. It's easy and quick to explain it and yet they have never done it, not in GT, not in BOG or in the latest movie...

[Rocketman]

Mystic wore off in three months?

I mean, if they absolutely have to knock Gohan down so they can praise Godku more fervently, might as well say Mystic went away when Gohan died.

[rereboy]

It's a magical power-up with workings that weren't explained, like if it's permanent or if it's just temporary and how long it lasts in that case. They can literally do whatever they want regarding that, it wouldn't contradict anything.

The only problem would be doing what they have doing since GT... ignoring the issue.

Anyway, I disagree that it going away in a short amount of time would be bad in any case. In my view, it would actually balance the technique in-universe quite a bit. Something that unlocks your potential beyond your limits and that lasts forever seems too good. By going away that quickly, it means that they wouldn't be able to rely on it unless they could stall the enemy enough time for Kaioshin to perform it again, which logically opens the way for them to rely on other stuff.

[Rocketman]

It's a magical power-up with workings that weren't explained, like if it's permanent or if it's just temporary and how long it lasts in that case. They can literally do whatever they want regarding that, it wouldn't contradict anything.

The only problem would be doing what they have doing since GT... ignoring the issue.

He still had it at the end of Z and in GT, just in GT he goes Super on top of it, and GT Goku is incredahaxxed.

[rereboy]

It's a magical power-up with workings that weren't explained, like if it's permanent or if it's just temporary and how long it lasts in that case. They can literally do whatever they want regarding that, it wouldn't contradict anything.

The only problem would be doing what they have doing since GT... ignoring the issue.

He still had it at the end of Z and in GT, just in GT he goes Super on top of it, and GT Goku is incredahaxxed.

Just because you believe certain slight and subtle differences in his look imply that he is in his mystic form, doesn't mean that it's true, especially with the inconsistencies that already exist regarding Gohan's look between different forms (like his SSJ1 and SSJ2 state in the Buu saga). Drawing conclusion from just that is hardly trustworthy.

Not to mention that him losing mystic doesn't have to happen all of the sudden. It could be a gradual process, with him losing the effects and benefits of the power-up over time. Like I said, they can literally do anything with it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Mystic wore off in three months?

I doubt it. Gohan's eyes are still fully outlined, and we see him as Ultimate in the opening.

[Rocketman]

Just because you believe certain slight and subtle differences in his look imply that he is in his mystic form, doesn't mean that it's true, especially with the inconsistencies that already exist regarding Gohan's look between different forms (like his SSJ1 and SSJ2 state in the Buu saga).

Oh come off it. It's a major change that was shown off in the big splash panel revealing the form and never altered. Piccolo even comments on it, so it's an in-universe change as wel.

[rereboy]

Just because you believe certain slight and subtle differences in his look imply that he is in his mystic form, doesn't mean that it's true, especially with the inconsistencies that already exist regarding Gohan's look between different forms (like his SSJ1 and SSJ2 state in the Buu saga).

Oh come off it. It's a major change that was shown off in the big splash panel revealing the form and never altered. Piccolo even comments on it, so it's an in-universe change as wel.

So? Gohan's SSJ2 hair in the Buu saga was also clearly different from his SSJ1 hair in the Buu saga, and yet, after that point, his SSJ2 hair was used for every SSJ form he used.

You put way too much faith in Toriyama's consistency regarding those things. We can't really say that he forgot to draw his hair differently in his different forms, and then say that he couldn't have forgotten or made any kind of consistency mistake regarding the slight signs of his mystic power and that it has to mean something.