We dont need these kind of characters... I have nothing against them, that is just my opinion...Captain Space wrote:I...don't really understand what you're saying here.Dbzejo wrote:No... Just, no... We had Blue and Zarbon and thats enough...
Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
- fadeddreams5
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
I like over-the-top. <3Lord Beerus wrote:Why? I understand that Whis seems quite effeminate, but doesn't that seem a little over the top?fadeddreams5 wrote:Whis' ki should be rainbow.
I want this too.Polyphase Avatron wrote:Well maybe he can have one rainbow colored attack then, like Gogeta's in movie 12.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Wouldn't that just bring unnecessary attention to Whis' (potential) sexuality? :/
- Basaku
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
With the femminine manerisms? Yeah not really. He's also part of the villain faction. When it's someone in Uub/Goten/Pan category, then we could say there are no stereotypes in play.DemonRin wrote:Whis, if he is indeed gay, would be the first 100% respectful portrayal of one, at least so far.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
There are always going to be stereotypes, lol. Having a delicate-looking gay character with feminine mannerisms is just as stereotypical as gay character who's super buff.
Whis is probably the most likable villain out of Dragon Ball, with Pilaf and Beerus being the only real competition, he's also Goku and Vegeta's teacher later on, and the strongest character we've met so far. I'm not sure how he's not a respectable portrayal in any way, no character is perfect, if we're going to nitpick, then no character in any medium is a "respectable" portrayal of a homosexual.
Whis is probably the most likable villain out of Dragon Ball, with Pilaf and Beerus being the only real competition, he's also Goku and Vegeta's teacher later on, and the strongest character we've met so far. I'm not sure how he's not a respectable portrayal in any way, no character is perfect, if we're going to nitpick, then no character in any medium is a "respectable" portrayal of a homosexual.
- Basaku
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Ohh please. Girly/feminnine (or more derogative term "fruity") is one of the oldest, negative and perpetuated stereotypes about gay men and everyone knows it.Doctor. wrote:There are always going to be stereotypes, lol. Having a delicate-looking gay character with feminine mannerisms is just as stereotypical as gay character who's super buff.
Whis is probably the most likable villain out of Dragon Ball, with Pilaf and Beerus being the only real competition, he's also Goku and Vegeta's teacher later on, and the strongest character we've met so far. I'm not sure how he's not a respectable portrayal in any way, no character is perfect, if we're going to nitpick, then no character in any medium is a "respectable" portrayal of a homosexual.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
You missed his point.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Yes, "oldest", you said it correctly. When Whis was thought to be straight (or asexual), he wasn't looked down upon by anyone for being an effeminate character. Not by Toriyama, not by Toei, not by the characters in the series, not by the fans.
So why would it be any different now? Whis being effeminate was a trait that defined his character before. Why should it suddenly be a problem now, just because he was revealed to (possibly) be gay? Yes, it's a stereotype, but anything can be. Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
You're looking down on everything the character is and stands for just because one stereotype, that's not even being used in a negative way, is a part of his personality.
So why would it be any different now? Whis being effeminate was a trait that defined his character before. Why should it suddenly be a problem now, just because he was revealed to (possibly) be gay? Yes, it's a stereotype, but anything can be. Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
You're looking down on everything the character is and stands for just because one stereotype, that's not even being used in a negative way, is a part of his personality.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
As opposed to the points before this, where nobody wanted to put gay characters in shows? Same effect, new excuse.Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Before this, people put gay characters in shows to purposefully make them look bad though.Rocketman wrote:As opposed to the points before this, where nobody wanted to put gay characters in shows? Same effect, new excuse.Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Odd that "purposefully look bad" looks the same as "respectful", innit?
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
You are fishing and clouding the issue. The point is that there's really nothing disrespectful about Whis except when people are reaching for it. And when people are reaching, they find faults in practically anything, doesn't really matter if it's about the portrayal of gay people or any other subject.Rocketman wrote:Odd that "purposefully look bad" looks the same as "respectful", innit?
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Whis is well dressed, respectful, and has manners, and has high cheekbones and delicate features. If this is considered a negative portrayal, I don't want to see a positive one. Androgyny is not the same as being effeminate. Manners and subservience are also not bad traits, despite the brashness and rudeness of most Dragon Ball characters (male or female).
He isn't lisping, sassing people out, or has strange mannerisms. He isn't acting like an airhead. He isn't being a stereotype of a twink or a dandy.
I don't know if he is gay or not, but I don't think there is anything negative about his portrayal. He controls one of the most powerful beings in the universe from going on a destruction rampage, while still being morally ambiguous himself. That is a pretty awesome character, gay or straight.
He isn't lisping, sassing people out, or has strange mannerisms. He isn't acting like an airhead. He isn't being a stereotype of a twink or a dandy.
I don't know if he is gay or not, but I don't think there is anything negative about his portrayal. He controls one of the most powerful beings in the universe from going on a destruction rampage, while still being morally ambiguous himself. That is a pretty awesome character, gay or straight.
- Basaku
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Just another excuse not to put LGBT characters in. Everyone knows most popular, tired and at-this-point boring stereotypes, it does not cost anything or take any effort to be able to restrain yourself from making a gay character effiminate, or at the very least providing some counterpart. Sailor Moon has effiminate gay guys and butch lesbians 20 years ago and yet people don't complain 'cause there were also masculine gay guys and feminine lesbians in the show and everyone knew Takeuchi wasn't just resorting to the stereotypes for kicks or because she had a banal/uneducated outlook on people. Toriyama and Dragon Ball? Forgive me if an effiminate gay guy 20 years after Nazi-gay parody and leather-daddy stereotype raises my eyebrow.Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
You could raise your eyebrow if Whis was being used in the same manner as those two characters: for comedy in a way that's offensive to homosexual people. He's not, he's being one of the more likable and interesting of Toriyama's new characters and is quickly becoming a fan favorite.Basaku wrote:Just another excuse not to put LGBT characters in. Everyone knows most popular, tired and at-this-point boring stereotypes, it does not cost anything or take any effort to be able to restrain yourself from making a gay character effiminate, or at the very least providing some counterpart. Sailor Moon has effiminate gay guys and butch lesbians 20 years ago and yet people don't complain 'cause there were also masculine gay guys and feminine lesbians in the show and everyone knew Takeuchi wasn't just resorting to the stereotypes for kicks or because she had a banal/uneducated outlook on people. Toriyama and Dragon Ball? Forgive me if an effiminate gay guy 20 years after Nazi-gay parody and leather-daddy stereotype raises my eyebrow.Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
You continued to miss his point.Basaku wrote:...
- Basaku
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Effiminate stereotype repeated over and over again gets irritating and yes it will feel offensive if it's the only way we're being portrayed. Just as Whis (if he's gay) is nowhere near as bad as Blue/Otokosuki, it also doesn't mean he automatically becomes 100% respectful portrayal and "we" should instantly shut up and don't question anything.Doctor. wrote:You could raise your eyebrow if Whis was being used in the same manner as those two characters: for comedy in a way that's offensive to homosexual people. He's not, he's being one of the more likable and interesting of Toriyama's new characters and is quickly becoming a fan favorite.
That's been your job in this thread. Carry on.rereboy wrote:You continued to miss his point.
- Captain Space
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Debate good. Strong disagreement/opinion fine. Ad hominem less good.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
Maybe seeing that he wasn't a Blue/Otokosuki level of offensive made me overreact when I said "100% respectful". Maybe a better way to say it would be "Whis might be DBs first Gay Character who's Gayness isn't entirely there for the sake of a punchline".Basaku wrote:Effiminate stereotype repeated over and over again gets irritating and yes it will feel offensive if it's the only way we're being portrayed. Just as Whis (if he's gay) is nowhere near as bad as Blue/Otokosuki, it also doesn't mean he automatically becomes 100% respectful portrayal and "we" should instantly shut up and don't question anything.
"FUNi should take [DBZ] out behind the woodshed, give it one last treat, then blow its f%#@$ng brains out before it attacks the baby again." ~Rocketman
Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians
"Things are only offensive if people take offense to them and their offense is approved by me. Any unapproved offense is 'reaching' and therefore invalid."rereboy wrote:The point is that there's really nothing disrespectful about Whis except when people are reaching for it. And when people are reaching, they find faults in practically anything, doesn't really matter if it's about the portrayal of gay people or any other subject.