Super retelling BOG and ROF

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.

So does he. Jaco & DB- contradict the Bardock TV Special, to the point it is impossible for it to happen. Bardock vs Freeza still happens though, since it's in the manga.

[Doctor.]

Like I said, why would they leave such a big plot hole in and why would they unnecessarily change the date? The only time the series was said to be 6 months after Boo was in promotional material, in the series proper, no date was ever stated. Also, I don't understand why you disregard M13 because of a plot hole, but not Super when it has the same one.

[MaGyunia]

How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.

So does he. Jaco & DB- contradict the Bardock TV Special, to the point it is impossible for it to happen. Bardock vs Freeza still happens though, since it's in the manga.

Yeah, I was referring to the confrontation between Bardock and Freeza, which is basically not only the climax of the special but the fundamental and inevitable point of the entire thing.

[fadeddreams5]

When Janemba is around, it's perfectly okay to have plot holes. You could have Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan on the same screen, and it'd work. Janemba is the GOAT. <333

Edit: Oh wait, M13 is the one with the giant skeleton roach.

[Doctor.]

When Janemba is around, it's perfectly okay to have plot holes. You could have Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan on the same screen, and it'd work. Janemba is the GOAT. <333

Not really, any time time travel is involved, you just get plot holes up the ass.

[MaGyunia]

I found the exercise I did a few weeks ago on the movies and under which circumstances each one of them would have taken place (and when).
As you can see, I originally didn't include neither Movie 9 nor Movie 13 because at that time I considered them to produce no inconsistencies with the series' timeline at all (hence, it could be said that they "happened").

Anyone with the knowledge and patience to correct or add anything, please do so.

Here it goes (it's the untouched original thing, I haven't changed any of its potential shortcomings, and there are indeed some):

"All the others WOULD have "happened" in the following circumstances:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 2 - It WOULD have happened IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc, since he uses Kaio Ken in the movie.
Movie 3 - IF there had been an additional Saiya-jin to have survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta and later came to Earth to find Kakarotto. It WOULD have taken place IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc before Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo died.
Movie 4 - IF there had been an additional Namek-sei-jin who survived the extreme weather conditions on the planet that led to Piccolo being sent to Earth and IF Goku and the others somehow had managed to either beat Freeza after Piccolo is resurrected and Vegeta dies but before he became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin or had left Namek before that, for some reason.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Movie 7 - IF the only two Jinzouningen which actually ever existed had been #19 and Dr. Gero (no #16, no #17, no #18, no Cell), and after either Goku or Vegeta and Piccolo had beaten them. It would have happened right after that.
Movie 8 - IF two additional Saiya-jin had survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and IF one of them WOULD just happen to be the Legendary Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD have happened if Paragas came to Earth during the 10 day-period between Cell's announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, after Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT, since Gohan is a Super Saiya-jin.
Movie 10 - IF Brolly ever existed and had come to Earth. It WOULD have taken place during the period of time Gohan trains Videl and Goten.
Movie 11 - IF Brolly ever existed. It WOULD have taken place right after the previous movie (and after the Tenkaichi Budokai that led to the Majin Buu arc, but without the arc itself ever happening, as there WOULD have had been a Tenkaichi Budokai which for some reason had a final in which #18 lets Mr. Satan win in exchange for quite a large sum of money).
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)

Both the Bardock special and the Trunks special depict events which happened off-screen in DBZ's storyline (in Trunks' movie case, before he decided to go back in the past to warn Goku and the others about the Jinzouningen, which generated a different timeline - pretty much similar to what happened in Back to the Future 2)

The 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F were up until very recently considered to be follow-up continuations of DBZ's main, one and only timeline, and the 2008 special by itself can still be considered to be canon, as there's nothing there that contradicts what we've been seeing or hearing about in DBSuper, but BoG and Fukkatsu no F have also been basically turned into side-stories which are going to be retold, with the introduction of the same characters and stages but at a different timing and in different circumstances."

[fadeddreams5]

When Janemba is around, it's perfectly okay to have plot holes. You could have Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan on the same screen, and it'd work. Janemba is the GOAT. <333

Not really, any time time travel is involved, you just get plot holes up the ass.

Who said anything about time travel? Janemba can just dig into his portals and pull Kid Gohan out. Like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. You don't questions the works of Janemba.

Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)

I would say it would occur if Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan beat Super Buu instead. If SSJ3 Goku beat Fat Buu, there'd be no point in teaching the kids fusion, which they demonstrate in the movie. I doubt Piccolo would have bothered.

[ZombieVito]

You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.

How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.

If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.

Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.

I'm not talking about EoB...

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Minus
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Jaco_t ... _Patrolman

[MaGyunia]

You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.

How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.

If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.

Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.

I'm not talking about EoB...

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Minus
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Jaco_t ... _Patrolman

I know what that is, thank you. When I included the Bardock Special in the canon list I did so obviously because the fundamental aspects of the events depicted in the special did remain canon, especially Goku being sent to Earth and Bardock's confrontation with Freeza.

You don't need to paste links for Dragonball stuff in that condescending way, I know pretty much everything there is to know about it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.

Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.

Do you take filler & guidebooks into account? Because if you do, these 2 movies happened. The Garlic Jr. arc means that M1 happened, and according to the official timeline, both Movies 1 & 5 happened.

[MaGyunia]

Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.

Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.

Do you take filler & guidebooks into account? Because if you do, these 2 movies happened. The Garlic Jr. arc means that M1 happened, and according to the official timeline, both Movies 1 & 5 happened.

In fact, the ONLY reason why I didn't include Movie 1 in the "canon" movies is because Krillin is shown to meet Gohan, and when Raditz shows up he's just as surprised that Goku has a son as everyone else at Kame House. Apart from that (minor) detail, it doesn't produce any inconsistencies. I regard the Garlic Jr. arc as canon, with the exception of Garlic Jr. remembering Gohan and Goku from a few years ago when they met in Movie 1 (but if Movie 1 is canon, then the Garlic Jr. arc is definitely canon without any possible debate over it).

Regarding Movie 5, we could argue that Goku did in fact fight Cooler on Earth during the 3 year gap between his return to Earth and the Jinzouningen arc, and the fact that he didn't go Super Saiya-jin right from the start (which he seems to be able to rather comfortably upon meeting Mirai no Trunks) is due to the fact that for some reason he regressed and could only attain the Super Saiya-jin stage when again pushed to his limits in terms of anger, just like Gohan hasn't "mastered" the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2 against Bojack even after having reached it against Cell, as in, he could only attain it if pushed to his limits AGAIN.

We're merely discussing which of the 13 Movies COULD have taken place within the series' timeline without producing any plot holes or inconsistencies, but I'm sure that it was never their preoccupation whether or not they were possible to have happened or not. Toriyama did indeed once say that the movies have to be seen as side-stories, depicting "what-if" scenarios. If you want to call that an "alternate universe" or an "alternate timeline", or whatever it is, it's just a matter of naming. Besides, the issue over "canonness" has produced countless discussions over the years and still to this day no definite, absolute conclusion has been reached, and may never be at any point in the future.

We were just exploring a little bit the area of the Movies and whether or not the events depicted in them could have taken place, and under which circumstances. It's not meant to turn into a serious debate or anything. You're always going to find someone else with a different point of view that contradicts yours.

[Hellspawn28]

Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).

Movie 13 can't fit now since there is no way that Hoi can make his wish to free Tapion out of the box so soon after the last wish was made. It would take months after the last wish was made for the Dragon Ball's to return back to normal.

If Super takes place 4 years after Boo like BoG did, then it can still fit in.

Maybe a year after Buu then sure. Since Super came out, both Wrath of the Dragon and the 2008 Jump Special can't happen now. The first episode of Super mention some time as past since the last wish was made. Super most likely takes place months after Buu. So no way that Hoi can get his wish happen so soon after Buu if the Dragon Balls would be stone after Buu and before Beerus.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In fact, the ONLY reason why I didn't include Movie 1 in the "canon" movies is because Krillin is shown to meet Gohan, and when Raditz shows up he's just as surprised that Goku has a son as everyone else at Kame House. Apart from that (minor) detail, it doesn't produce any inconsistencies. I regard the Garlic Jr. arc as canon, with the exception of Garlic Jr. remembering Gohan and Goku from a few years ago when they met in Movie 1 (but if Movie 1 is canon, then the Garlic Jr. arc is definitely canon without any possible debate over it).

Regarding Movie 5, we could argue that Goku did in fact fight Cooler on Earth during the 3 year gap between his return to Earth and the Jinzouningen arc, and the fact that he didn't go Super Saiya-jin right from the start (which he seems to be able to rather comfortably upon meeting Mirai no Trunks) is due to the fact that for some reason he regressed and could only attain the Super Saiya-jin stage when again pushed to his limits in terms of anger, just like Gohan hasn't "mastered" the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2 against Bojack even after having reached it against Cell, as in, he could only attain it if pushed to his limits AGAIN.

Well, there are inconsistences in the anime, and even in the manga, so I can go past one minor one.

As for M5, it is possible that Goku didn't transform because he was trying to beat him without SS, like he does in GT, and just happened to transform after he got angry, like Gohan did against Super #17 in GT.

Maybe a year after Buu then sure. Since Super came out, both Wrath of the Dragon and the 2008 Jump Special can't happen now. The first episode of Super mention some time as past since the last wish was made. Super most likely takes place months after Buu. So no way that Hoi can get his wish happen so soon after Buu if the Dragon Balls would be stone after Buu and before Beerus.

Super most likely takes place 4 years after Boo's death, like BoG. With the DBs being active, it definitely takes place 1 year after the wish that was made to erase the memories of Boo from the Earthlings, which was made 6 months after Boo's death. If Videl is pregnant, then this confirms that it takes place in the same period as BoG.

Unless if we have plot-holes.

So, M13 & JSAT can still happen.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

In fact, the ONLY reason why I didn't include Movie 1 in the "canon" movies is because Krillin is shown to meet Gohan, and when Raditz shows up he's just as surprised that Goku has a son as everyone else at Kame House. Apart from that (minor) detail, it doesn't produce any inconsistencies. I regard the Garlic Jr. arc as canon, with the exception of Garlic Jr. remembering Gohan and Goku from a few years ago when they met in Movie 1 (but if Movie 1 is canon, then the Garlic Jr. arc is definitely canon without any possible debate over it).

Regarding Movie 5, we could argue that Goku did in fact fight Cooler on Earth during the 3 year gap between his return to Earth and the Jinzouningen arc, and the fact that he didn't go Super Saiya-jin right from the start (which he seems to be able to rather comfortably upon meeting Mirai no Trunks) is due to the fact that for some reason he regressed and could only attain the Super Saiya-jin stage when again pushed to his limits in terms of anger, just like Gohan hasn't "mastered" the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2 against Bojack even after having reached it against Cell, as in, he could only attain it if pushed to his limits AGAIN.

Well, there are inconsistences in the anime, and even in the manga, so I can go past one minor one.

As for M5, it is possible that Goku didn't transform because he was trying to beat him without SS, like he does in GT, and just happened to transform after he got angry, like Gohan did against Super #17 in GT.

Maybe a year after Buu then sure. Since Super came out, both Wrath of the Dragon and the 2008 Jump Special can't happen now. The first episode of Super mention some time as past since the last wish was made. Super most likely takes place months after Buu. So no way that Hoi can get his wish happen so soon after Buu if the Dragon Balls would be stone after Buu and before Beerus.

Super most likely takes place 4 years after Boo's death, like BoG. With the DBs being active, it definitely takes place 1 year after the wish that was made to erase the memories of Boo from the Earthlings, which was made 6 months after Boo's death. If Videl is pregnant, then this confirms that it takes place in the same period as BoG.

Unless if we have plot-holes.

So, M13 & JSAT can still happen.

And yet, Toriyama and TOEI confirm it's 6 months after Boo for some odd reason. I don't get why the fans know so much more than the creators themselves.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

From what I remember, Toriyama didn't confirm anything. He said Super would start up with a little bit of the battle's aftermath, but that says absolutely nothing about a concrete timeframe. It's only been the promotional material from Toei and Shueisha (probably provided to them by Toei) that outright says the series proper is set 6 months after Buu...which could still turn out to be wrong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And yet, Toriyama and TOEI confirm it's 6 months after Boo for some odd reason. I don't get why the fans know so much more than the creators themselves.

Toriyama never said that. It was stated in promotional stuff, which have been wrong before. We were told that Goten wanted to get a present for Videl because she was gonna get married with Gohan, while it turns out they were already married, recently. It seems that in that case, the guy who wrote that Super begins 6 months after Boo's death thought that it takes place after the wish about Boo, which is what actually happened 6 months after Boo's death.

Toei also isn't a person, it's a big company with lots of employers that their involvement to the story varies, and can make mistakes, as they did once.

[Blackstripe]

Why would Mr. Satan just be giving Goku his reward money several years after Majin Buu? Also, why had nobody seen Buu yet? We know he became famous as Mr. Satan's disciple by EoZ, so it makes the most sense for it to indeed be set 6 months later. Plus, it means Goten and Trunks are still seven and eight years old respectively, instead of being teenagers that look like little kids.

[sintzu]

From what I remember, Toriyama didn't confirm anything.

I think he said it's set a "little while" after the battle with Buu and the narrator says that it takes place a little while after they wished for everyone to forget about Buu so at the most it takes place a year after.

[coola]

For "F" Movie, i hope they will say, that Freeza trains in some sort of Room and Spirit chamber, where one day equals 1 year, prodigy or not, i find it extremely hard to believe, that in just 4 months, Freeza went from 120.000.000 to above Super Buu level. I will even take TFS joke that Freeza doesn't know what month is, everyihng will be better than just 4 months of train

[Hellspawn28]

Super most likely takes place 4 years after Boo's death, like BoG. With the DBs being active, it definitely takes place 1 year after the wish that was made to erase the memories of Boo from the Earthlings, which was made 6 months after Boo's death. If Videl is pregnant, then this confirms that it takes place in the same period as BoG.

Unless if we have plot-holes.

So, M13 & JSAT can still happen.

I recall that when the show was announce or during it's early promos that Super is said to start six months after the defeat of Majin Buu. So if it's six months after Buu then Movie 13 can't happen due to the lack of time for the DB's can be used again in order for Hoi to make his wish. JSAT also can't happen now since the people on Earth remember Majin Buu in JSAT. In Super, no one remembers Majin Buu and Mr. Satan told everyone that Fat Buu is a alien from another galaxy that has come to Earth to train with him.