Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GatoF » Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:27 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:53 am
GatoF wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:19 pm Also you forgot Master Karin...I think he should be stronger than Goku when he climbed the tower and weaker than Tao Pai Pai.
Karin is at 190. Stronger than even 22nd TB Goku lol.
I followed the logic of Goku surpassing his master to beat the bad guy when he caught Karin, kinda like Goku did to Kaio in the saiyan arc but I can see Karin stronger than Tao and Kame sure.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:36 am

GatoF wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:27 amI followed the logic of Goku surpassing his master to beat the bad guy when he caught Karin, kinda like Goku did to Kaio in the saiyan arc but I can see Karin stronger than Tao and Kame sure.
Goku isn't stated to have surpassed Karin until the Piccolo Daimao arc, and there really isn't anything that indicates that it happened when Goku originally trained with him. With Kaio, it was directly confirmed that Goku had surpassed him.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Godo » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:56 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:53 am
GatoF wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:19 pm Also you forgot Master Karin...I think he should be stronger than Goku when he climbed the tower and weaker than Tao Pai Pai.
Karin is at 190. Stronger than even 22nd TB Goku lol.
Good observation. :clap:
I don't see why that would be a problem. Karin is the master that was stronger than Goku which he surpassed.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:50 am

How strong do you guys think the Grand Kaiosama is?

IIRC, Kaio was extremely vocal about this guy's power or skills. As if he was really strong not just by those crappy little chubby kaios' standards, but by a guy's who has been keeping an eye on the saiyan, Namek and Cell arc.
Besides the gods, nobody else could sense his ki, so Goku being excited means nothing.

The guy knows he is not on Goku or Paikuhan's level, but could he take on Namek Freeza, for instance? or the androids? or is he barely above the kaiosamas and probably is useless by the time Vegeta died on Namek?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:12 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:50 am How strong do you guys think the Grand Kaiosama is?

IIRC, Kaio was extremely vocal about this guy's power or skills. As if he was really strong not just by those crappy little chubby kaios' standards, but by a guy's who has been keeping an eye on the saiyan, Namek and Cell arc.
Besides the gods, nobody else could sense his ki, so Goku being excited means nothing.

The guy knows he is not on Goku or Paikuhan's level, but could he take on Namek Freeza, for instance? or the androids? or is he barely above the kaiosamas and probably is useless by the time Vegeta died on Namek?
I don't think he can kill Namek Freeza. Shin made a big deal of the Kaioshins being able to kill Namek Freeza easily so I don't think the Grand Kai should be able to do it.

At best I think he can beat base Goku from the Cell Games.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hero » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:52 pm

I'm going to start Super soon. I'm choosing the manga since I love comics and it's two arcs ahead of the anime. Besides, Black Frieza is what got me to start Super, and he's only in the manga so far.

I know the 6/10/15 scale for SSJG/Beerus/Whis has long been retconned. However, as a fun experiment, I'll treat it as a log scale because why the hell not. Meaning, using a normal number scale:

SSJG Goku (BoG)- 1
Beerus- 10,000
Whis- 1,000,000,000

Goku was 416 at the start of DBZ, right? So using DBZ as an analogy:

SSJG Goku = 416 = BoZ Goku

Beerus = 4,160,000 = Initial Final Form Frieza?

Whis = 416,000,000,000 = Depends on your power level numbers. For me, this is close to MSSJ Vegito (Buu). For others, this can be as low as SSJ3 Gotenks. Or if someone has the base saiyans above Frieza and doesn't use the 50x/2x/4x multipliers, this can be as low as SSJ3 Goku (Buu).

I mean, this works for me for now. This is the only way I can fit:

Beerus > Gas > UI Goku (Granola) > SSJB Gogeta (Broly) > LSSJ Broly > MSSJ Gogeta (Broly) > SSJ Broly > Base Gogeta (Broly) > SSJB Goku (Broly) >> SSJB Broly (RoF) > SSJG Goku (BoG)

And, of course, SSJB KKx20 Goku has to fit there too.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:37 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:10 pm Alright, I was finally able to knock out the battle powers for the Freeza arc, and my list has been updated accordingly. Unfortunately, I kinda suspect that it'll take me a lot longer complete the Cell and Boo arcs, considering there won't be any official power levels to go off of, but we'll see. As always, I welcome all feedback, so let me know what you guys think!
Like GatoF said, I think Yajirobe deserves a fair bump. Granted Goku probably used his tournament level against him, but that same level was enough for Kuririn to lose sight of Goku completely.
Godo wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:56 amGood observation. :clap:
I don't see why that would be a problem. Karin is the master that was stronger than Goku which he surpassed.
Worth pointing out Karin says Goku is stronger than him when he asks for training in the Piccolo Saga, but Goku’s probably gotten a bit of a boost after the tournament.

A tricky thing with Karin is, he apparently did not train Tenshinhan and co. when they came for him. Yamcha and Kuririn say they just climbed the tower, got some senzus and left. That sounds like they were all stronger than him already.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:50 am How strong do you guys think the Grand Kaiosama is?

IIRC, Kaio was extremely vocal about this guy's power or skills. As if he was really strong not just by those crappy little chubby kaios' standards, but by a guy's who has been keeping an eye on the saiyan, Namek and Cell arc.
Besides the gods, nobody else could sense his ki, so Goku being excited means nothing.

The guy knows he is not on Goku or Paikuhan's level, but could he take on Namek Freeza, for instance? or the androids? or is he barely above the kaiosamas and probably is useless by the time Vegeta died on Namek?
Freeza level sounds good for me. One shotting Freeza is a pretty big deal I’d reserve for the Kaioshins, but I think Grand Kaio only freaks out at Goku vs Paikuhan, doesn’t he? I think that would place him above all other fighters that were on Base Goku’s level, like Olibu.
Hero wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:52 pm Beerus > Gas > UI Goku (Granola) > SSJB Gogeta (Broly) > LSSJ Broly > MSSJ Gogeta (Broly) > SSJ Broly > Base Gogeta (Broly) > SSJB Goku (Broly) >> SSJB Broly (RoF) > SSJG Goku (BoG)
:eh: :eh:

I think you might like to check this thread too if you haven’t already (I think you have, but there’s the link anyway).

I haven’t done the manga in a while…. but looking back it might be doable. 10,000x might be a small gap between Beerus and Goku in the anime, but I can see it fitting in the manga if you squeeze.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:29 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:37 pmLike GatoF said, I think Yajirobe deserves a fair bump. Granted Goku probably used his tournament level against him, but that same level was enough for Kuririn to lose sight of Goku completely
You're probably right. The more I think about it, I think somewhere closer to Goku's match-use power would be more appropriate (probably around 90~95).

Worth pointing out Karin says Goku is stronger than him when he asks for training in the Piccolo Saga, but Goku’s probably gotten a bit of a boost after the tournament.
I've considered that idea, but it kinda rubs me the wrong way. While I've applied future information to early material retroactively before, the idea that Goku only surpassed Karin because of a Saiyan power boost, something Toriyama hadn't even come up with yet, seems like too big of a departure from the authorial intent for me to accept it.

A tricky thing with Karin is, he apparently did not train Tenshinhan and co. when they came for him. Yamcha and Kuririn say they just climbed the tower, got some senzus and left. That sounds like they were all stronger than him already.
Kuririn and co. may not've directly stated that they recieved training from Karin, but I definitely think that's what that scene was implying. Tenshinhan might not've gotten much out of such training, but I definitely think Kuririn, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu could've learned a thing or two from him. As an aside, does anyone else find it kinda weird that nobody thought to feed Chiaotzu a Senzu after his loss against Taopaipai? Tenshinhan and co. might not've known it was medicine, but Goku definitely did. Seems like kinda a dick move to me.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hero » Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:06 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:37 pm
DanielSSJ wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:10 pm Alright, I was finally able to knock out the battle powers for the Freeza arc, and my list has been updated accordingly. Unfortunately, I kinda suspect that it'll take me a lot longer complete the Cell and Boo arcs, considering there won't be any official power levels to go off of, but we'll see. As always, I welcome all feedback, so let me know what you guys think!
Like GatoF said, I think Yajirobe deserves a fair bump. Granted Goku probably used his tournament level against him, but that same level was enough for Kuririn to lose sight of Goku completely.
Godo wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:56 amGood observation. :clap:
I don't see why that would be a problem. Karin is the master that was stronger than Goku which he surpassed.
Worth pointing out Karin says Goku is stronger than him when he asks for training in the Piccolo Saga, but Goku’s probably gotten a bit of a boost after the tournament.

A tricky thing with Karin is, he apparently did not train Tenshinhan and co. when they came for him. Yamcha and Kuririn say they just climbed the tower, got some senzus and left. That sounds like they were all stronger than him already.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:50 am How strong do you guys think the Grand Kaiosama is?

IIRC, Kaio was extremely vocal about this guy's power or skills. As if he was really strong not just by those crappy little chubby kaios' standards, but by a guy's who has been keeping an eye on the saiyan, Namek and Cell arc.
Besides the gods, nobody else could sense his ki, so Goku being excited means nothing.

The guy knows he is not on Goku or Paikuhan's level, but could he take on Namek Freeza, for instance? or the androids? or is he barely above the kaiosamas and probably is useless by the time Vegeta died on Namek?
Freeza level sounds good for me. One shotting Freeza is a pretty big deal I’d reserve for the Kaioshins, but I think Grand Kaio only freaks out at Goku vs Paikuhan, doesn’t he? I think that would place him above all other fighters that were on Base Goku’s level, like Olibu.
Hero wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:52 pm Beerus > Gas > UI Goku (Granola) > SSJB Gogeta (Broly) > LSSJ Broly > MSSJ Gogeta (Broly) > SSJ Broly > Base Gogeta (Broly) > SSJB Goku (Broly) >> SSJB Broly (RoF) > SSJG Goku (BoG)
:eh: :eh:

I think you might like to check this thread too if you haven’t already (I think you have, but there’s the link anyway).

I haven’t done the manga in a while…. but looking back it might be doable. 10,000x might be a small gap between Beerus and Goku in the anime, but I can see it fitting in the manga if you squeeze.
I meant SSJB Goku (RoF) haha.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:42 am

DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:29 pm You're probably right. The more I think about it, I think somewhere closer to Goku's match-use power would be more appropriate (probably around 90~95).
I think that’s the best placement. Goku wasn’t going all out since Yajirobe is intimidated by his later fights, but he was pretty serious.
I’ve considered that idea, but it kinda rubs me the wrong way. While I've applied future information to early material retroactively before, the idea that Goku only surpassed Karin because of a Saiyan power boost, something Toriyama hadn't even come up with yet, seems like too big of a departure from the authorial intent for me to accept it.
Goku made some small gains after the Budokai, so I always thought fighters improving from fighting was a thing, even for non Saiyans (Like Piccolo’s 322~329 increase post Raditz). It’s hardly ever anything noteworthy though, and I often don’t even change the power level because of it.
As an aside, does anyone else find it kinda weird that nobody thought to feed Chiaotzu a Senzu after his loss against Taopaipai? Tenshinhan and co. might not've known it was medicine, but Goku definitely did. Seems like kinda a dick move to me.
And they were just talking about Tao Pai Pai when Goku brought up the Senzus too lol. AT does forget this stuff a lot, have you ever noticed they never revived the cities Nappa and Gero destroyed too?

About 2nd form Freeza in your list. I think there’s some room to say Freeza wasn’t at 1 million yet since Japanese tends to be vague. But since Vegeta was surprised Freeza could control his power level, then I doubt he’s referencing a power he had yet to show.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:26 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:42 amAnd they were just talking about Tao Pai Pai when Goku brought up the Senzus too lol. AT does forget this stuff a lot, have you ever noticed they never revived the cities Nappa and Gero destroyed too?

About 2nd form Freeza in your list. I think there’s some room to say Freeza wasn’t at 1 million yet since Japanese tends to be vague. But since Vegeta was surprised Freeza could control his power level, then I doubt he’s referencing a power he had yet to show.
A fair point, but ki sensing isn't really treated as something super mathematically precise. You never really see a character talking about how another person's ki doubled or tripled in size (unless if they're talking about their own power: Freeza at 50%, Goku's Kaioken levels, ect).

Maybe I'll change my mind later, but for now I'm leaving Freeza where he is.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:37 pm

I agree with most of the Namek arc numbers.

Geets MUST have gotten a nap boost, otherwise Jeese is pretty close to Freeza lol. I would have Vegeta lower than 87k vs Jeese, though, given that the space australian didn't explode on impact. His big boost apparently comes from the nap. 250k for Vegeta at rest, and his FP being closer to Freeza's works, too.

I never agreed with Gohan and Krilin's official numbers against the Ginyu Tokusentai. 15k is certain death against a 40k Reacoom, I always preferred them to be already on the 20k-ish. Given Krilin was oneshot against somebody 2x stronger than he was, and also Vegeta thought Goku had arrived but it was actually Gohan.
I'd say Krilin was 20k, and Gohan 25k by the time they are fighting Reacoom. Not that much after, Krilin will be 75k... it makes more sense to me for him to go slowly towards that, rather than going from 10-ish to 70-ish in the span of like what? 2 hours?

I agree with Freeza's numbers and with Gohan's rage moments. It's best to take the official numbers (the 14 and 15k for Krilin and Gohan, Vegeta's 250 vs Freeza, and Gohan's 200 vs Freeza) as their resting power and not their full power. It's a tricky situation when it comes to the numbers of that whole Freeza vs everybody fight, but yours works just fine.

However, SS Goku and FP Freeza was a pretty close fight for their BPs to be that far apart. Freeza got the upper hand once or twice. I'd have Freeza at 130, if Goku is at 140.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:37 pm I agree with most of the Namek arc numbers.

Geets MUST have gotten a nap boost, otherwise Jeese is pretty close to Freeza lol. I would have Vegeta lower than 87k vs Jeese, though, given that the space australian didn't explode on impact. His big boost apparently comes from the nap. 250k for Vegeta at rest, and his FP being closer to Freeza's works, too.
Thanks for the feedback! While I'm not super attached to 87k figure I gave Vegeta, his dialogue during his fight with Jheese does indicate that his initial power-boost was huge. In fact, rereading that exchange kinda makes me think that I might've lowballed him (I think I originally had him somewhere between base Goku and Ginyu's max). Even the fact that Jheese isn't immediately obliterated could just be chalked up to Vegeta toying with him for the fun of it.

I never agreed with Gohan and Krilin's official numbers against the Ginyu Tokusentai. 15k is certain death against a 40k Reacoom, I always preferred them to be already on the 20k-ish. Given Krilin was oneshot against somebody 2x stronger than he was, and also Vegeta thought Goku had arrived but it was actually Gohan.
I'd say Krilin was 20k, and Gohan 25k by the time they are fighting Reacoom. Not that much after, Krilin will be 75k... it makes more sense to me for him to go slowly towards that, rather than going from 10-ish to 70-ish in the span of like what? 2 hours?
I see where you're coming from, but the manga directly states that their battle powers are within the 10,000 range after powering up. I suppose they could've used only as much power as they thought they'd need against Gurdo, but that doesn't really gel with Vegeta warning them to take Gurdo seriously despite his low BP. I do have them jump up to the 20k range when they start fighting Goku-Ginyu though, as that fight kinda necessitates it.

I agree with Freeza's numbers and with Gohan's rage moments. It's best to take the official numbers (the 14 and 15k for Krilin and Gohan, Vegeta's 250 vs Freeza, and Gohan's 200 vs Freeza) as their resting power and not their full power. It's a tricky situation when it comes to the numbers of that whole Freeza vs everybody fight, but yours works just fine.

However, SS Goku and FP Freeza was a pretty close fight for their BPs to be that far apart. Freeza got the upper hand once or twice. I'd have Freeza at 130, if Goku is at 140.
I've had this arguement before, but I never really thought the fight between Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku was all that close. Even after Freeaz powers up to 100%, Goku spends most of the fight taking Freeza's strongest attacks on the chin with a smirk and an "is that the best you got?" attitude. The one time Freeza got the upper hand was when he blindsided Goku with that red energy barrier thing, and unlike the in the anime, Goku got back up almost immediately in the manga.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:29 pm

While I disagree with a lot of the numbers, the format is incredible Daniel. Well done.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:51 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:29 pm While I disagree with a lot of the numbers, the format is incredible Daniel. Well done.
Thanks! :thumbup:
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:37 pm I agree with most of the Namek arc numbers.

Geets MUST have gotten a nap boost, otherwise Jeese is pretty close to Freeza lol. I would have Vegeta lower than 87k vs Jeese, though, given that the space australian didn't explode on impact. His big boost apparently comes from the nap. 250k for Vegeta at rest, and his FP being closer to Freeza's works, too.

I never agreed with Gohan and Krilin's official numbers against the Ginyu Tokusentai. 15k is certain death against a 40k Reacoom, I always preferred them to be already on the 20k-ish. Given Krilin was oneshot against somebody 2x stronger than he was, and also Vegeta thought Goku had arrived but it was actually Gohan.

I'd say Krilin was 20k, and Gohan 25k by the time they are fighting Reacoom. Not that much after, Krilin will be 75k... it makes more sense to me for him to go slowly towards that, rather than going from 10-ish to 70-ish in the span of like what? 2 hours?

I agree with Freeza's numbers and with Gohan's rage moments. It's best to take the official numbers (the 14 and 15k for Krilin and Gohan, Vegeta's 250 vs Freeza, and Gohan's 200 vs Freeza) as their resting power and not their full power. It's a tricky situation when it comes to the numbers of that whole Freeza vs everybody fight, but yours works just fine.

However, SS Goku and FP Freeza was a pretty close fight for their BPs to be that far apart. Freeza got the upper hand once or twice. I'd have Freeza at 130, if Goku is at 140.
Vegeta is a tough one. The senzu should have recovered his stamina, but he still wanted to sleep. He also clearly wanted nothing to do with Goku or Ginyu and hoped they’d kill each other. I think he just didn’t realize he was so strong initially as he slowly unveiled his power.

A bit above 10k is enough for Gohan and Kuririn. Kuririn got casually one shot and Recoome literally breathed away Gohan’s Masenko Superman-style. 25k vs 40k is almost Gohan vs Nappa (2.8k vs 4k), and Nappa made some serious effort punching the Masenko. Recoome made a complete foolery of them. he took them to clown town where they belong.

I like to think the boosts work like Zenkais, manifesting after fights, though I also agree with Daniel that Kuririn’s power was around 5,000 when first unlocked. There’s a couple days of difference between Kuririn and Gohan’s unlocks, and it explains why they were so close despite Gohan’s potential being way deeper.
DanielSSJ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:08 pm I've had this arguement before, but I never really thought the fight between Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku was all that close. Even after Freeaz powers up to 100%, Goku spends most of the fight taking Freeza's strongest attacks on the chin with a smirk and an "is that the best you got?" attitude. The one time Freeza got the upper hand was when he blindsided Goku with that red energy barrier thing, and unlike the in the anime, Goku got back up almost immediately in the manga.
I think that fight was fairly close. Goku managed to outsmart Freeza here and there, but Freeza was bouncing back instantly from Goku’s hits. After the beam struggle Freeza complains he’s lost some power, but their final combat was still fairly before Goku said Freeza was past his peak.

However, I do think 140 vs 125 is still within range, even if on the lower end of it. Personally, I like having Freeza at 144 to Goku’s 150. Goes along with 50% Freeza (72) blocking Goku’s Kamehameha (60+) with one hand.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:01 pm

I'm in the middle of a Buu arc rewatch, and I wonder how strong Shin is supposed to be.

He scares Piccolo away -even though Big Green cannot sense his ki-, narratively the implication is that he is THE god, and the red herring is for us to believe this mysterious guy is super powerful when he is not, he is just important and useless.

In any case, that's up for interpretation, there's nothing absolute about that, one way or the other... however, it cannot get more absolute than Shin being unable to unearth the sword SS Gohan managed to, something no other kaioshin could do*, right?. Pre-ToP base Goku would be between Shin and SS Gohan, at the very least.
Of course, pre-Z sword SS Gohan could oneshot Freeza, probably much weaker Super Saiyans could do that, too. Shit, even Future Trunks did it.
So, how much stronger than Future Trunks would Shin need to be to live up to his hype? and who would be the weakest SS that could get the Z sword out of that stone? SS Gohan didn't struggle much, and he was already below his CG self.


*this opens another can of worms, how come the buff Kaioshin couldn't do it? Grand Kaioshin not doing it makes sense, maybe he knew who put it there and left it alone. I guess the only two kaioshin that were stronger than SS Gohan back then, never tried it, while the rest of them did.

---
What about Dabura and Cell? Vegeta claims Buu's power - after being released and kicking Dabura into a mountain- is below theirs, meaning Initial Fat Buu is weaker than their SS2. Where can we fit SS2 Kid Gohan, then? on par with Initial Fat Buu? Weaker? after all, they both disposed easily of a Cell tier character.
Fat Buu plays SS2 CG Gohan's part, and Dabura as Perfect Cell (rather than as SPC). Unless, the gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and Vegeta is big enough to fit Fat Buu there.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:25 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:01 pm I'm in the middle of a Buu arc rewatch, and I wonder how strong Shin is supposed to be.

He scares Piccolo away -even though Big Green cannot sense his ki-, narratively the implication is that he is THE god, and the red herring is for us to believe this mysterious guy is super powerful when he is not, he is just important and useless.

In any case, that's up for interpretation, there's nothing absolute about that, one way or the other... however, it cannot get more absolute than Shin being unable to unearth the sword SS Gohan managed to, something no other kaioshin could do*, right?. Pre-ToP base Goku would be between Shin and SS Gohan, at the very least.
Of course, pre-Z sword SS Gohan could oneshot Freeza, probably much weaker Super Saiyans could do that, too. Shit, even Future Trunks did it.
So, how much stronger than Future Trunks would Shin need to be to live up to his hype? and who would be the weakest SS that could get the Z sword out of that stone? SS Gohan didn't struggle much, and he was already below his CG self.


*this opens another can of worms, how come the buff Kaioshin couldn't do it? Grand Kaioshin not doing it makes sense, maybe he knew who put it there and left it alone. I guess the only two kaioshin that were stronger than SS Gohan back then, never tried it, while the rest of them did.

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What about Dabura and Cell? Vegeta claims Buu's power - after being released and kicking Dabura into a mountain- is below theirs, meaning Initial Fat Buu is weaker than their SS2. Where can we fit SS2 Kid Gohan, then? on par with Initial Fat Buu? Weaker? after all, they both disposed easily of a Cell tier character.
Fat Buu plays SS2 CG Gohan's part, and Dabura as Perfect Cell (rather than as SPC). Unless, the gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and Vegeta is big enough to fit Fat Buu there.
Shin is way stronger than Piccolo but weaker than SS Teen Gohan so I say he's at CG SS Goku level. Maybe a bit higher.

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Noah
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:44 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:53 pm Admittedly, No.18 isn't quite as strong as No.17, and by extension Piccolo, but I doubt the power difference would be enough to change the outcome, especially considering that Piccolo, unlike No.18, doesn't have infinite stamina.
That got me with something: I remember Future Trunks saying that future androids were more stronger than their present counterparts.

But by how much do you guys have this gap between them? Also do you believe Cell would be stronger if he had the chance to absorb the future androids, but still would be no match for SSJ2 Gohan?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:48 pm

Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:44 pm
DanielSSJ wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:53 pm Admittedly, No.18 isn't quite as strong as No.17, and by extension Piccolo, but I doubt the power difference would be enough to change the outcome, especially considering that Piccolo, unlike No.18, doesn't have infinite stamina.
That got me with something: I remember Future Trunks saying that future androids were more stronger than their present counterparts.

But by how much do you guys have this gap between them? Also do you believe Cell would be stronger if he had the chance to absorb the future androids, but still would be no match for SSJ2 Gohan?
You got it backwards. Present > Future.

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