Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:00 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:47 am
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 1:06 am
MisteryOne wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:55 pm
This just isn't true tho. Their most recent fight in the manga has Blue Goku being equal to Limit Breaker SS4 Xeno Goku, not the vanilla form. They are easy to tell apart by the hair's highlights (never present in the normal SS4, a pretty clever move on Nagayama's part) and it fits with what is shown previously, including their Fusion of Ki form.

It's also worth mentioning that in their first fight back in the Prison Planet in the original arcade Blue Goku was stronger, so that's the easiest way to compare the forms. Also worth noting when talking about the arcade is how much stronger Xeno Goku is compared to his GT version -let's not forget Xeno Gogeta defeated Omega Shenron with just SS1-

It really depends on what version we are talking about, but overall the idea is definetly that the Blue Goku has an advantage on SS4.
Incorrect. You're using three different versions of Heroes that each differ, so that's invalid.

The same people who made the Heroes anime also made GT so if we are going to use SS4 at all the best use would be the anime version since SS4's literal creators are making it, and in the anime it was plain old SS4, and in the anime on the prison planet they tied with SSB v SS4. SS4 does not exist in DBS nor Toriyama's story, and SSB does not exist in GT. Xeno Goku's power compared to GT Goku has nothing to do with CC Goku's power.
Except that the Heroes anime is literally a promotional adaptation anime that omits key elementos of the story. It even omitted Majin Ozotto who was a key player in the Prison Planet and the Universal Conflict arcs. It isn't invalid if two out of the three versions share Blue being stronger, specially when the original story is the arcade one and the others are adaptations and the only one where it isn't true happens to be the shorter one that skips a lot of stuff. So no, what I said isn't "incorrect", all what I stated except the last paragraph is just fact while you are asserting your own assumptions above what the very own material says. Not to mention how plain inconsistent the power levels in the anime version are, but even then, if you are using Heroes to compare, at the very least you have to consider the original arcade story.

Also, if you are only using the anime version, Goku and Vegeta never fought their Xeno versions in the Mock time Chambers. Hell, they were never stated to grow stronger in it, they just worked on being able to transform into UI/ Berserk Controlled at will so bringing that up using your own logic would be irrelevant. They are also not made by the same people, just because Toei makes the promotional anime doesn't mean their staff is nowhere close to the one who made GT- you can easily check them out in the credits! It's a barebones anime meant to promote the actual story of the arcade.

I'm sorry but those last sentences are just plain ridiculous. If you are going by the logic of SS4 not existing in Toriyama's works there was never a point in bringing Heroes up in the first place. The entire point of this is, if you even being the Heroes stuff up, is to use it as a direct comparison. Both Blue and 4 exist in it. And how does it not "have anything to do"? Xeno Goku being massively stronger than GT Goku is important if you are trying to compare his DBS and GT versions which people on this thread were talking about. Heroes is not just showing them facing off, the Xeno version is not just GT.

If you don't want to compare DBS and GT Gokus on the basic principle of them being completely different continuities that's more than fair. But again if you decide to use Heroes to do so, you have to keep in mind you are not just seeing GT Goku there.
Wrong again, it's not omitting anything. it's a different continuity in a different medium. The anime has SS4 equal to SSB.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:22 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:00 pm
MisteryOne wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:47 am
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 1:06 am

Incorrect. You're using three different versions of Heroes that each differ, so that's invalid.

The same people who made the Heroes anime also made GT so if we are going to use SS4 at all the best use would be the anime version since SS4's literal creators are making it, and in the anime it was plain old SS4, and in the anime on the prison planet they tied with SSB v SS4. SS4 does not exist in DBS nor Toriyama's story, and SSB does not exist in GT. Xeno Goku's power compared to GT Goku has nothing to do with CC Goku's power.
Except that the Heroes anime is literally a promotional adaptation anime that omits key elementos of the story. It even omitted Majin Ozotto who was a key player in the Prison Planet and the Universal Conflict arcs. It isn't invalid if two out of the three versions share Blue being stronger, specially when the original story is the arcade one and the others are adaptations and the only one where it isn't true happens to be the shorter one that skips a lot of stuff. So no, what I said isn't "incorrect", all what I stated except the last paragraph is just fact while you are asserting your own assumptions above what the very own material says. Not to mention how plain inconsistent the power levels in the anime version are, but even then, if you are using Heroes to compare, at the very least you have to consider the original arcade story.

Also, if you are only using the anime version, Goku and Vegeta never fought their Xeno versions in the Mock time Chambers. Hell, they were never stated to grow stronger in it, they just worked on being able to transform into UI/ Berserk Controlled at will so bringing that up using your own logic would be irrelevant. They are also not made by the same people, just because Toei makes the promotional anime doesn't mean their staff is nowhere close to the one who made GT- you can easily check them out in the credits! It's a barebones anime meant to promote the actual story of the arcade.

I'm sorry but those last sentences are just plain ridiculous. If you are going by the logic of SS4 not existing in Toriyama's works there was never a point in bringing Heroes up in the first place. The entire point of this is, if you even being the Heroes stuff up, is to use it as a direct comparison. Both Blue and 4 exist in it. And how does it not "have anything to do"? Xeno Goku being massively stronger than GT Goku is important if you are trying to compare his DBS and GT versions which people on this thread were talking about. Heroes is not just showing them facing off, the Xeno version is not just GT.

If you don't want to compare DBS and GT Gokus on the basic principle of them being completely different continuities that's more than fair. But again if you decide to use Heroes to do so, you have to keep in mind you are not just seeing GT Goku there.
Wrong again, it's not omitting anything. it's a different continuity in a different medium. The anime has SS4 equal to SSB.
Lmao, just admit you are wrong. It's literally , oficially a promotional anime. No point in a debate when one person doesn't actually have a counterpoint.
Where is Majin Ozotto in the anime then if he wasn't omitted? What happened to Laggs? What about all the non-animated arcs and their events? This is not like Super when two different mediums go different from an original outline. In Heroes there is an original version and medium. Not to mention, again, the anime is veey inconsistent. Piccolo and A17 defeated someone who Vegeta needed to go Evolution to deal with.

Also again that doesn't change, that even if we go by your faulty logic and use only the anime, Xeno Goku is not the GT one. If you really don't have anything to add, no point in me trying to engage on a conversation any further.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Apr 13, 2023 4:50 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:22 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:00 pm
MisteryOne wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:47 am

Except that the Heroes anime is literally a promotional adaptation anime that omits key elementos of the story. It even omitted Majin Ozotto who was a key player in the Prison Planet and the Universal Conflict arcs. It isn't invalid if two out of the three versions share Blue being stronger, specially when the original story is the arcade one and the others are adaptations and the only one where it isn't true happens to be the shorter one that skips a lot of stuff. So no, what I said isn't "incorrect", all what I stated except the last paragraph is just fact while you are asserting your own assumptions above what the very own material says. Not to mention how plain inconsistent the power levels in the anime version are, but even then, if you are using Heroes to compare, at the very least you have to consider the original arcade story.

Also, if you are only using the anime version, Goku and Vegeta never fought their Xeno versions in the Mock time Chambers. Hell, they were never stated to grow stronger in it, they just worked on being able to transform into UI/ Berserk Controlled at will so bringing that up using your own logic would be irrelevant. They are also not made by the same people, just because Toei makes the promotional anime doesn't mean their staff is nowhere close to the one who made GT- you can easily check them out in the credits! It's a barebones anime meant to promote the actual story of the arcade.

I'm sorry but those last sentences are just plain ridiculous. If you are going by the logic of SS4 not existing in Toriyama's works there was never a point in bringing Heroes up in the first place. The entire point of this is, if you even being the Heroes stuff up, is to use it as a direct comparison. Both Blue and 4 exist in it. And how does it not "have anything to do"? Xeno Goku being massively stronger than GT Goku is important if you are trying to compare his DBS and GT versions which people on this thread were talking about. Heroes is not just showing them facing off, the Xeno version is not just GT.

If you don't want to compare DBS and GT Gokus on the basic principle of them being completely different continuities that's more than fair. But again if you decide to use Heroes to do so, you have to keep in mind you are not just seeing GT Goku there.
Wrong again, it's not omitting anything. it's a different continuity in a different medium. The anime has SS4 equal to SSB.
Lmao, just admit you are wrong. It's literally , oficially a promotional anime. No point in a debate when one person doesn't actually have a counterpoint.
Where is Majin Ozotto in the anime then if he wasn't omitted? What happened to Laggs? What about all the non-animated arcs and their events? This is not like Super when two different mediums go different from an original outline. In Heroes there is an original version and medium. Not to mention, again, the anime is veey inconsistent. Piccolo and A17 defeated someone who Vegeta needed to go Evolution to deal with.

Also again that doesn't change, that even if we go by your faulty logic and use only the anime, Xeno Goku is not the GT one. If you really don't have anything to add, no point in me trying to engage on a conversation any further.
Nope. Anima has different continuity than the manga, same as with arcade. All three have different continuities hence the many differences. You are the one who tried to use all three together. The closest to any real scale you would get with SS4 would come from the anime, because again the people who made GT made the anime. Go argue with somebody who actually falls for your nonsense because is isn't going to work on me.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:48 pm

Let's drop the petulant "no u" back-and-forth now, okay?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:05 pm

List in my signature is 100% finished, as far as the manga is concerned. Might do one for DBS Anime and maybe the old movies later.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:36 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:05 pm List in my signature is 100% finished, as far as the manga is concerned. Might do one for DBS Anime and maybe the old movies later.
1) Don't you think you have a big gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and SS2 Goku/Vegeta? Piccolo couldn't even tell if Vegeta had surpassed Gohan when he fights Boo so the gap should be very small.

2) Piccolo should be over 6 Billion at the ToP since he beat Bergamo, who should still be that universes top fighter like in the anime.

3) Base Goku (and by extension Vegeta) should be way over Shin and the rest of the Kaioshins as shown at the exhibition match.

P.S. You have some errors in the Super section with Goku Black, SSB Goku (Vs Toppo) and Kale having Quadrillion instead of Trillion. You have the opposite error with UI Goku and on the Moro arc you have Majin Boo with Quadrillion instead of Trillion.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:13 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:05 pm List in my signature is 100% finished, as far as the manga is concerned. Might do one for DBS Anime and maybe the old movies later.
I like it. Including Z it's pretty much what I have, with slightly smaller numbers.
BoG, RoF, U6 and most of FT arc as well.
Although, I don't think Vegeta's SS My-Bulma needs to be that much stronger than SS3 Goku. Seems too much for my taste it being 5x SS3, I think twice would do the job just fine, even though I'm more on the 1.25 or 1.5x camp. But 5x seems like a whole new form. I know he did much better vs Beerus than SS3 Goku, but a 2x boost would cover that.

FT arc is where my main gripe is, well, I agree with most of it but with the multiplier for MSSB.
I just think the efficiency of SSB is that bad (the example Toyo used was that it can make you even weaker than a SS! and all due to the drain) and the full, contained power of SSB is that much more effective than regular SSB. Similar to FPSS and SS from the Cell arc but with more detail. We just had never seen the FP of SSB up until vs Zamasu.
The multiplier is up for grabs, we only have that 10x comment that wasn't even that clear, the 50x would rely solely on what a magazine came up with many years ago, but in any case I don't think the narrative and commentary support MSSB being more than just SSB sustained without dropping, even with the Switch, that uses regular SSB to attack for a second but isn't free from the drain. The whole power dropping thing has been present althroughout DBS for several forms.
So, aside of whatever multiplier one can think it provides, SSB and MSSB should be the same, one starts to falter immediately and the other one doesn't, ever.
I think Ponta's power scale would actually help explain this without making MSSB seem it's SSB's next step.

Agreed on the Moro arc, Vegeta didn't surpass Goku's power, the context and the battles support your scaling, he only outheroed him.

However, how come Beerus and the other GoDs were ranked on Jiren and Goku's level from the ToP, surpassed by Moro, Gas, Granola, etc... when Beerus, at least, is suppossed to remain on top? I mean, outta control Kale is 36 Q, while Beerus is 15, and Black Freeza is 750 Q.

TL;DR: I think it works, I have smaller numbers and multipliers, but bigger base forms, for the Granny arc I'd have them, in base, as strong as post-Rosat SS. But at the beginning of the Moro arc, similar to yours.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:57 pm

I don't see how SSB and CSSB aren't different multipliers. Not only did Vegeta get one shotted immediately by Fused Zamasu but the latter is confirmed to have a big fusion boost by official complementary material.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:57 pm I don't see how SSB and CSSB aren't different multipliers. Not only did Vegeta get one shotted immediately by Fused Zamasu but the latter is confirmed to have a big fusion boost by official complementary material.
Vegeta had been using bursts of SSB (with aura) to fight Black, got oneshot as SSG, and tried SSB alone and got OS again. It had already been shown in the previous arc and at the early parts of this one just how problematic the form is on its own. SSB's actual potence was never used, that's why they had to master the form... they have been pushing the unmastered-SSB-sucks angle since Hit entered the scene.

In any case, Goku would be the best comparison, he was fresher, not as drained as Vegeta, and he was not oneshot.
It's the same form but used more efficiently, why would it require another multiplier?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:41 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:47 pm Vegeta had been using bursts of SSB (with aura) to fight Black, got oneshot as SSG, and tried SSB alone and got OS again. It had already been shown in the previous arc and at the early parts of this one just how problematic the form is on its own. SSB's actual potence was never used, that's why they had to master the form... they have been pushing the unmastered-SSB-sucks angle since Hit entered the scene.

In any case, Goku would be the best comparison, he was fresher, not as drained as Vegeta, and he was not oneshot.
It's the same form but used more efficiently, why would it require another multiplier?
Goku mentioned that Vegeta didn't lose any stamina when using the switch technique. The thing is, it's not the same form. It was made clear in the next arc by Vegeta's fight with Beerus. Look how easily Beerus catches Vegeta's punch at the start of the fight and how the fight progresses once Vegeta turns CSSB. They can't have the same multiplier.

Also funny you mentioned Goku being fresher because he was actually the one worse off since he used the Mafuba. Trunks even mentions he shouldn't have enough energy to stay in SSB.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:36 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:05 pm List in my signature is 100% finished, as far as the manga is concerned. Might do one for DBS Anime and maybe the old movies later.
1) Don't you think you have a big gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and SS2 Goku/Vegeta? Piccolo couldn't even tell if Vegeta had surpassed Gohan when he fights Boo so the gap should be very small.

2) Piccolo should be over 6 Billion at the ToP since he beat Bergamo, who should still be that universes top fighter like in the anime.

3) Base Goku (and by extension Vegeta) should be way over Shin and the rest of the Kaioshins as shown at the exhibition match.

P.S. You have some errors in the Super section with Goku Black, SSB Goku (Vs Toppo) and Kale having Quadrillion instead of Trillion. You have the opposite error with UI Goku and on the Moro arc you have Majin Boo with Quadrillion instead of Trillion.
1) Nah, 1.1x is the perfect spot. It's not that close since Vegeta noticed the difference right away.

2) I'm not sure if Bergamo is that universe's strongest. That big guy and the green fishface were giving Frost a lot of trouble and the whole Trio De Dangers decided to run away after seeing him beat everyone else at once.

3) I've always gone back and forth with it, but my latest debate with HugoBoss had me going for the lower side. It's often agreed that Kaioshins are physically very weak since they're not fighters.

Oops, thanks lol. I'll be correcting all that.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:13 pm I like it. Including Z it's pretty much what I have, with slightly smaller numbers.
BoG, RoF, U6 and most of FT arc as well.
Although, I don't think Vegeta's SS My-Bulma needs to be that much stronger than SS3 Goku. Seems too much for my taste it being 5x SS3, I think twice would do the job just fine, even though I'm more on the 1.25 or 1.5x camp. But 5x seems like a whole new form. I know he did much better vs Beerus than SS3 Goku, but a 2x boost would cover that.

FT arc is where my main gripe is, well, I agree with most of it but with the multiplier for MSSB.
I just think the efficiency of SSB is that bad (the example Toyo used was that it can make you even weaker than a SS! and all due to the drain) and the full, contained power of SSB is that much more effective than regular SSB. Similar to FPSS and SS from the Cell arc but with more detail. We just had never seen the FP of SSB up until vs Zamasu.
The multiplier is up for grabs, we only have that 10x comment that wasn't even that clear, the 50x would rely solely on what a magazine came up with many years ago, but in any case I don't think the narrative and commentary support MSSB being more than just SSB sustained without dropping, even with the Switch, that uses regular SSB to attack for a second but isn't free from the drain. The whole power dropping thing has been present althroughout DBS for several forms.
So, aside of whatever multiplier one can think it provides, SSB and MSSB should be the same, one starts to falter immediately and the other one doesn't, ever.
I think Ponta's power scale would actually help explain this without making MSSB seem it's SSB's next step.

Agreed on the Moro arc, Vegeta didn't surpass Goku's power, the context and the battles support your scaling, he only outheroed him.

However, how come Beerus and the other GoDs were ranked on Jiren and Goku's level from the ToP, surpassed by Moro, Gas, Granola, etc... when Beerus, at least, is suppossed to remain on top? I mean, outta control Kale is 36 Q, while Beerus is 15, and Black Freeza is 750 Q.

TL;DR: I think it works, I have smaller numbers and multipliers, but bigger base forms, for the Granny arc I'd have them, in base, as strong as post-Rosat SS. But at the beginning of the Moro arc, similar to yours.
Going by BoGs alone I would've given Vegeta a 10x boost (2.5x SSJ3 Goku), but in the Black Saga it actually looks like a different form. He's beating up SSJ Black, and Base Black was enough to made a fool out of SSJ2 Trunks who rivaled SSJ3 Goku.

I wouldn't say the 50x was just a magazine. It's in the name - Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan - although the tournament definitely suggests something like 5x or maybe even 2x. I think what I did.

Sure PSSJB is just SSJB without the drain, but it might as well be a different form. Their power falls instantly and they can't use any of it, even in bursts. Just transforming and having an aura eats up a ton of power, and I guess that sort of mirrors the lessons Whis was giving them in the anime RoF Saga. Vegeta vs Beerus is a great example: SSJB Vegeta's very first punch was a solid one, but after that he only gets worse. When he whips out PSSJB, he does better than ever, and even lands a solid punch on him.

Kale was actually a typo lol. She's 36T, below even Kefla. Beerus is a bit tricky... But he did teach Vegeta UE, so he can also get as strong as he wants since his mind "is always on destruction". I was going to add a level for this "UE" Beerus in the Granolah Saga, but decided against it since his power would be a complete shot in the dark.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:14 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:47 pm 1) Nah, 1.1x is the perfect spot. It's not that close since Vegeta noticed the difference right away.

2) I'm not sure if Bergamo is that universe's strongest. That big guy and the green fishface were giving Frost a lot of trouble and the whole Trio De Dangers decided to run away after seeing him beat everyone else at once.

3) I've always gone back and forth with it, but my latest debate with HugoBoss had me going for the lower side. It's often agreed that Kaioshins are physically very weak since they're not fighters.

Oops, thanks lol. I'll be correcting all that.
1) You would think Piccolo would have better sensing capabilities since he was a god but I guess he was having an off day.
2) It just gave me the impression the Trio de Danger where the strongest since they are on the front of the team when they group together. I guess it's not as clear cut in the manga.
3) Nah, Whis was pretty clear with the comparison. No physical weakness was said, it was about power.

No problem.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:21 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:14 pm 1) You would think Piccolo would have better sensing capabilities since he was a god but I guess he was having an off day.
2) It just gave me the impression the Trio de Danger where the strongest since they are on the front of the team when they group together. I guess it's not as clear cut in the manga.
3) Nah, Whis was pretty clear with the comparison. No physical weakness was said, it was about power.

No problem.
1) To be fair, he sensed Gohan's power several years ago. Babidi's spell disguising the Ki of his minions probably made it harder too. I'm surprised he could sense Vegeta at all.

2) Well, they are the main characters of that universe. That's probably why they're front and center.

3) But it is about power. He's like Dende: Has a huge Ki, but not for fighting. Goku even considered Satan a better fusion match than Dende. The only time Shin fights he only uses psychic abilities like paralysis and Kiais.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:28 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:21 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:14 pm 1) You would think Piccolo would have better sensing capabilities since he was a god but I guess he was having an off day.
2) It just gave me the impression the Trio de Danger where the strongest since they are on the front of the team when they group together. I guess it's not as clear cut in the manga.
3) Nah, Whis was pretty clear with the comparison. No physical weakness was said, it was about power.

No problem.
1) To be fair, he sensed Gohan's power several years ago. Babidi's spell disguising the Ki of his minions probably made it harder too. I'm surprised he could sense Vegeta at all.

2) Well, they are the main characters of that universe. That's probably why they're front and center.

3) But it is about power. He's like Dende: Has a huge Ki, but not for fighting. Goku even considered Satan a better fusion match than Dende. The only time Shin fights he only uses psychic abilities like paralysis and Kiais.
1) So did Goku and Vegeta and they seem to remember exactly how strong Gohan was very well.
2) I guess.
3) I assume Dende was the worse choice because of his body not power and Satan was considered but Goku did say it might lower his power which he never said for Dende. I read the Super chapter again and it's very straight forward. Whis says the roar is powerful enough to knock out someone on at the level of a Kaioshin. Nothing about endurance or body type is said so base Goku is simply stronger than the Kaioshin level.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:30 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:28 pm I read the Super chapter again and it's very straight forward. Whis says the roar is powerful enough to knock out someone on at the level of a Kaioshin. Nothing about endurance or body type is said so base Goku is simply stronger than the Kaioshin level.
I think Boo arc already established that Kaioshin and Kibito had combat power inferior to Base Saiyans. What makes them tough are their Jedi powers.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:43 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:30 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:28 pm I read the Super chapter again and it's very straight forward. Whis says the roar is powerful enough to knock out someone on at the level of a Kaioshin. Nothing about endurance or body type is said so base Goku is simply stronger than the Kaioshin level.
I think Boo arc already established that Kaioshin and Kibito had combat power inferior to Base Saiyans. What makes them tough are their Jedi powers.
Kibito was but not Shin. He's been stated in both manga and official guidebooks as being stronger than Piccolo so that puts him in the Super Saiyan tier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:42 pm

I can’t for the life of me actually imagine Shin punching Piccolo down, but those Kiais he used against Boo would turn him into pea soup. That’s sort of the point, and why Dende is a proper comparison. He has Ki, but not physical strength. But both are considered power, so Whis’ explanation works.

I guess the best comparison is back way before Z. Goku always dodged bullets from the RRA Army, but the weaker Bora could outright tank then. And not an endurance thing but Goku and Kuririn could push a giant boulder that Roshi couldn’t.


On the Majin Vegeta thing, Vegeta is more obsessed with strength than Piccolo. He could even tell Gohan was weaker just by walking past him. I’m sure he remembers it better than Piccolo. And the Majin Ki thing is also another reason Piccolo is unsure. Toriyama wouldn’t have Goku/Vegeta > Gohan just to cast doubt in it a couple chapters after.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:43 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:30 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:28 pm I read the Super chapter again and it's very straight forward. Whis says the roar is powerful enough to knock out someone on at the level of a Kaioshin. Nothing about endurance or body type is said so base Goku is simply stronger than the Kaioshin level.
I think Boo arc already established that Kaioshin and Kibito had combat power inferior to Base Saiyans. What makes them tough are their Jedi powers.
Kibito was but not Shin. He's been stated in both manga and official guidebooks as being stronger than Piccolo so that puts him in the Super Saiyan tier.
Shin and Kibito aren’t capable of lifting the Z Sword, but Gohan can, even without Super Saiyan. Though a fight is a different matter. Shin can beat Piccolo because he has those special powers, which Piccolo has no counter.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:56 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 pm Shin and Kibito aren’t capable of lifting the Z Sword, but Gohan can, even without Super Saiyan. Though a fight is a different matter. Shin can beat Piccolo because he has those special powers, which Piccolo has no counter.
Shin never tries...

Also Shin's superiority to Piccolo has never mentioned special techniques or the like. It's straight up stated as strength or power in Daizenshuu.
His strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo, but he was still the weakest out of the five Kaioshins who used to exist. He was beaten up to the verge of death by Majin Buu both before and after Buu's revival.
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Sensing a tremendous gap in their powers at Shin's fearless smile, Piccolo withdraws soon after the match begins.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:56 pm

I respect the Daizenshuu’s take, but I think it’s merely based on Piccolo’s controversial response to his friends after he dropped his match against Shin, which you can figure it was because of the memory he had when he was Earth’s God. So, the most likely explanation is that he withdrew out of respect, something he wouldn’t do when he was King Piccolo.

The point of Shin’s character was that he wasn’t as powerful as it was initially thought. For instance, Piccolo could easily deal with Babidi, while Shin would have a little of trouble. It depends on his match ups.

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