Strength Checker

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:03 pm

The statement shows that Kaioshin didn't remember about his ability to absorb light until he saw it. He doesn't show detailed knowledge on Yakon, meaning that he didn't know much about him, and he couldn't know what to expect since he is a magical beast, which would explain why he was so cautious. It also doesn't make sense for him to be weaker than Yakon, since he is stronger than Piccolo, and Piccolo can't be below the base Saiyans.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Staying on the sidelines is not being cautious. The whole reason he's having a panic attack in the first place is because he doesn't want Goku to get hurt and send energy to Majin Boo. Cautious would be shooting a Ki blast at Yakon and killing him there instead of standing around and potentially letting Goku get hurt.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:39 pm

Yakon was never described as a "magical beast" in the original dialogue. Kaioshin just calls him a "demon beast" there. Is there something I'm missing?

But even if he is a magical creature, so is Dabra. Kaioshin knew his capabilities and the fact that he's the strongest in the demon realm. Why wouldn't he know how powerful Yakon is?
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Herms » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:01 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Yakon was never described as a "magical beast" in the original dialogue. Kaioshin just calls him a "demon beast" there. Is there something I'm missing?
Different ways of translating the same word: 魔獣/majuu (same thing with 魔人/majin being "demon man" or "magic man"). Which one is more appropriate depends on context, but in Yakon's case it's tricky because we know hardly anything about him besides Kaioshin calling him a majuu.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:22 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Staying on the sidelines is not being cautious. The whole reason he's having a panic attack in the first place is because he doesn't want Goku to get hurt and send energy to Majin Boo. Cautious would be shooting a Ki blast at Yakon and killing him there instead of standing around and potentially letting Goku get hurt.
Saying "let's attack him together!" when he is weak enough to be beaten by base Goku & Gohan, not to mention a Super Saiyan, is cautious.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:But even if he is a magical creature, so is Dabra. Kaioshin knew his capabilities and the fact that he's the strongest in the demon realm. Why wouldn't he know how powerful Yakon is?
Why would he know how powerful Yakon was? Just because he knows a lot about Dabra, who happens to be a big figure in the universe unlike Yakon, doesn't mean he knows a lot about everyone. He didn't recognize Yakon on first sight & he wasn't even sure if that was him, and he had even forgot that he eats light energy until he saw it again. For all he knew, Yakon could have been stronger than he had shown, and he may had more abilities than he knew. In the end, it turned out that Yakon was much, much weaker than a Super Saiyan, while Kaioshin is much stronger than Piccolo & only realized that he was surpassed by the 3 Saiyans when he saw SS2 Goku & Gohan, and became aware that Vegeta was about that strong as well.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:27 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Saying "let's attack him together!" when he is weak enough to be beaten by base Goku & Gohan, not to mention a Super Saiyan, is cautious.
No it's not. If Kaioshin is strong enough to take care of Yakon himself, it's not cautious to stand around asking for help when it's not required.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:28 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Saying "let's attack him together!" when he is weak enough to be beaten by base Goku & Gohan, not to mention a Super Saiyan, is cautious.
No it's not. If Kaioshin is strong enough to take care of Yakon himself, it's not cautious to stand around asking for help when it's not required.
But was Kaioshin strong enough to take care of Yakon by himself? That's what he didn't know.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:35 pm

He can sense Goku's base power. He sees Yakon going toe-to-toe with Goku, maybe Yakon having a slight edge (or Goku; regardless they're nearly the same strength). With that, he'd be able to tell if he was stronger than Yakon going on what he senses from Base Goku (and going by Yakon's movements).

So, if Kaioshin > Base Goku ~ Yakon, Kaioshin would know he's stronger and step in, but instead insists on Gohan and Vegeta helping him.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:36 pm

Why wouldn't he know how strong he is? He recognized him enough to accurately state who he was, so that's not an issue.

Also, Kaioshin only remembered that Dabra could turn people into stone with his saliva upon seeing it, so one could also say he also forgot about that ability until he saw it again. Just because he's forgetful doesn't mean he's totally ignorant to their power. He obviously had previous knowledge of Yakon and considered him dangerous right outta the gate. When taking Bobbidi's spell into consideration, he'd be expecting Yakon to be more powerful and dreadful than ever. The fact that he suggests "We must strike together" strongly implies he can't defeat Yakon alone.

Kaioshin's weaker than the Super Saiyans, too. He could potentially be weaker than Base Goku and Vegeta as well.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:42 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:He can sense Goku's base power. He sees Yakon going toe-to-toe with Goku, maybe Yakon having a slight edge (or Goku; regardless they're nearly the same strength). With that, he'd be able to tell if he was stronger than Yakon going on what he senses from Base Goku (and going by Yakon's movements).
He just saw Yakon making one attack. You are assuming that this was enough for Kaioshin to measure Yakon's power, especially when he isn't thinking clearly. If he was thinking clearly, like Gohan, he should have realized that Goku was more than enough for him. And in the end, Yakon's feats place him below Kaioshin.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:44 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He just saw Yakon making one attack. You are assuming that this was enough for Kaioshin to measure Yakon's power, especially when he isn't thinking clearly. If he was thinking clearly, like Gohan, he should have realized that Goku was more than enough for him. And in the end, Yakon's feats place him below Kaioshin.
One attack would be enough, since the attack clearly shows Yakon keeping Goku on his feet, placing Yakon in Base Goku's general tier.

Where was it said he wasn't thinking clearly? That sounds like an excuse to rationalize his fear of guys that Base Saiyans can beat.

What feats does Kaioshin have to place him above Yakon? I don't recall anything impressive from him.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:53 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:One attack would be enough, since the attack clearly shows Yakon keeping Goku on his feet, placing Yakon in Base Goku's general tier.
That's what you are assuming. Gohan & Goku came to different conclusions from Kaioshin after watching the same attack.
Where was it said he wasn't thinking clearly? That sounds like an excuse to rationalize his fear of guys that Base Saiyans can beat.
He was clearly in panic the whole time and scared that they would get damaged & send energy to Boo, which was something he wanted to prevent at all costs.
What feats does Kaioshin have to place him above Yakon? I don't recall anything impressive from him.
He was strong enough to make Piccolo forfeit from their match, he was capable of holding SS2 Gohan with his powers, and he only realized that he was surpassed by beings of the lower world when he got a taste of SS2 Goku, realized that Gohan may not had been at full power in the tournament, and heard Vegeta saying that he is stronger than Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:03 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:That's what you are assuming. Gohan & Goku came to different conclusions from Kaioshin after watching the same attack.
Gohan knew Goku could turn Super Saiyan if necessary, and Goku knows this also. Kaioshin seemed unaware of how Super Saiyan/2 worked until after Goku's SS2 burst at Yakon.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He was clearly in panic the whole time and scared that they would get damaged & send energy to Boo, which was something he wanted to prevent at all costs.
You're correct he wanted to prevent Boo's resurrection at all costs, so him not even trying anything against Yakon shows inferiority. He's in panic, that doesn't mean his brain completely turns off.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He was strong enough to make Piccolo forfeit from their match
Seemed more like his status, if anything. Piccolo stated he didn't know why he was so afraid of Kaioshin, not that he feared Kaioshin's strength. Besides, he entered the tournament knowing Goku/Gohan/Vegeta were entering, so it's not like he wasn't already expecting strong enemies or anything.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:he was capable of holding SS2 Gohan with his powers
Magic, not Ki. All he's ever shown with magic is restraint and materialization, the former is pretty much pointless without a stronger partner to attack if Kaioshin's too weak to actually physically hurt his opponent.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:and he only realized that he was surpassed by beings of the lower world when he got a taste of SS2 Goku, realized that Gohan may not had been at full power in the tournament, and heard Vegeta saying that he is stronger than Gohan.
I don't see how this proves he wasn't surpassed before. Roshi only noted Goku may be stronger than himself during the Uranai Baba arc despite a much weaker Goku matching, if not having a super tiny power advantage against himself back at the 21st TB.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:13 pm

Better take this to its appropriate thread: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 3&start=20
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Miracles » Sun May 28, 2017 5:32 pm

Shouldn't Vegeta scolding Goku for holding back Super Saiyan 3 in their fight as Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu saga be put there as a strength checker two?
They were even as Super Saiyan 2 but shuldn't it be noted that Goku was holding back?

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by TobyS » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:09 pm

I'd like to try and make a strength checker for Xenoverse 1 & 2.
I've found several play through videos online but unfortunately they all miss a lot of the dialogue from within mission.

Does anyone know where I can find scripts of the games?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by TobyS » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:06 pm

Can't seem to edit my prev post but:

Largely Pointless but I've made a sort of strength checker for Xenoverse 2 (and hope to add 1 as well).

It includes probably too much story synopsis but it felt the scene setting context was needed to make the strength statements mean anything.

For example if a character says " I have the power to kill all of you" you kind of need to explain who is there that is included and it's relevant if someone was there earlier but left...

So it left it quite difficult as characters pop in an out of battles for narrative reasons fucking loads in XV.

But basically this should include story mode strength statements. Maybe I'll strip it down more some day.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I1I ... 2YEQ0/edit
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Olympian » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:05 pm

So I just came across online about Toryama considering Jaco his favorite character across his many works but that got me thinking since I didn`t saw ROF when it came out or his manga.

I`m aware he likes to be considered "Elite" and he fought the Freeza army but how strong is he supposed to be?
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:08 pm

Olympian wrote:So I just came across online about Toryama considering Jaco his favorite character across his many works but that got me thinking since I didn`t saw ROF when it came out or his manga.

I`m aware he likes to be considered "Elite" and he fought the Freeza army but how strong is he supposed to be?
Weaker than an adult Saiyan so probably sub-1,000.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Olympian » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:00 am

Huh, I wasn`t expecting it to be that low. I know you shouldn`t listen to trolls (generally speaking) but reading how he was far stronger than Chiatzu and Yamcha because of ROF made me wonder since I never followed the character in any capacity.

I need to catch up earlier Super to see what the character is about other than being space cop.
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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