The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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ZombieVito
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:30 am

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:53 pm
Except Piccolo already tried to make a Makankosappo in the beginning of that exact same episode and it was a lot weaker despite it getting charged for exactly the same amount of time as the other one.

Also Base Goku was able to stand up in the black hole while 17 couldn't. That's why I said he outperformed him.
The time on the episode means nothing. Gohan said Piccolo didn't finish gathering energy for the attack so the attack wasn't ready. It's as simple as that.

Goku has experience with higher gravity, the Androids don't. I see nothing wrong with this.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm
Goku had Halo Zamasu beaten pretty badly and crying for more power in the very Goku Black Saga and somehow fought evenly with SSJ1 Kefla in the ToP. Broly movie seems a bit late, specially when it’s the one “saga” with no notable power ups from Goku.
Beat pretty badly? No such thing happened.

Goku used a beyond limits Kamehameha (That wrecked his arms) and the Kaioken x10 to do some damage. Without those, Zamasu beats SSB Goku very easily as seen in the very same episode. Zamasu got worried they even harmed him so he used his Light of Justice to go Corrupted and secure the victory.

Kefla's dialogue implies she was holding back but even still, Goku used the Kaioken (Again) to perform beyond the Blue Tier.
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:32 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:15 pm
If Saonel, Pilina, and Piccolo all fused together (and they had time to maximize the power of their fusion), who is the strongest character they could beat?
I'd imagine they would beat anyone below true blue tier in the ToP. But no one of Blue tier. Genuine Blue tier. Like, not Gohan pushed back Koichiarator blue tier, but Golden Freeza 'blue' tier.

Oof many tiers :lol:
But without Piccolo they were already low Blue tier since Gohan was having trouble with them. Having both of them fuse along with Piccolo, I can't see anyone on the Blue tier not getting one shotted.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:46 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:30 am
DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:53 pm
Except Piccolo already tried to make a Makankosappo in the beginning of that exact same episode and it was a lot weaker despite it getting charged for exactly the same amount of time as the other one.

Also Base Goku was able to stand up in the black hole while 17 couldn't. That's why I said he outperformed him.
The time on the episode means nothing. Gohan said Piccolo didn't finish gathering energy for the attack so the attack wasn't ready. It's as simple as that.

Goku has experience with higher gravity, the Androids don't. I see nothing wrong with this.
Yet ye was able to gather more energy (enough to seriously damage both Ultimate Gohan Tier namekians) in just a few more SECONDS than the first time he tried it in the exact same episode? If this doesn't sound ridiculous to you, I don't know what will.

C'mon, are you kidding right now? Android 17 should be leagues above a TIRED BASE Goku. He should've been able to at least stand up there, but he couldn't. It's by far the weakest 17 has ever looked in the ToP.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:06 am

I see it more like Goku was already summoning his Super Saiyan Blue power when he was getting up, which may explain why 17 and 18 weren’t able to follow him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:22 am

dragonball0900 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:17 pm
I have to agree with you that Androids 17 and 18 do have comparable power. People usually refuse to accept that 18 managed to get close to 17's strength in the manga, when plenty of information tells us that was the case. Moro was impressed by both of them, which meant 17 and 18 are now on the same tier, with Piccolo being much stronger than them, and Gohan being even stronger.
I think the only nebulous question now is who's stronger between Gohan and current Mr. Boo. Piccolo said Gohan was the strongest fighter on Earth, but Boo was technically off-world and they hadn't seen how strong he had gotten.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Peach » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:54 pm

Janemba vs. Super Buu

Raditz and Nappa (with the artificial moon technique) vs. Zarbon and Dodoria

Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz (with tails and artificial moons) vs. The Ginyu Force

King Cold and Mecha Frieza vs. Android 19 and Dr. Gero

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Peach wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:54 pm
Janemba vs. Super Buu

Raditz and Nappa (with the artificial moon technique) vs. Zarbon and Dodoria

Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz (with tails and artificial moons) vs. The Ginyu Force

King Cold and Mecha Frieza vs. Android 19 and Dr. Gero
1) I'd say Janemba but a tough fight with a lot of hax involved. In overall I think it will be a battle of attrition and reality warping seems to be far more versatile in offense and defense than regen.
2) Raditz gets stomped even as a Great Ape, Nappa has some good chances to 1v1 some meber, Vegeta carries the team, but Ginyu will ultimately be the victor, even if Vegeta somehow manages to kill all the other ginyu force members.
3) Vegeta was more powerful than Trunks as a Super Saiyan and both took out their respective enemies disgustingly easily. So if I were to quantify it, I'd think that the second duo of enemies is somewhat stronger than the last and the androids have some hax too. Mid diff the androids.

Battle of the Galactic Patrolmen!!
  • Transformed Sealas (Final Form) vs Merus (Angel powers)
We've seen Merus, and for context on Sealas he battled against SS4 Gogeta, Chronoa (Power of Time Unleashed) and some extras, which speaks pretty end-tier power to me.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:03 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:59 pm
  • Transformed Sealas (Final Form) vs Merus (Angel powers)
We've seen Merus, and for context on Sealas he battled against SS4 Gogeta, Chronoa (Power of Time Unleashed) and some extras, which speaks pretty end-tier power to me.
Has he battled any Super characters so we have a better gauge of his power? When comparing GT with Super, fans normally assume GT is either astronomically weaker or astronomically stronger. Either way, as an angel, Merus is likely too much for him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:03 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:59 pm
  • Transformed Sealas (Final Form) vs Merus (Angel powers)
We've seen Merus, and for context on Sealas he battled against SS4 Gogeta, Chronoa (Power of Time Unleashed) and some extras, which speaks pretty end-tier power to me.
Has he battled any Super characters so we have a better gauge of his power? When comparing GT with Super, fans normally assume GT is either astronomically weaker or astronomically stronger. Either way, as an angel, Merus is likely too much for him.
It was Xeno Gogeta iirc and although he hasn't been compared to Super exactly, Heroes seems to follow the idea that Super's Blue Fusions are on the same level as Xeno SS4 Fusions. So at least based on that what would you say? (ofc gotta take in account if you believe that Blue Fusion = MUI).
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:14 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:03 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:59 pm
  • Transformed Sealas (Final Form) vs Merus (Angel powers)
We've seen Merus, and for context on Sealas he battled against SS4 Gogeta, Chronoa (Power of Time Unleashed) and some extras, which speaks pretty end-tier power to me.
Has he battled any Super characters so we have a better gauge of his power? When comparing GT with Super, fans normally assume GT is either astronomically weaker or astronomically stronger. Either way, as an angel, Merus is likely too much for him.
It was Xeno Gogeta iirc and although he hasn't been compared to Super exactly, Heroes seems to follow the idea that Super's Blue Fusions are on the same level as Xeno SS4 Fusions. So at least based on that what would you say? (ofc gotta take in account if you believe that Blue Fusion = MUI).
If he's comparable to Xeno Gogeta, then that makes him comparable to Blue Gogeta. I'd still place Merus far above both MUI Goku and the fusions. He not only has ultra instinct but every other angel ability that Whis has, such as rewinding time for example.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:14 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:03 pm


Has he battled any Super characters so we have a better gauge of his power? When comparing GT with Super, fans normally assume GT is either astronomically weaker or astronomically stronger. Either way, as an angel, Merus is likely too much for him.
It was Xeno Gogeta iirc and although he hasn't been compared to Super exactly, Heroes seems to follow the idea that Super's Blue Fusions are on the same level as Xeno SS4 Fusions. So at least based on that what would you say? (ofc gotta take in account if you believe that Blue Fusion = MUI).
If he's comparable to Xeno Gogeta, then that makes him comparable to Blue Gogeta. I'd still place Merus far above both MUI Goku and the fusions. He not only has ultra instinct but every other angel ability that Whis has, such as rewinding time for example.
Is that a guess? I mean I don't have an issue with it, but should an Angel trainee rly be able to manipulate time? I'd imagine it would be a power presented with his full introduction into angelic attendancy.

Also people bring up how UI Moro was at worst on par with Goku which would suggest Merus isn't actually that much stronger. What do you say?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 pm
Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:14 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm


It was Xeno Gogeta iirc and although he hasn't been compared to Super exactly, Heroes seems to follow the idea that Super's Blue Fusions are on the same level as Xeno SS4 Fusions. So at least based on that what would you say? (ofc gotta take in account if you believe that Blue Fusion = MUI).
If he's comparable to Xeno Gogeta, then that makes him comparable to Blue Gogeta. I'd still place Merus far above both MUI Goku and the fusions. He not only has ultra instinct but every other angel ability that Whis has, such as rewinding time for example.
Is that a guess? I mean I don't have an issue with it, but should an Angel trainee rly be able to manipulate time? I'd imagine it would be a power presented with his full introduction into angelic attendancy.

Also people bring up how UI Moro was at worst on par with Goku which would suggest Merus isn't actually that much stronger. What do you say?
Merus seemed capable of using every angel ability. He had access to the ring and the staff, he could materialize clothing, he was able to open up Moro's barrier with his staff, use "sealing" abilities, it's legitimate to think he can use other angel powers, too.

It is likely that the three are comparable in strength, but Merus would still come out as the victor due to more combat experience and dexterity and his abilities. Nevertheless, MUI users are likely a step above Blue/SS4 fusions.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:32 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:29 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 pm
Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:14 pm


If he's comparable to Xeno Gogeta, then that makes him comparable to Blue Gogeta. I'd still place Merus far above both MUI Goku and the fusions. He not only has ultra instinct but every other angel ability that Whis has, such as rewinding time for example.
Is that a guess? I mean I don't have an issue with it, but should an Angel trainee rly be able to manipulate time? I'd imagine it would be a power presented with his full introduction into angelic attendancy.

Also people bring up how UI Moro was at worst on par with Goku which would suggest Merus isn't actually that much stronger. What do you say?
Merus seemed capable of using every angel ability. He had access to the ring and the staff, he could materialize clothing, he was able to open up Moro's barrier with his staff, use "sealing" abilities, it's legitimate to think he can use other angel powers, too.

It is likely that the three are comparable in strength, but Merus would still come out as the victor due to more combat experience and dexterity and his abilities. Nevertheless, MUI users are likely a step above Blue/SS4 fusions.
Fair, we also have to see if Merus retains UI now that he is mortal. That would answer a lot (whether he is that strong without his angel powers and Moro just copied MUI but was unable to use it and got wrecked like ToP Goku on a bigger scale). Which wouldn't necesserarily mean that he copied an Angel's powers.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:20 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:46 am
Yet ye was able to gather more energy (enough to seriously damage both Ultimate Gohan Tier namekians) in just a few more SECONDS than the first time he tried it in the exact same episode? If this doesn't sound ridiculous to you, I don't know what will.

C'mon, are you kidding right now? Android 17 should be leagues above a TIRED BASE Goku. He should've been able to at least stand up there, but he couldn't. It's by far the weakest 17 has ever looked in the ToP.
What part of limit breaking attacks don't you get? They don't give a fuck about time.

Power means absolutely nothing when it comes to gravity. Kid Trunks was hundreds of times stronger than Ginyu arc Goku and yet he couldn't even move properly at the same gravity (100 times).

Also this:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:06 am
I see it more like Goku was already summoning his Super Saiyan Blue power when he was getting up, which may explain why 17 and 18 weren’t able to follow him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:27 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:20 pm
DestructoDisc wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:46 am
Yet ye was able to gather more energy (enough to seriously damage both Ultimate Gohan Tier namekians) in just a few more SECONDS than the first time he tried it in the exact same episode? If this doesn't sound ridiculous to you, I don't know what will.

C'mon, are you kidding right now? Android 17 should be leagues above a TIRED BASE Goku. He should've been able to at least stand up there, but he couldn't. It's by far the weakest 17 has ever looked in the ToP.
What part of limit breaking attacks don't you get? They don't give a fuck about time.

Power means absolutely nothing when it comes to gravity. Kid Trunks was hundreds of times stronger than Ginyu arc Goku and yet he couldn't even move properly at the same gravity (100 times).

Also this:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:06 am
I see it more like Goku was already summoning his Super Saiyan Blue power when he was getting up, which may explain why 17 and 18 weren’t able to follow him.
Well, they should. It makes no sense that in like 30 seconds he was able to perform a limit breaking attack out of nowhere.

It was stupid with Trunks and it is even more stupid now.

If Goku was already summoning SSJB then he should've been, you know, SSJB right then and there, not a few seconds after he already stood up in his tired base form.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:33 am

DestructoDisc wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:27 am
Well, they should. It makes no sense that in like 30 seconds he was able to perform a limit breaking attack out of nowhere.

It was stupid with Trunks and it is even more stupid now.

If Goku was already summoning SSJB then he should've been, you know, SSJB right then and there, not a few seconds after he already stood up in his tired base form.
If Goku can, why not him? As recent as the Moro arc a tired Blue Goku was able to destroy Moro's (Who is stronger than a GoD) arm with a Kamehameha that was charged quick. Hell, I just remembered that Piccolo, when he fought Frost did the same thing as the ToP. The Makankosappo that destroyed Vados barrier was charged in seconds since the energy he gathered during most of the fight was lost in order to grab Frost. The sooner you accept that Ki attacks don't follow strick rules and can be bent to the plot, the less headaches you will have.

It is what it is. Another example is the humans on Kaio's planet. Tenshinhan and Yamcha were stronger than Bubbles yet they had problems with the gravity there (Yamcha says he can't even run) while Bubbles didn't.

We never got an explanation if when transforming their power instantly multiplied or it raised until reaching it's maximum. The Broly movie does have Vegeta glowing Gold for some time before turning Super Saiyan and it gave me that impression. In any case it's really not an issue to me.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:58 am

You also have Goku summoning the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form when he destroyed the energy ball created by his kamehameha and Beerus’ hakai. Cabba’s summoning the power of Super Saiyan when fighting Vegeta. I believe they are raising their energy gradually until they have enough to complete the transformation. In that short time, they can pull something absurd for base form.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by In Brightest Day » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:55 pm

How far would the Namekian Savior from the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc get in the original DBZ manga? Who is the strongest pre-Super character he could beat?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:32 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:55 pm
How far would the Namekian Savior from the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc get in the original DBZ manga? Who is the strongest pre-Super character he could beat?
I guess he should be enough to defend Namek from Freeza's task forces, the Ginyu Force peaking at 120,000 PL should be easily defeated by a fusion (as long as they don't show mercy to Ginyu or they get body-changed), seeing how Piccolo and Nail were able to fight 2nd form Freeza. We've only seen three nameks fusing, we don't know if those three were already several fused namekians. If there were only three of them, I see them putting up a good fight vs Final Form Freeza, similar to what Goku did before kaioken.

If the messiah was made of more than the 3 namekians shown, maybe he can force Freeza into using a great deal of his power, like 75% or so. I feel that a 100% Freeza would be too much for him. I'm also assuming the messiah wasn't made of like 15 namekians, but if he were, then probably they cap at the SS level of the early android saga.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:55 pm
How far would the Namekian Savior from the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc get in the original DBZ manga? Who is the strongest pre-Super character he could beat?
Given that the namekians had already went through huge trouble with Frieza earlier on, I'm pretty sure the Namekian Savior is already far stronger than at least 1st Form Frieza for sure. I don't know about Frieza's other forms, but it's possible that the Namekian Savior could beat 2nd Form Frieza and 3rd Form Frieza as well.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:58 am

New Fights

How far do these shonen main characters make it in DB, DBZ, DBS? Whose the strongest opponent or character level (like frieza level or Buu level) they can defeat?

1. Kenshiro
2. Yusuke
3. Naruto (Boruto)
4. Luffy
5. Asta (black clover)
6. Ichigo
7. Jotaro (Jojo)
8. Pegasus (Saint Seiya)
9. Sailor Moon
10. Gon

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