Unpopular DB opinions

[ClutchBangstrip]

I guess you can say, Goku and Dr. Manhattan are both "enlightened".

He's Sun Wukong and thusly like Dr. Manhattan in that he is not tethered to the social expectations and moralities of humanity because he is beyond it or at the very least, is constantly progressing beyond it. Dr. Manhattan treats man's concerns and expectations like they're insignificant, because they are to a being like him. Goku is the same way, he's just nicer/sillier about it.

Dr. Manhattan is also aware of this dynamic. In Goku's case, it just is what it is. Goku's never even thought about. But you do get the feeling that Goku thinks everyone else's concerns and expectations are overblown.

Hmm... there could be comparisons to consider there in terms of how their power makes them uninterested in interacting with human society, but I think the main difference is that behind all his bluster, Dr. Manhattan is a rather uncertain, unenlightened individual who doesn't have faith in where he's going in life until the very end of the story. He acts without any real drive of his own, mostly doing whatever anyone tells him, until he eventually feels so suffocated that he retreats from the world and comes to the conclusion that life isn't worth protecting. As he explains it, he's not God, just a puppet who can see the strings.

Spoiler:

Only a very tangentially related anecdote about the Comedian being Laurie's father causes him to abruptly U-turn his entire philosophy and start believing in humanity's ability to create "thermodynamic miracles".

Goku is the opposite, as soon as he discovers martial arts, he's set on that path for life. Nothing shakes him off it. We've all followed Goku for decades at this point, but I think it says a lot that after all this time, nobody really knows for sure what his personal "code" really entails, or if he even has one, because we never stay inside his head long enough to figure it out. All we know is, he could bravely fight to save the planet one minute, then jeopardise it for his own sporting entertainment the next, though he'll always try to do what he thinks is right when the chips are down. Compare that to Dr. Manhattan, where we see in detail his transition from complete listless apathy to becoming so invested in saving the world, even if it means letting a massive injustice go unpunished for the greater good of mankind. Goku is far too simpleminded to consider complex stuff like global politics. While he does care about the world, if he couldn't punch something to save the day, he'd be useless.

Imagine Goku in Dr. Manhattan's non-existent shoes at the end of Watchmen. "Nuclear Armageddon, is that a food?"

You are definitely right about the differences in those respects. I was highlighting the similarities they have in being lifeforms who essentially shrug off normal expectations due to their power/existence, like you said.

They seem to behave in "questionable" ways, largely because the readers and/or other characters assume they're heroes, like man. And this is explicitly explored in Sun Wukong's tale. You kind of look like an asshole, but in the end your roads to solutions are not limited by your humanity, everything ends up working out in the end, and everyone's happy. Even for The Doc... In the very end.

Dr. Manhattan seems to ponder this or really think/agonize about everything and Goku simply doesn't. He's a happy "simple" guy, much like Sun Wukong.

[ATA]

In America and presumably English speaking countries.


DBGT is more iconic than Dragon Ball. Just because of SSJ4, Gogeta, Baby, and Kamahameha x10.

[Jord]

In America and presumably English speaking countries.


DBGT is more iconic than Dragon Ball. Just because of SSJ4, Gogeta, Baby, and Kamahameha x10.

Exactly. When you look at it from a Z-perspective, Dragon Ball just has cuter/weaker versions of most characters. GT has stronger versions of characters, new cool fusions and strong villains. Since their fighting reflects Z, it makes them both easier and more appealing to feature in Fighting games.

[ABED]

This is what math gets you. Most of that boils down to false perception. GT comes later so logically the characters are stronger but in watching the show, their feats aren't any greater. Muten Roshi destroys the moon in the second arc. In other words, we're told they're stronger, but we don't see that demonstrated.

[Izanagi]

I am of the opinion that we as a fanbase need to take a step back and analyze whether or not Dragon Ball is and always has been problematic. Obviously, times change, and what may be seen as appropriate, humorous, or even encouraged in one time period may not remain so in another, but the passage of time does not invalidate the past, and there is no statute of limitations for problematic behavior.

Dragon Ball has had its fair share of questionable images and depictions of certain racial and ethnic groups, including:
- Racism against people of African descent (Mr. Popo, Killa)
- Racism against Indians (Namu and Oob being introduced as hailing from poor, underdeveloped villages despite Dragon Ball taking place in a world different from ours)
- Sexism (Roshi's blatant sexual assault being played off for a joke, women being portrayed as objects or bartering chips such as when Goku offers Videl or Bulma to Old Kaioshin)
- Homophobia (Bulma straight-up calling General Blue a "fag", Otokosuki's overall behavior implying all homosexual people are perverts who don't respect personal boundaries)
- Pedophilia (General Blue being clearly in love with a child, also implies that all homosexuals are pedophiles)

Some, even most, of these things are still prevalent in Dragon Ball Super, i.e. the modern day.

[Scsigs]

I am of the opinion that we as a fanbase need to take a step back and analyze whether or not Dragon Ball is and always has been problematic. Obviously, times change, and what may be seen as appropriate, humorous, or even encouraged in one time period may not remain so in another, but the passage of time does not invalidate the past, and there is no statute of limitations for problematic behavior.

Dragon Ball has had its fair share of questionable images and depictions of certain racial and ethnic groups, including:
- Racism against people of African descent (Mr. Popo, Killa)
- Racism against Indians (Namu and Oob being introduced as hailing from poor, underdeveloped villages despite Dragon Ball taking place in a world different from ours)
- Sexism (Roshi's blatant sexual assault being played off for a joke, women being portrayed as objects or bartering chips such as when Goku offers Videl or Bulma to Old Kaioshin)
- Homophobia (Bulma straight-up calling General Blue a "fag", Otokosuki's overall behavior implying all homosexual people are perverts who don't respect personal boundaries)
- Pedophilia (General Blue being clearly in love with a child, also implies that all homosexuals are pedophiles)

Some, even most, of these things are still prevalent in Dragon Ball Super, i.e. the modern day.

I'm not gonna say Dragon Ball doesn't have problematic elements, but to point these out:
Mr. Popo is based off a genie, not a black stereotype. Not saying that people can't find how he's drawn offensive if they do, but it was never intended. Killa, definitely could do without the lips as they are.
Considering a lot of Indian people live in poverty & places where they're not the best off due to a number of socio-economic reasons, I don't think it's offensive to have Nam or Uub come from similar places. The problem is probably moreso that there's no direct example of a higher-class Indian-type character to juxtapose them. Them coming from those places gives them motivation for fighting in the tournaments they do as well, so it's just unfortunate implications. It's also not like they're portrayed as bad people, just in a bad living situation.
Roshi's a dirty old man, which goes too far for the sake of the comedy in places. Thing is, though, the story often portrays that as wrong by having characters react as such. Comedy is also very subjective & it's fine if someone doesn't find a joke funny. As I just said, Toriyama made it go too far in places. This is still prevalent in modern anime & manga, plus I think live action stuff, in Japan & some other places too, unfortunately. I'll say this is probably 1 of the most problematic part of Toriyama's character writing, as it continues into today. Goku also playing into the old Kai being similar to Roshi is also bad & I think kind of out of character for him. It's aged poorly & doesn't play that well outside of Japan. Thankfully, it's been mostly toned down over time.
The homophobia isn't good, I'll just say that & leave it there.
It should be noted that General Blue being a pedo is only a product of the anime. The manga didn't have him like that, I believe. The fact that the anime writers introduced that & (I think?) played it for comedy is bad.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t know how unpopular this is, but I think the “Saiyans mature slower” explanation that Super Hero gave was stupid and unnecessary. Aside from the fact that it’s obviously just something they came up with to handwave why Goten and Trunks still looked like tiny children during DBS, it’s not even consistent with the series itself. Gohan seemed to mature at a pretty normal rate, and Future Trunks as a 14 year old had pretty realistic proportions.

[MasenkoHA]

I don’t know how unpopular this is, but I think the “Saiyans mature slower” explanation that Super Hero gave was stupid and unnecessary.

I mean we kind of saw that to be the case with Goku so its not like it was a new idea to Super Hero. But you're right that never seemed to apply to half blood Saiyans. Sounds like they were to hastily cover their tracks for why Goten and Trunks still look the same age as they did in Super but Super in general is super bad at dealing with the passage of timfle.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t know how unpopular this is, but I think the “Saiyans mature slower” explanation that Super Hero gave was stupid and unnecessary.

I mean we kind of saw that to be the case with Goku so its not like it was a new idea to Super Hero. But you're right that never seemed to apply to half blood Saiyans. Sounds like they were to hastily cover their tracks for why Goten and Trunks still look the same age as they did in Super but Super in general is super bad at dealing with the passage of timfle.

I just chalked up Goku being so small at his age to Toriyama’s early art style. I don’t think it needed an in-universe explanation, especially not nearly 40 years after the fact. It reminds me of how Rogue One decided to give an explanation for the “plot hole” regarding the Death Star’s weakness. It’s not necessary.

And yeah, the fact that this supposed biological rule didn’t seem to apply to Gohan or Future Trunks makes it pretty iffy that it would apply to Goten and Present Trunks. Then again, Gohan is also apparently the only hybrid Saiyan who was born with a tail, so I guess Saiyan genetics are just completely weird and random.

[ClutchBangstrip]

Super made Frieza even better.

He's mentioned among the greats in fiction, period. He's got that universal "corniness" that most iconic recurring villains have, but like the Joker or Green Goblin he has epic moments, too. It's goofy, but at any point, shit can get very serious.

[Darnis]

Kakarotto is the one true spelling of Goku's Saiyan name and Vegetto is proof of that. Kakarot is clearly just a mis-translation

[Ashur]

I don’t know how unpopular this is, but I think the “Saiyans mature slower” explanation that Super Hero gave was stupid and unnecessary. Aside from the fact that it’s obviously just something they came up with to handwave why Goten and Trunks still looked like tiny children during DBS, it’s not even consistent with the series itself. Gohan seemed to mature at a pretty normal rate, and Future Trunks as a 14 year old had pretty realistic proportions.

it's not new, it was established in the jaco manga to handwave Goku's growth compared to Gohan.

[Caulifor]

Kakarotto is the one true spelling of Goku's Saiyan name and Vegetto is proof of that. Kakarot is clearly just a mis-translation

It's not a mistranslation, it's a perfectly valid (and more natural) way to say the name in English. Kakarot comes from the same logic as Vegeta instead of Bejiita or Trunks instead of Torankusu. The sole reason it doesn't work in the series as a whole is because of Vegetto, which was introduced much, much later and, to be honest, is a terrible name for a Vegeta + Goku fusion.

It's not a well-balanced name. I get that Vegeta's supposed to be more dominant in Vegetto while Goku is more dominant in Gogeta, but still. It should've been something like Vegerotto (thus making Vegerot possible). And let's face it, the only reason he's called Vegetto is because Toei had already used Gogeta for their movie.

All that said, I still choose to use Kakarotto, but only because of Vegetto. Were it not for him, I'd be using Kakarot instead.

[Darnis]

Kakarotto is the one true spelling of Goku's Saiyan name and Vegetto is proof of that. Kakarot is clearly just a mis-translation

It's not a mistranslation, it's a perfectly valid (and more natural) way to say the name in English. Kakarot comes from the same logic as Vegeta instead of Bejiita or Trunks instead of Torankusu. The sole reason it doesn't work in the series as a whole is because of Vegetto, which was introduced much, much later and, to be honest, is a terrible name for a Vegeta + Goku fusion.

It's not a well-balanced name. I get that Vegeta's supposed to be more dominant in Vegetto while Goku is more dominant in Gogeta, but still. It should've been something like Vegerotto (thus making Vegerot possible). And let's face it, the only reason he's called Vegetto is because Toei had already used Gogeta for their movie.

All that said, I still choose to use Kakarotto, but only because of Vegetto. Were it not for him, I'd be using Kakarot instead.

I was actually joking About Kakarot being a mistranslation, but I do believe the fact Vegetto exists cements Kakarotto as the proper spelling even if Vegetto only came about by happen stance.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t know how unpopular this is, but I think the “Saiyans mature slower” explanation that Super Hero gave was stupid and unnecessary. Aside from the fact that it’s obviously just something they came up with to handwave why Goten and Trunks still looked like tiny children during DBS, it’s not even consistent with the series itself. Gohan seemed to mature at a pretty normal rate, and Future Trunks as a 14 year old had pretty realistic proportions.

it's not new, it was established in the jaco manga to handwave Goku's growth compared to Gohan.

That’s the thing though. Super Hero tried to apply that logic to Goten and Trunks, even though they’re half-breeds just like Gohan. It just doesn’t make any sense. It was obviously thrown in there so people would stop complaining about how it took forever for Goten and Trunks to grow up, but they didn’t seem to realize that it created its own inconsistency.

Besides, it still doesn’t explain why Marron still looks like a toddler during the DBS.

[MasenkoHA]

Besides, it still doesn’t explain why Marron still looks like a toddler during the DBS.

Or Bulma being 38 and Mai being only 40 in BoG

Trunks and Goten have Saiyan biology isn't the answer because the problem isnt only those two aren't maturing

[Seekeroftruth]

Yamcha is not the weakest; krillin is. Yamcha and tien seem to have a ken and ryu rivalry which Toriyama set up during the 22nd budokai.

[Brodes]

Yamcha is not the weakest; krillin is. Yamcha and tien seem to have a ken and ryu rivalry which Toriyama set up during the 22nd budokai.

How so?

[Seekeroftruth]

Yamcha is not the weakest; krillin is. Yamcha and tien seem to have a ken and ryu rivalry which Toriyama set up during the 22nd budokai.

How so?

Which claim would you like for me to address?

[Scsigs]

Dragon Ball games following the stories off the anime & manga aren't inherently bad. What gets people to complain about them, though, is the overabundance of DB games that do that & the ones that focus on the Z material primarily rather than covering earlier than that or the expanded media Toei put out. It also depends on how well the stories are adapted into the games & the gameplay systems around them. We have more DB games now that don't focus on the Z story, or put a huge twist on the formula as well, so I think that helps.