Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by XenoSaiyan » Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:09 pm

GT Goku vs Super 17 is the worst major battle in the franchise.

Post-ToP DBS is overall better than Post-Namek Z, Pre-Tien OG DB and all of GT.

UI Omen is the best designed transformation since SSJ4.

Despite the writing problems, Later Z Goku (Android/Buu arc) is peak Goku in terms of characterization.

DBS Superhero Gohan is the best version of the character since the Cell Games, showing that the "scholar-han" and "chad-han" views of the character aren't mutually exclusive.

Revival of F is the worst DB movie and the 2nd worse non-filler DB arc, the worst being the Super 17 arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:16 pm

Ashur wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:37 pmSure i'll explain my take on the Super 17 arc:
Despite I not agreeing 100% with this, it's probably one of the best opinions I read there. Super 17 arc had many things I didn't like as Freeza and Cell being jokes, other interesting encounters like Nappa vs. Vegeta could have happened and the idea of creating an artificial human exactly like #17 in Hell is ridiculous for me, it could have been an a machine mutant prototype with a different design that ended merging with him. Also other characters other than #18 could have help Goku in the final battle.

But like you said is too short to overcome it's welcome, it doesn't come close to unbearable stuff in FT/ToP arcs like fighting Black and Zamasu twice and escaping twice to fight another day, worst ending of any arc, the worst tournament format of all series and one of the worst antagonist too.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:13 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:25 pm Unpopular opinion: I actually like Dragon Ball's use of the "pummel duel" trope. You know, this shit:
That Goku v Piccolo GIF goes soooo hard, I could stare at it for a long time. One of the best "pummel duels" ever animated in DB.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:58 pm

I wasn't aware that's controversial. Two guys beating the piss out of each other is awesome.
the worst tournament format of all series
Are you referring to the Tournament of Power? What didn't you like about that format? I dug the hell out of the format.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:58 pmAre you referring to the Tournament of Power? What didn't you like about that format? I dug the hell out of the format.
The concept of a Battle Royale is awesome, but these are fights for survival and yet are not allowed to kill? I get it that Toriyama has to have his favorites to be on the main U7 Team, but power wise it should have been really: Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, #17 and #18. The best Earth have in terms of power as this tournament is not about skill or strategy and yes brute force and stalling for time.

We have a guy like Jiren that has to hold himself to the maximum to not crush ants so he could be eliminated? That's dumb, this is for survival have these guys to blast the weaker ones and that's it.

"Oh, but the tournament wouldn't last long..." well, just make the other universes to really have some hot shots that could compare with each others in terms of power and technique.

Having the strongest guy in the room to take a nap (meditate) is also a dumb reason for him to not immediately mop the floor with these mooks and end the arc at once. Hit technique being actually effective to trap Jiren would be nice.

Also we could have this to be broadcasted to the whole multiverse (because are their god damn lifes at stakes and are just a bunch of people fighting for it) and yes I know this straight contradicts EoZ as by that time Mr. Satan is still the best guy in the world and he's not even in this tournament. Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.

I remember the final GT episode where we have a big statue of Goku for actually no big reason as he's not really well know like Satan, but having the protagonist of this series being acknowleged as the savior of the planet he had grown up would be just amazing.

Also this arc missed the opportunity of a proper character developed, Goku thought it would be fun to fight the best warriors across the Multiverse, but not at their lives in stake, that could made him regret his actions, have his allies to not tread this lightly, but in the end is all "fun" and gimmicks and the Omni King didn't really wanted to erase the universes, so... no tension at all, huh.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:29 am

Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:58 pmAre you referring to the Tournament of Power? What didn't you like about that format? I dug the hell out of the format.
The concept of a Battle Royale is awesome, but these are fights for survival and yet are not allowed to kill? I get it that Toriyama has to have his favorites to be on the main U7 Team, but power wise it should have been really: Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, #17 and #18. The best Earth have in terms of power as this tournament is not about skill or strategy and yes brute force and stalling for time.

We have a guy like Jiren that has to hold himself to the maximum to not crush ants so he could be eliminated? That's dumb, this is for survival have these guys to blast the weaker ones and that's it.

"Oh, but the tournament wouldn't last long..." well, just make the other universes to really have some hot shots that could compare with each others in terms of power and technique.

Having the strongest guy in the room to take a nap (meditate) is also a dumb reason for him to not immediately mop the floor with these mooks and end the arc at once. Hit technique being actually effective to trap Jiren would be nice.

Also we could have this to be broadcasted to the whole multiverse (because are their god damn lifes at stakes and are just a bunch of people fighting for it) and yes I know this straight contradicts EoZ as by that time Mr. Satan is still the best guy in the world and he's not even in this tournament. Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.

I remember the final GT episode where we have a big statue of Goku for actually no big reason as he's not really well know like Satan, but having the protagonist of this series being acknowleged as the savior of the planet he had grown up would be just amazing.

Also this arc missed the opportunity of a proper character developed, Goku thought it would be fun to fight the best warriors across the Multiverse, but not at their lives in stake, that could made him regret his actions, have his allies to not tread this lightly, but in the end is all "fun" and gimmicks and the Omni King didn't really wanted to erase the universes, so... no tension at all, huh.
The Gods don't give a shit about mortal survival, the Tournament was primarily made to entertain the Zenos. If killing was allowed then Jiren would mop the floor in 10 seconds and the Zeno would not have any fun. The part about erasing universes was a secondary goal, Zeno would have erased those universes anyway at a later date, he/the Grand Priest just found a way to incorporate that goal into an event that was primarily made to entertain Zeno (who had taken an interest in tournaments after the U7vs.U6 tournament).

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:40 am

Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:58 pmAre you referring to the Tournament of Power? What didn't you like about that format? I dug the hell out of the format.
The concept of a Battle Royale is awesome, but these are fights for survival and yet are not allowed to kill? I get it that Toriyama has to have his favorites to be on the main U7 Team, but power wise it should have been really: Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, #17 and #18. The best Earth have in terms of power as this tournament is not about skill or strategy and yes brute force and stalling for time.

We have a guy like Jiren that has to hold himself to the maximum to not crush ants so he could be eliminated? That's dumb, this is for survival have these guys to blast the weaker ones and that's it.

"Oh, but the tournament wouldn't last long..." well, just make the other universes to really have some hot shots that could compare with each others in terms of power and technique.

Having the strongest guy in the room to take a nap (meditate) is also a dumb reason for him to not immediately mop the floor with these mooks and end the arc at once. Hit technique being actually effective to trap Jiren would be nice.

Also we could have this to be broadcasted to the whole multiverse (because are their god damn lifes at stakes and are just a bunch of people fighting for it) and yes I know this straight contradicts EoZ as by that time Mr. Satan is still the best guy in the world and he's not even in this tournament. Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.

I remember the final GT episode where we have a big statue of Goku for actually no big reason as he's not really well know like Satan, but having the protagonist of this series being acknowleged as the savior of the planet he had grown up would be just amazing.

Also this arc missed the opportunity of a proper character developed, Goku thought it would be fun to fight the best warriors across the Multiverse, but not at their lives in stake, that could made him regret his actions, have his allies to not tread this lightly, but in the end is all "fun" and gimmicks and the Omni King didn't really wanted to erase the universes, so... no tension at all, huh.
Most of this is plot mechanics and stuff about how strong some guys are which isn't at all the sort of things I find interesting.

I don't understand your point about Mr. Satan being seen as the strongest. He's seen as the strongest by a very gullible Earth. Why would anyone recruit him? While a lot of people don't know who Goku is, it makes sense that he would be given a statue at the TB given he was one of its most notable winners. I don't need more of a reason than that.

I'll defend the Buu falling asleep and missing out on the tournament joke. It's very Dragon Ball. That said, I didn't like it in this case, but not because of his power not being used. I don't care about that sort of thing. I find the joke redundant, and I wanted to see how he interacted with the team as there seemed like there was some progression in his character.

Why would Goku regret his actions? The tournament wasn't his idea.

And last point about the Omni King no wanting to erase the universes, there was still tension bc we don't know that until the end and it's not like they did this for lolz. They were making a point about mortals. Had they not passed his test, he would've destroyed everything.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:57 am

Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pm

The concept of a Battle Royale is awesome, but these are fights for survival and yet are not allowed to kill?
It's been a general rule in tournaments to not kill and Xeno is following Goku's example of what a tournament is.

This feels like an excuse to complain just to complain tbh.
by that time Mr. Satan is still the best guy in the world and he's not even in this tournament. Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.
Huh? Why would he be? Goku is doing the recruiting. Goku knows Mr.Satan couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag relative to every other fight he knows.

This crititique doesn't begin to make a lick of sense.

Also this arc missed the opportunity of a proper character developed, Goku thought it would be fun to fight the best warriors across the Multiverse, but not at their lives in stake, that could made him regret his actions, have his allies to not tread this lightly, but in the end is all "fun" and gimmicks and the Omni King didn't really wanted to erase the universes, so... no tension at all, huh.
Goku and Roshi's relationship gets the spotlight in an eposode for the first time since uh the original Dragon Ball. And Roshi gets re-inspired to be a fighter again after retiring after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

We see some sighs of Freeza being slightly less evil when he's somewhat willing to work with others

Some focus on Gohan when he connects with another fighter who has a family of his own i.e Gohan's whole motivation for fighting and being in the tournament

17 shows how much he's grown as a person who was stealing cars, causing chaos, and hunting down Goku out of boredom that he's the one to make a selfless wish.

Goku doesn't need to suddenly be introspective and remorseful for being careless for character development to occur.

The ToP is hardly top notch writing but it wasn't just fighting after fighting with nothing else going on

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:35 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:13 pm That Goku v Piccolo GIF goes soooo hard, I could stare at it for a long time. One of the best "pummel duels" ever animated in DB.
Ikr, just makes you feel so
Image
ABED wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:58 pm I wasn't aware that's controversial. Two guys beating the piss out of each other is awesome.
People seem to have a problem when fights descend into nothing but mindless flurries without any real choreography, which I certainly get. Super was guilty of over relying on it in some places, but even then there were some really cool examples where it was used well. Buu vs. Basil is mostly padding but the interesting shots and angles make it interesting. Plus, there's always the novelty of seeing Majin Buu tangle with a Taekwondo furry from another dimension. :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:38 pm

Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pm Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.
I do agree with this. I cannot think of a better way to end a fighting show than with a multiversal tournament with stakes that high. Moro, Granola, Black Freeza, Cell Max, those stories all seem lackluster to me compared to the ToP.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jamiljamtheman » Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:52 pm

I very much do not like Beat and Note. My biggest exposure/introduction to Dragon Ball Heroes has been through its promo anime, which instead chooses to be an over-the-top pseudo-sequel to Dragon Ball Super, still starting the main DB cast and introducing new characters in-universe.

The story mode of World Mission (the home console SDBH release) is such a drag to me. I don’t like the “game within a game” self-insert meta context at all. And the protagonists are entirely uninteresting to me, which is where a lot of my dislike for Beat and Note as generic self-inserts comes from.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:35 am

Goku's character is FAR closer to Dr. Manhattan than it is to Superman. And I think Toyo and Toriyama know this, they just make Goku silly to hide that fact.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:17 am

jamiljamtheman wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:52 pm I very much do not like Beat and Note. My biggest exposure/introduction to Dragon Ball Heroes has been through its promo anime, which instead chooses to be an over-the-top pseudo-sequel to Dragon Ball Super, still starting the main DB cast and introducing new characters in-universe.

The story mode of World Mission (the home console SDBH release) is such a drag to me. I don’t like the “game within a game” self-insert meta context at all. And the protagonists are entirely uninteresting to me, which is where a lot of my dislike for Beat and Note as generic self-inserts comes from.
I agree. I like the designs and they are meant to be avatars but they act way too much like generic avatars in behaviour. Not much character in any way.
It's a bit of a shame that World Mission was the first western DBH release, since the 3DS games were much better in my opinion. (More cards, less of a drag in story mode)

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:04 am

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:35 am Goku's character is FAR closer to Dr. Manhattan than it is to Superman. And I think Toyo and Toriyama know this, they just make Goku silly to hide that fact.
Goku was dopey way before he became semi Godlike but sure.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:55 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:04 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:35 am Goku's character is FAR closer to Dr. Manhattan than it is to Superman. And I think Toyo and Toriyama know this, they just make Goku silly to hide that fact.
Goku was dopey way before he became semi Godlike but sure.
Goku shrugged off getting shot in the head in the very 1st chapter. He's literally based on Sun Wukong :lol:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:47 pm

jamiljamtheman wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:52 pm I very much do not like Beat and Note. My biggest exposure/introduction to Dragon Ball Heroes has been through its promo anime, which instead chooses to be an over-the-top pseudo-sequel to Dragon Ball Super, still starting the main DB cast and introducing new characters in-universe.

The story mode of World Mission (the home console SDBH release) is such a drag to me. I don’t like the “game within a game” self-insert meta context at all. And the protagonists are entirely uninteresting to me, which is where a lot of my dislike for Beat and Note as generic self-inserts comes from.
I think Beat and Note have okay designs, it's kinda refreshing to see how some of the stronger transformations like SS Blue, SS4 and UI Sign look on characters not named Goku or Vegeta. I'm also not the biggest fan of the "game-within-a-game" aspect of some of Heroes' storylines, luckily they don't always use it. I'm planning on flicking through Toyotaro's Victory Mission manga which seems to give some more depth to all the Avatar characters and the rules of the setting, so I might come around to them.
Goku's character is FAR closer to Dr. Manhattan than it is to Superman. And I think Toyo and Toriyama know this, they just make Goku silly to hide that fact.
In what way?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:02 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:47 pm
jamiljamtheman wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:52 pm I very much do not like Beat and Note. My biggest exposure/introduction to Dragon Ball Heroes has been through its promo anime, which instead chooses to be an over-the-top pseudo-sequel to Dragon Ball Super, still starting the main DB cast and introducing new characters in-universe.

The story mode of World Mission (the home console SDBH release) is such a drag to me. I don’t like the “game within a game” self-insert meta context at all. And the protagonists are entirely uninteresting to me, which is where a lot of my dislike for Beat and Note as generic self-inserts comes from.
I think Beat and Note have okay designs, it's kinda refreshing to see how some of the stronger transformations like SS Blue, SS4 and UI Sign look on characters not named Goku or Vegeta. I'm also not the biggest fan of the "game-within-a-game" aspect of some of Heroes' storylines, luckily they don't always use it. I'm planning on flicking through Toyotaro's Victory Mission manga which seems to give some more depth to all the Avatar characters and the rules of the setting, so I might come around to them.
Goku's character is FAR closer to Dr. Manhattan than it is to Superman. And I think Toyo and Toriyama know this, they just make Goku silly to hide that fact.
In what way?
I guess you can say, Goku and Dr. Manhattan are both "enlightened".

He's Sun Wukong and thusly like Dr. Manhattan in that he is not tethered to the social expectations and moralities of humanity because he is beyond it or at the very least, is constantly progressing beyond it. Dr. Manhattan treats man's concerns and expectations like they're insignificant, because they are to a being like him. Goku is the same way, he's just nicer/sillier about it.

Dr. Manhattan is also aware of this dynamic. In Goku's case, it just is what it is. Goku's never even thought about. But you do get the feeling that Goku thinks everyone else's concerns and expectations are overblown.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:12 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:40 amI'll defend the Buu falling asleep and missing out on the tournament joke. It's very Dragon Ball. That said, I didn't like it in this case, but not because of his power not being used. I don't care about that sort of thing. I find the joke redundant, and I wanted to see how he interacted with the team as there seemed like there was some progression in his character.
Even though is "very Dragon Ball" as you said you shouldn't defend the same 7 years old joke that had been used four times now (RoF, U6xU7, ToP and SH) to Boo to not be involved in battles. At this point is just clear that Toriyama don't want to elaborate a plot where Boo (despite not being the strongest) could be very useful with his wacky magic and stuff and that's sad.
Why would Goku regret his actions? The tournament wasn't his idea.
It wasn't his idea but was followed by his actions, he insisted in the ToP happening despite the GoDs being against it. He just wanted to have fun fighting the strongest guys in the Multiverse, but what if it was by the cost of destroying people who were fighting for survival not for sport like he? It felt like the arc could go that way first, but it's like they've given up and everyone just goes along with the idea.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:57 am
Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pmby that time Mr. Satan is still the best guy in the world and he's not even in this tournament. Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.
Huh? Why would he be? Goku is doing the recruiting. Goku knows Mr.Satan couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag relative to every other fight he knows. This crititique doesn't begin to make a lick of sense.
You didn't quote the full sentence and yet complain that you didn't understand? Blame yourself on that was I said:
Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:02 pm Also we could have this to be broadcasted to the whole multiverse (because are their god damn lifes at stakes and are just a bunch of people fighting for it) and yes I know this straight contradicts EoZ as by that time Mr. Satan is still the best guy in the world and he's not even in this tournament. Another reason why I think ToP feels misplaced as it could be a game ending arc for the franchise.
My whole point was about having more than just GoDs, Angels and Kaioshins as spectators and yes all the other inhabitants of the Multiverse watching too, but I know this would contradict EoZ as Mr. Satan would be overshadowed by Goku and pals feats while by the time of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai he still the best guy in the world.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:19 am

Noah wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:12 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:40 amI'll defend the Buu falling asleep and missing out on the tournament joke. It's very Dragon Ball. That said, I didn't like it in this case, but not because of his power not being used. I don't care about that sort of thing. I find the joke redundant, and I wanted to see how he interacted with the team as there seemed like there was some progression in his character.
Even though is "very Dragon Ball" as you said you shouldn't defend the same 7 years old joke that had been used four times now (RoF, U6xU7, ToP and SH) to Boo to not be involved in battles. At this point is just clear that Toriyama don't want to elaborate a plot where Boo (despite not being the strongest) could be very useful with his wacky magic and stuff and that's sad.
Why would Goku regret his actions? The tournament wasn't his idea.
It wasn't his idea but was followed by his actions, he insisted in the ToP happening despite the GoDs being against it. He just wanted to have fun fighting the strongest guys in the Multiverse, but what if it was by the cost of destroying people who were fighting for survival not for sport like he? It felt like the arc could go that way first, but it's like they've given up and everyone just goes along with the idea.
I defend it because I like silly jokes, I just don't like that it is overused. And I don't care about plot reasons to use Buu. Yeah, he may be incredibly strong, but I want to see characters, not just use characters because how useful they are to the plot. I will give you this, though, using his magic could make for interesting strategies and cool, fun moments.

Whether the GoDs were against it, the most important god wasn't. The thing about Goku's personality is that this isn't anything new. He's always wanted to fight strong guys even if the world was put at stake. He cared more about winning the Tenkaichi Budokai than the fate of the world. He cared more to fight the cyborgs than stop Dr. Gero even with a 3 year warning. The only difference is the level of the stakes. But regardless, it was never his idea.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:01 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:02 pm I guess you can say, Goku and Dr. Manhattan are both "enlightened".

He's Sun Wukong and thusly like Dr. Manhattan in that he is not tethered to the social expectations and moralities of humanity because he is beyond it or at the very least, is constantly progressing beyond it. Dr. Manhattan treats man's concerns and expectations like they're insignificant, because they are to a being like him. Goku is the same way, he's just nicer/sillier about it.

Dr. Manhattan is also aware of this dynamic. In Goku's case, it just is what it is. Goku's never even thought about. But you do get the feeling that Goku thinks everyone else's concerns and expectations are overblown.
Hmm... there could be comparisons to consider there in terms of how their power makes them uninterested in interacting with human society, but I think the main difference is that behind all his bluster, Dr. Manhattan is a rather uncertain, unenlightened individual who doesn't have faith in where he's going in life until the very end of the story. He acts without any real drive of his own, mostly doing whatever anyone tells him, until he eventually feels so suffocated that he retreats from the world and comes to the conclusion that life isn't worth protecting. As he explains it, he's not God, just a puppet who can see the strings.
Goku is the opposite, as soon as he discovers martial arts, he's set on that path for life. Nothing shakes him off it. We've all followed Goku for decades at this point, but I think it says a lot that after all this time, nobody really knows for sure what his personal "code" really entails, or if he even has one, because we never stay inside his head long enough to figure it out. All we know is, he could bravely fight to save the planet one minute, then jeopardise it for his own sporting entertainment the next, though he'll always try to do what he thinks is right when the chips are down. Compare that to Dr. Manhattan, where we see in detail his transition from complete listless apathy to becoming so invested in saving the world, even if it means letting a massive injustice go unpunished for the greater good of mankind. Goku is far too simpleminded to consider complex stuff like global politics. While he does care about the world, if he couldn't punch something to save the day, he'd be useless.

Imagine Goku in Dr. Manhattan's non-existent shoes at the end of Watchmen. "Nuclear Armageddon, is that a food?" :cry:

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