Too harsh? No. I would have insulted the staff like hell if it's not the Kanzenshuu forum. Vegeta's sacrifice is one of the most important scenes in the Buu arc, or the series itself. I can't accept a so-so or passable job here. This is the goddamn very point that should be done properly. "It will improve later" or "they unfortunately missed it this time" kind of excuse doesn't work anymore. They've already missed the point.Black_Liger wrote:You guys are being far too harsh on the placement of this weekkei17 wrote:I FULLY agree with TheBlackPaladin and MagicBox. Vegeta's sacrifice was poorly done. I hate it even more than the disco shit in Goku's return. Absolutely the worst choice in the Buu arc so far.
In Z, M1615 playing while Vegeta's last moment represents his painful preparation, regret, and the great tension of the scene, and the weird, yet beautiful silence after that always makes me feel his life mercilessly burning up in the explosion. It gives me chills so badly.
On the other hand, Kai is a total fail. The obtrusively "emotional" track destroys Vegeta's own feelings and it focuses only on the brave side of his decision from third person point of view. It even drowns out Krillin's moving scream. It's just... fucking WRONG.
I have nothing against the track itself. It just doesn't work here.
Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
- Black_Liger
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
I can tell you a whole lot of things I'm tired, but I don't wanna be an asshole. I didn't come down on your opinion, and I actually playfully told you we atleast agreed on one thing. I do get your opinion as I didn't bash it so your "To be honest" comment is rather rude And..kei17 wrote:Too harsh? No. I would have insulted the staff like hell if it's not the Kanzenshuu forum. Vegeta's sacrifice is one of the most important scenes in the Buu arc, or the series itself. I can't accept a so-so or passable job here. This is the goddamn very point that should be done properly. "It will improve later" or "they unfortunately missed it this time" kind of excuse doesn't work anymore. They've already missed the point.Black_Liger wrote:You guys are being far too harsh on the placement of this weekkei17 wrote:I FULLY agree with TheBlackPaladin and MagicBox. Vegeta's sacrifice was poorly done. I hate it even more than the disco shit in Goku's return. Absolutely the worst choice in the Buu arc so far.
In Z, M1615 playing while Vegeta's last moment represents his painful preparation, regret, and the great tension of the scene, and the weird, yet beautiful silence after that always makes me feel his life mercilessly burning up in the explosion. It gives me chills so badly.
On the other hand, Kai is a total fail. The obtrusively "emotional" track destroys Vegeta's own feelings and it focuses only on the brave side of his decision from third person point of view. It even drowns out Krillin's moving scream. It's just... fucking WRONG.
I have nothing against the track itself. It just doesn't work here.
Also, to be honest, I'm tired of you praising and defending Sumitomo without any logical reasons.
"Without any logical reasons"
I give you one, I like it. Should be enough to defend it?. Because not liking it seems to be enough to blast it with curses and anger.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
I fully agree.kei17 wrote:I FULLY agree with TheBlackPaladin and MagicBox. Vegeta's sacrifice was poorly done. I hate it even more than the disco shit in Goku's return. Absolutely the worst choice in the Buu arc so far.
In Z, M1615 playing while Vegeta's last moment represents his painful preparation, regret, and the great tension of the scene, and the weird, yet beautiful silence after that always makes me feel his life mercilessly burning up in the explosion. It gives me chills so badly.
On the other hand, Kai is a total fail. The obtrusively "emotional" track destroys Vegeta's own feelings and it focuses only on the brave side of his decision from third person point of view. It even drowns out Krillin's moving scream. It's just... fucking WRONG.
I have nothing against the track itself. It just doesn't work here.
Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Sumitomo's version is way better than both Kikuchi and Faulconer here. To be fair, I was expecting to hear an insert song for this scene but as it seems they don't use them anymore.
The track is sad but triumphant as well and shows the greatness of Vegeta's soul .Vegeta can take the Earth's fate in his hand without having Goku around. He just wanted for once to be the one who is gonna save the Earth. Vegeta could never forgive Goku for saving him from Cell. He wanted to take his pride back and he did it by sacrificing himself so that he and Goku can be even.
What I fear is that this may be not the original International Version since they don't use soundtracks from Battle of Gods in that version (as far as I know) and here in Episode 120 we just heard one once again. I hope I am wrong...
The track is sad but triumphant as well and shows the greatness of Vegeta's soul .Vegeta can take the Earth's fate in his hand without having Goku around. He just wanted for once to be the one who is gonna save the Earth. Vegeta could never forgive Goku for saving him from Cell. He wanted to take his pride back and he did it by sacrificing himself so that he and Goku can be even.
What I fear is that this may be not the original International Version since they don't use soundtracks from Battle of Gods in that version (as far as I know) and here in Episode 120 we just heard one once again. I hope I am wrong...
Spoiler:
Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
My initial reaction.
I definitely agree with MagicBox, Kei17 and TheBlackPaladin. It's a good piece of music and it's definitely a standout track amongst Sumitomo's work thus far in the show but it is a one-dimensional choice that limits the scene to a singular emotion.
I don't think I can put it better than MagicBox already has - it's just far too triumphant. To me, it feels like the type of music you'd find in a big death scene in Final Fantasy. It's steeped in melodrama and doesn't really let the audience consider the moment. It just tells you exactly how to feel and that's that.
The original is absolutely monumental. It gives you a moment to fully realise what Vegeta intends to do and then it strips away the music leaving the magnitude of Horikawa's scream to ring out before being engulfed by his own explosion. It is absolutely tragic and so incredibly haunting.
Compare the two and I hope you can at least see where we're coming from with this line of thinking. I know many of you may just pass this off as another 'Oh, they'll hate Kai no matter what'. That's really not the case.
As I said, it's a good track and it's not that it's misplaced per se. It's certainly the type of emotional track you put with a death scene but it feels wrong, limiting and...obvious, I guess. It doesn't really consider the overall scene but rather feels like someone went 'this is emotional so this track will work'.
At least it wasn't anything like this.
I definitely agree with MagicBox, Kei17 and TheBlackPaladin. It's a good piece of music and it's definitely a standout track amongst Sumitomo's work thus far in the show but it is a one-dimensional choice that limits the scene to a singular emotion.
I don't think I can put it better than MagicBox already has - it's just far too triumphant. To me, it feels like the type of music you'd find in a big death scene in Final Fantasy. It's steeped in melodrama and doesn't really let the audience consider the moment. It just tells you exactly how to feel and that's that.
The original is absolutely monumental. It gives you a moment to fully realise what Vegeta intends to do and then it strips away the music leaving the magnitude of Horikawa's scream to ring out before being engulfed by his own explosion. It is absolutely tragic and so incredibly haunting.
Compare the two and I hope you can at least see where we're coming from with this line of thinking. I know many of you may just pass this off as another 'Oh, they'll hate Kai no matter what'. That's really not the case.
As I said, it's a good track and it's not that it's misplaced per se. It's certainly the type of emotional track you put with a death scene but it feels wrong, limiting and...obvious, I guess. It doesn't really consider the overall scene but rather feels like someone went 'this is emotional so this track will work'.
At least it wasn't anything like this.
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- thomas1up
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
I compared the sacrifice scene between the Original and Kai and I think the silence works a lot better, the music in Kai just feels like... it's trying to hard? It sounds too epic and triumphant and they also removing Boo's disturbing scream which was really chilling in the original.
Not bad but not great either.
Not bad but not great either.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Perfect episode.
The best so far.
They didn't use the track I thought they would use (this one was instead wonderfully applied to Vegeta and Piccolo's final talk).
But the track they used is perfect to make it the greatest and most beautiful moment it is so far in the saga, it's the triumphant redemption of the Prince and the achievement of his warrior life.
I'm glad that whoever places the music understood what the moment is all about and chose the right track to guide the viewers into what they're supposed to feel with this epic death and sadly beautiful attack.
The rest of the episode was perfect too, no waste of time, every moment is interesting, Piccolo is stylish, Vegeta is stylish...
Perfect episode for the end of a season/pack, as the next one opens a new page in the plot with characters we haven't seen (or at least being unconscious and therefore inactive for some of them) for a while.
Thank you Kai for magnifying that big scene like never before.![Thumbup :thumbup:](./images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
The best so far.
They didn't use the track I thought they would use (this one was instead wonderfully applied to Vegeta and Piccolo's final talk).
But the track they used is perfect to make it the greatest and most beautiful moment it is so far in the saga, it's the triumphant redemption of the Prince and the achievement of his warrior life.
I'm glad that whoever places the music understood what the moment is all about and chose the right track to guide the viewers into what they're supposed to feel with this epic death and sadly beautiful attack.
The rest of the episode was perfect too, no waste of time, every moment is interesting, Piccolo is stylish, Vegeta is stylish...
Perfect episode for the end of a season/pack, as the next one opens a new page in the plot with characters we haven't seen (or at least being unconscious and therefore inactive for some of them) for a while.
Thank you Kai for magnifying that big scene like never before.
![Thumbup :thumbup:](./images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
People are so divided once again
it's crazy.
Critics are understandable after all, a so iconic scene, it would obviously dissatisfying some people.It reminds me the "Yamamoto score - Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2" case.
No one mentioned the Ocean/Westwood dub music ? Probably because this is the worst version
.I always feel sorry for Mitchell & Keenlyside when I'm watching it.The guy who was in charge of music placement was probably drunk that day... ![Thumbdown :thumbdown:](./images/smilies/icon_thumbdown.gif)
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Critics are understandable after all, a so iconic scene, it would obviously dissatisfying some people.It reminds me the "Yamamoto score - Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2" case.
I agree.Although I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi's works, I've always been disappointed in the way this scene was handled in the original japanese version.To be honest, my favorite version so far was the Faulconer's one - and believe me, 70~80% of his works are pieces of trash in my eyes.TheRed259 wrote:Sumitomo's version is way better than both Kikuchi and Faulconer here
No one mentioned the Ocean/Westwood dub music ? Probably because this is the worst version
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- dbboxkaifan
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
His? The Faulconer group was composed of four musicians Bruce, Mike, Julius and Morgan so regardless that the American DBZ score was never properly handled there's still credit to be given. It'd be cool if FUNimation went back and reworked on the music placements of Faulconer for Z (or Kai) but it's just too late for it now.ShinGaijin wrote:To be honest, my favorite version so far was the Faulconer's one - and believe me, 70~80% of his works are pieces of trash in my eyes.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Four musicians ? I knew that Scott Morgan has worked with Bruce Faulconer, but for the others, I didn't know, until now.Thanks for the info.dbboxkaifan wrote:His? The Faulconer group was composed of four musicians Bruce, Mike, Julius and Morgan so regardless that the American DBZ score was never properly handled there's still credit to be given.
![Thumbup :thumbup:](./images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
dbboxkaifan wrote:It'd be cool if FUNimation went back and reworked on the music placements of Faulconer for Z (or Kai) but it's just too late for it now.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Let me pose this question, for fun's sake (and I ask this question as somebody who agrees that the music, while good, was misplaced)...
Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean. What triumphant moment in the Buu arc would justify that music? I'm having trouble thinking of one myself...it has got to fit somewhere--and it should be placed somewhere, because the track in and of itself is quite good--but my mind's drawing a blank.
Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean. What triumphant moment in the Buu arc would justify that music? I'm having trouble thinking of one myself...it has got to fit somewhere--and it should be placed somewhere, because the track in and of itself is quite good--but my mind's drawing a blank.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
"Spirit Bomb Triumphant", of course ! Spirit Bomb® is a registered trademark of Toei Animation and FUNimation in the United States and other countries.TheBlackPaladin wrote:Let me pose this question, for fun's sake (and I ask this question as somebody who agrees that the music, while good, was misplaced)...
Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean. What triumphant moment in the Buu arc would justify that music? I'm having trouble thinking of one myself...it has got to fit somewhere--and it should be placed somewhere, because the track in and of itself is quite good--but my mind's drawing a blank.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Wow Kai did this scene way more better the original Japanese version of Z. The music that was played when Vegeta sacrificed himself was perfect.
- thomas1up
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
I dunno, the track started off sounding pretty good but when the trumpets kicked in and it got more triumphant it kinda got sucky.JEFFMAN219 wrote:Wow Kai did this scene way more better the original Japanese version of Z. The music that was played when Vegeta sacrificed himself was perfect.
Still a good piece of music and much better than some other scenes..... DISCO BALL KAI
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Lool you mean this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyILqP80gEAShinGaijin wrote:People are so divided once againit's crazy.
Critics are understandable after all, a so iconic scene, it would obviously dissatisfying some people.It reminds me the "Yamamoto score - Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2" case.I agree.Although I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi's works, I've always been disappointed in the way this scene was handled in the original japanese version.To be honest, my favorite version so far was the Faulconer's one - and believe me, 70~80% of his works are pieces of trash in my eyes.TheRed259 wrote:Sumitomo's version is way better than both Kikuchi and Faulconer here
No one mentioned the Ocean/Westwood dub music ? Probably because this is the worst version.I always feel sorry for Mitchell & Keenlyside when I'm watching it.The guy who was in charge of music placement was probably drunk that day...
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
This is precisely what I mean, yes
.The problem -IMO- is the second track, starting at 1:10.it literally RUINS everything...what a shame, the rest was pretty good - given the lack of tracks available at that time.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
I like to think that it might have worked well during the sequence in which Goku convinces Gohan to stand up against Cell's Kamehame-ha, but I dunno. The arrangement of the piece still feels too "big." I guess that comes back to my common complaint that the Takaki/Yamamoto/Sumitomo music just doesn't feel like it belongs in Dragon Ball. If the same composition were rearranged with the familiar instruments, I might think differently.TheBlackPaladin wrote:Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it...what about as a concluding piece, for the very last episode when Goku flies off with Uub? I could see it working there.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."
Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
I actually kinda like it when the score plays up the spectacle side of the show. As long as it's appropriate, I don't think it's massive detriment to the overall quality. It's certainly different but I think it's perfectly capable of working so long as it actually fits whats being shown on screen or felt by the characters. That's where I feel many of these scores fail. They're far too surface level in their placement and I think that's a real testament to the quality of the staff working on the original show.MagicBox wrote: I like to think that it might have worked well during the sequence in which Goku convinces Gohan to stand up against Cell's Kamehame-ha, but I dunno. The arrangement of the piece still feels too "big." I guess that comes back to my common complaint that the Takaki/Yamamoto/Sumitomo music just doesn't feel like it belongs in Dragon Ball. If the same composition were rearranged with the familiar instruments, I might think differently.
There's a lot of spectacle in the series and I quite liked Yamamoto and Takaki for playing up that side of the series. Heck, even Sumitomo did a pretty stellar job in Battle of Gods. While it'll probably never ever reach above the pre-established feel of Dragon Ball set by Kikuchi; I don't think that should necessarily limit what other tones can work with the show too.
When Yamamoto was handled well, I though he did an absolutely great job of giving a new take to the series (despite ripping off a bajillion composers). For example, the Yamamoto placement during Goku's Kaioken Kamehamaha retains a similar feel to what Kikuchi's score had in the original. They're both triumphant sounding that build into something larger. Personally, I find both work equally as well despite one being far 'bigger' than the other.
Regarding the track used during Vegeta's sacrifice; I do agree with ShinGaijin, I think the final Genki Dama call for power against Boo could work. In fact, I'd be very surprised if we didn't hear this again during that moment.
Anyway, now that this moment is out of the way. What's the next big one we can (not) look forward to?!
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)
Watching the episode again, this is my favorite take on the scene ever, I mean, Vegeta's resolve is freaking enhanced by the piece of music, he accepts his destiny as a soul who is destined to neither heaven nor hell, he accepts his destiny fully, the music really shows that, he IS happy, this is the ultimate change of heart for the prince of saiyans, his final chance for redemption! the thriumphant music also makes it seem as THE END type of scenario which makes for a more rude awakening in the next episode where buu is shown to be alive. Too bad the NEPS are plagued by spoilers e.e
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