Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

And yet, we are told that Moro is the strongest opponent Goku has ever fought.

To be fair, that's an awkward statement even without Broly in the equation, since Goku fought Beerus. At the time, a lot of us actually interpreted it as confirmation that Goku also surpassed Beerus until it was revealed that Beerus is still stronger.

The thing about Broly is that he's still being hyped up as recently as the Toyotaro/Uchida interview videos and even Toriyama's statement about Cell Max, but your idea that Goku misjudged Beerus also isn't too unreasonable. I say we withhold commitment to any one position until the manga reveals more.

[Yuji]

Is it not fair to simply claim Broly in SH is stronger than his initial appearance?

Broly (SH) > Moro > Broly (Broly)

Anyway, Kuririn just got some nice feats in the recent chapter. He seems relative to base Trunks and Goten, if not stronger.

[ZombieVito]

Is it not fair to simply claim Broly in SH is stronger than his initial appearance?

Broly (SH) > Moro > Broly (Broly)

Anyway, Kuririn just got some nice feats in the recent chapter. He seems relative to base Trunks and Goten, if not stronger.

I guess Toyo watched the anime ToP lol.

[Hugo Boss]

Bandai wafer stickers just released another set.

It has some interesting additions, like Cell Max and several Super Saiyan forms for comparisons. Apparently they have Cell Max, Super Saiyan Broly (not full power) and Beast Gohan in the same level. Beast Gohan with makankosappo has a higher number and surpasses Super Saiyan Gogeta, but it’s still treated as weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Ultra Instinct (Sign) Goku.

[Goku9001]

And yet, we are told that Moro is the strongest opponent Goku has ever fought.

To be fair, that's an awkward statement even without Broly in the equation, since Goku fought Beerus. At the time, a lot of us actually interpreted it as confirmation that Goku also surpassed Beerus until it was revealed that Beerus is still stronger.

The thing about Broly is that he's still being hyped up as recently as the Toyotaro/Uchida interview videos and even Toriyama's statement about Cell Max, but your idea that Goku misjudged Beerus also isn't too unreasonable. I say we withhold commitment to any one position until the manga reveals more.

It's really not. Goku nor Vegeta have a firm comprehension of Beerus' strength. If we disregard the inclusion of Hakaishins and Angels (since Goku has technically fought Whis before), then the comparison absolutely does make sense.

The way Super Hero was written was with respect to the movie being a direct continuation of Broly . That means that the movie inherently excludes the Moro and Granolah arcs from its story. Without Moro, Granolah, Gas, Frieza, and Goku & Vegeta's advancements in power, Broly would very well remain at the pinnacle of strength just behind the GoDs and the Angels. By this logic, Jiren would also be among the strongest even though we know that's not true. The only way to reconcile this with the manga events is by suggesting that Broly had gotten much stronger.

[Mr Baggins]

It's really not. Goku nor Vegeta have a firm comprehension of Beerus' strength. If we disregard the inclusion of Hakaishins and Angels (since Goku has technically fought Whis before), then the comparison absolutely does make sense.

It really is. Beerus and the other Gods of Destruction were commanded to "give it their all" during the exhibition match, a fight that Goku directly witnessed and commented on. He then confidently told Broly that he was stronger than Beerus. There's no reason to think he would arbitrarily exclude Beerus from his own comparisons when A. he has seen Beerus fight seriously, and B. he's never excluded him before.

Moro was never Goku's strongest opponent with or without Broly, so it's simply not correct. Maybe he just meant "toughness" in the sense of high endurance, but either way, you're basically assuming that a bunch of characters (including Beerus, apparently) randomly got much stronger off-screen when the simpler conclusion via occam's razor, dialogue from the movies, the video with Toyotaro/Uchida, and Toriyama's recent comment would suggest that FP Broly is at/near the top.

[Koitsukai]

But Goku never fought FP Beerus, only an above SSG level Beerus, at best he saw him at FP, and in fact at a certain moment he stopped being able to see the fight, so it's mostly guessing on his part in regards of just how strong Beerus is...
Thinking Moro73 must've been above Beerus based on that comment would be obtuse and extremely literal, because well he never fought him for real, wasn't even able to follow his fight! We all know who were being excluded and who included.

If Occam's razor is in play, then:
The comment about Moro73. (Tough has been used as strenght term since forever in DB)
Whis not confronting Goku when he is sure nobody is above them.
The first wish. (just in case people weren't too sure about the "TOUGH" remark)
The second wish. (just in case the first wish wasn't clear enough)
Out of universe we have Toyo's interview, and V-Jump introduced Goku as the U7's strongest mortal when the Granny arc started.

I still don't know where was it stated that Broly cannot access his FP, or where was it said that Toronbo only takes into account the power being used at the time of the wish. It's still Broly's power, it's not from fusion or borrowed power, it's right there, one rageful moment away.
Sure, that could be a good way to circumvent all of this, but until that's effectively explained, it's just wishful headcanon.
Plus, Broly is being trained by Goku now, that's a perfectly sound reason to have this untrained SSB beast with untapped potential regain his crown in no time. And DBS isn't privy of having people training off-screen reaching unexpected heights either.

[QuakingStar]

FPBroly WAS at the top, then Black Frieza happened(keeping Broly safe on Beerus planet from Frieza proves he's weaker than Frieza who's still weaker than Beerus), then Cell Max activated, then Gohan Beast happened.

So not including Angels and GoDs Black Frieza and Gohan Beast are at the top, Cell Max and FPSS Broly are right after that, then its TUI Goku/UE Vegeta/Orange Piccolo.

[Mr Baggins]

in fact at a certain moment he stopped being able to see the fight, so it's mostly guessing on his part in regards of just how strong Beerus is...

No. Goku's comment about being unable to tell who's fighting who, which doesn't even happen until the tail-end of the fight, has nothing to do with his read on their power. He specifically says their strength is mind-boggling in the panel directly before it.

Goku knows full well how strong Beerus and the other Hakaishin are, at least in terms of raw power. Don't be obtuse.

Anyway, I'm bored with this argument. Call it "headcanon" if you want, but you can guaran-damn-tee I'll believe Toriyama and Uchida – two people who directly work on the story of the manga – over any of us nerds arguing about who's stronger on the internet any day of the week. They said what they said. It is what it is, and no amount of grasping at technicalities over whether Toronbo's wish applies to the current moment or all of history in general (the latter of which is highly unlikely) will ever be able to change that.

FPBroly WAS at the top, then Black Frieza happened(keeping Broly safe on Beerus planet from Frieza proves he's weaker than Frieza who's still weaker than Beerus), then Cell Max activated, then Gohan Beast happened.

Totally fair. That's a ranking I'm more inclined to accept.

Like I said, we'll see since the manga rarely references the events of DBS Broly as it is.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Pretty weird you’d say Uchida instead of Toyotaro when Toyo is the actual writer. Plus it’s hard to trust Uchida when Toyotaro all but corrects him when he says Broly > Goku, but I’m sure Broly isn’t total fodder. I don’t think anyone thinks Broly is in the bottom of the food chain anyway, even if he’s not at the top. He’s like, a question mark.

I still don't know where was it stated that Broly cannot access his FP

I think this is pretty self explanatory, his power coming from rage and all. Not like anyone says Gohan is the strongest when he’s slacking off…

[Mr Baggins]

Pretty weird you’d say Uchida instead of Toyotaro when Toyo is the actual writer.

Toyotaro writes the dialogue and draws the art, save Toriyama's corrections. The manga's general storyline and its ideas are a collaboration between Toyotaro, Toriyama, and Uchida, as the official site's videos frequently mention and confirm.

Now, if you want to think that Toyotaro alone doesn't believe Broly to be near the top of the ladder, then at worst, that's a bad situation where the story is internally inconsistent as a result of its three authors disagreeing about where various characters stand.

But he doesn't correct Uchida, and since this obviously pre-planned "interview" had a bunch of images (including one of Broly) flashing across the screen as they both discussed the characters Goku hadn't yet surpassed, I think I'll hedge my bets for now.

He’s like, a question mark.

Well, that was kinda my position all along. Although I personally think Broly is likely to be at or at least near the top, I don't think it's definitive. Maybe they'll come up with some shit about Goku's comparison being wrong or whatever. We don't know for certain.

It's interesting that we're all divided on this topic about 50-50, though, so it'll be fun to see who ends up being right. I don't mind eating crow if I have to, but it's really funny to see some people ITT acting like they know more about the scaling than the creators.

[Miracles]

Bandai wafer stickers just released another set.

It has some interesting additions, like Cell Max and several Super Saiyan forms for comparisons. Apparently they have Cell Max, Super Saiyan Broly (not full power) and Beast Gohan in the same level. Beast Gohan with makankosappo has a higher number and surpasses Super Saiyan Gogeta, but it’s still treated as weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Ultra Instinct (Sign) Goku.

Interesting. Always appreciate different views from officials sources. Even though not canonical to the story.

As far as the hypothetical comparison between Broly and Beerus in DBS: Broly. Where did that go in the Super Hero sequel? Since BoG, Beerus was again said to still be the most fearsome in the universe in Super Hero [Toriyama even confirms this way back in BoG in his statements]. No Broly comparison factored into that at all. Then Toriyama comes out and states Broly would lose to Cell Max if completed. Again Beerus isn't mentioned to also be at risk to a completed Cell Max. Not maintaining Broly's supposed tier level with Beerus. Toriyama even comes out and says Gohan is the strongest, not Broly. This was his "aim" in the Super Hero movie after all.

The point, Toriyama isn't afraid to climb the ladder without Broly. Right now, Broly is just one of the boys trying to get his power under control. Then we will see where he places. However, one thing is for sure he is not destined for anything special like Goku, Vegeta and Beerus through the oracle Fish. Ultimately Broly will fall to the destined main caster plot power soon.

[Koitsukai]

Toyo literally said "the 3 strongest in the universe are fighting it out" in an interview about a story with several hints at a certain something, but I guess his words mean less than the editor's, which he didn't even acknowledge, and giving more credit to Toyo the Janitor than editor Uchida means we're just fAnS trying to school the staff about their own story.

[Hugo Boss]

Someone else may have noticed, but this last set nicely covers recent Toriyama’s tidbits about the strength of Cell Max and Orange Piccolo.

Despite not including Goku and Vegeta from Super Hero and Broly movies, it includes SS Broly and SS Gogeta, and surprisingly or not they are implied to be stronger than Orange Piccolo. Since Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms were no match for SS Broly, that could suggest Orange Piccolo is actually supposed to be leveled with Super Saiyan Blue, and not Ultra Instinct like many assumed.

Also, if Cell Max is on par with SS Broly, Gohan correctly assumed Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t be able to beat Cell Max, because they also couldn’t defeat SS Broly until they fused. Another detail is that completed Cell Max would be above SS Broly, if they are equal without that condition.

Speaking of Beast Gohan, if we assume Broly can’t readily access all his Super Saiyan power at will and not counting fusions, Gohan really is the strongest character that debuted in the films, at least in the storyline Toriyama came up on his own.

I understand it’s weird that Toriyama, Toyotaro and Uchida apparently disagree on this matter, though I believe this is not intentional. Perhaps they didn’t dig into each other scripts that deeply, and mostly shared general ideas of what kind of stories will be written. Toriyama moved a little bit forward from Broly despite the timeline being ahead of Toyotaro’s, while Toyotaro’s characters far exceeded what Toriyama could have imagined he would do in that short time.

Characters strength level isn’t always perfectly conveyed. Toyotaro seems to be the most aware of it, and probably he will convey it clearer in the manga’s next chapters.

[Goku9001]

It's really not. Goku nor Vegeta have a firm comprehension of Beerus' strength. If we disregard the inclusion of Hakaishins and Angels (since Goku has technically fought Whis before), then the comparison absolutely does make sense.

It really is. Beerus and the other Gods of Destruction were commanded to "give it their all" during the exhibition match, a fight that Goku directly witnessed and commented on. He then confidently told Broly that he was stronger than Beerus. There's no reason to think he would arbitrarily exclude Beerus from his own comparisons when A. he has seen Beerus fight seriously, and B. he's never excluded him before.

Moro was never Goku's strongest opponent with or without Broly, so it's simply not correct. Maybe he just meant "toughness" in the sense of high endurance, but either way, you're basically assuming that a bunch of characters (including Beerus, apparently) randomly got much stronger off-screen when the simpler conclusion via occam's razor, dialogue from the movies, the video with Toyotaro/Uchida, and Toriyama's recent comment would suggest that FP Broly is at/near the top.

Goku and Vegeta both exclude Beerus and Whis when talking about becoming the strongest fighter in Universe 7. Within the novelization, Golden Frieza goes as far as to say that no one in existence could defeat SSJ Broly despite being privy to both Whis and Beerus. Naturally, these comparisons don't take into consideration of the Hakaishins and the Angels hence why they are naturally omitted when Goku and Vegeta talk about being the strongest in Universe 7.

Goku clearly meant strength. He was disappointed that Moro doesn't train and didn't have the willingness to train because Goku wanted to have the opportunity to fight him again when he had become stronger. But don't get it twisted. I'm not suggesting Beerus got stronger. I'm suggesting Goku underestimated him. Both Goku and Vegeta didn't have knowledge on Destruction which is where Hakaishins derive their "boundless" power from.

I do think Broly will be high up on the food chain in the Super Hero manga adaption but not because of some outdated movie statement that was unaware of the direction of the manga. There's plenty of room for Broly to have grown stronger while adhering to current manga statements by both Goku and Whis that suggest that Broly was no longer relevant.

[Cipher]

I'm just going to pipe in here and say non-commitedly that I think it's telling the Japanese chooses to use タフ (tafu "tough") for Moro, with the word's usual ambiguities (usually referring to durability/tenacity in Japanese, especially in genre fiction).

I don't know how Moro/Beerus/Broly/Jiren is all exactly meant to shake out, or if everyone was on the same page as one another, but I think it's at least safe to say that if the manga had wanted to commit hard either way, it would have used a different word.

Although it's also kind of moot at this point, since the Granolah arc makes it completely explicit that Goku/Vegeta, Granolah, Gas, and then Freeza are by turns the strongest mortals in the universe. It's really just Moro/Broly/Jiren (and that's only prior to Moro getting UI, which pretty solidly takes Jiren out of the running as well) that's left with any ambiguity, and Beerus' whole thing in relation to everyone.

Even the manga has been careful to not pit Beerus and UI Goku against each other (pairing him up with Whis after the Moro arc instead), so maybe that's telling too? It seems like even that version, which has certainly done the most to imply Beerus remains leagues above, is hedging its bets in certain ways.

All of the above is referring to Broly and Jiren as of their introductions, of course. It's fully possible, as mentioned above, that the manga will give us a Broly who has grown stronger in the interrim through his training, by the time he shows up on Beerus' world.

[Goku9001]

I'm just going to pipe in here and say non-commitedly that I think it's telling the Japanese chooses to use タフ (tafu "tough") for Moro, with the word's usual ambiguities (usually referring to durability/tenacity in Japanese, especially in genre fiction).

I don't know how Moro/Beerus/Broly/Jiren is all exactly meant to shake out, or if everyone was on the same page as one another, but I think it's at least safe to say that if the manga had wanted to commit hard either way, it would have used a different word.

Although it's also kind of moot at this point, since the Granolah arc makes it completely explicit that Goku/Vegeta, Granolah, Gas, and then Freeza are by turns the strongest mortals in the universe. It's really just Moro/Broly/Jiren (and that's only prior to Moro getting UI, which pretty solidly takes Jiren out of the running as well) that's left with any ambiguity, and Beerus' whole thing in relation to everyone.

Even the manga has been careful to not pit Beerus and UI Goku against each other (pairing him up with Whis after the Moro arc instead), so maybe that's telling too? It seems like even that version, which has certainly done the most to imply Beerus remains leagues above, is hedging its bets in certain ways.

All of the above is referring to Broly and Jiren as of their introductions, of course. It's fully possible, as mentioned above, that the manga will give us a Broly who has grown stronger in the interrim through his training, by the time he shows up on Beerus' world.

Nah. I think it's telling that Goku is amazed by his strength and refers to him as the "toughest" opponent he's ever met as a reason as to why he wants to fight him after he trains. The context tells us everything. There's no reason for this statement to be made if it meant nothing. That would be disingenuous.

[Mr Baggins]

Nah. I think it's telling that Goku is amazed by his strength and refers to him as the "toughest" opponent he's ever met as a reason as to why he wants to fight him after he trains.

I think it's totally reasonable that Goku would factor in and mention Moro's endurance/tenacity as one of the reasons for wanting him to train so they can fight again. That's what impressed him about Boo.

Anyway, this back-and-forth over Broly seems awfully circular for a character that wasn't given a proper introduction in the manga and has yet to be even name-dropped in serialization. Perhaps it'll get addressed when he inevitably shows up in Super Hero's adaptation. Let's wait until then, yeah?

[Thani]

Bandai wafer stickers just released another set.

It has some interesting additions, like Cell Max and several Super Saiyan forms for comparisons. Apparently they have Cell Max, Super Saiyan Broly (not full power) and Beast Gohan in the same level. Beast Gohan with makankosappo has a higher number and surpasses Super Saiyan Gogeta, but it’s still treated as weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Ultra Instinct (Sign) Goku.

It's fun to see these comparisons, but they're also the same stickers that had Dabra at 4.000, a Cell Jr. at 5.200 and Mecha Freeza at 5.300.

It really brings down the credibility of the whole thing haha

[Goku9001]

Nah. I think it's telling that Goku is amazed by his strength and refers to him as the "toughest" opponent he's ever met as a reason as to why he wants to fight him after he trains.

I think it's totally reasonable that Goku would factor in and mention Moro's endurance/tenacity as one of the reasons for wanting him to train so they can fight again. That's what impressed him about Boo.

Anyway, this back-and-forth over Broly seems awfully circular for a character that wasn't given a proper introduction in the manga and has yet to be even name-dropped in serialization. Perhaps it'll get addressed when he inevitably shows up in Super Hero's adaptation. Let's wait until then, yeah?

Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu and Broly again based on their strength. Goku only talks about Moro's strength when he expresses how much he wants to fight Moro again. Seems pretty simple to me. Using a different word doesn't really matter when toughness can refer to strength and context clarifies that this is what is being referred to. It's pretty simple confirmation that Broly has been surpassed. I'll gladly eat my words if I'm proven wrong but there's certainly enough evidence that as of right now, Broly had been surpassed.