Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Goku9001
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:12 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:06 am Magnificent Ponta's post perfectly explains what I was getting at. Nobody here was invoking match-ups.

Now, hypothetically, were Broly to accompany Goku and Vegeta to Planet Cereal and then fight Granolah first, there's no debating that Broly would probably lose. It's clear that only under very specific circumstances is he capable of actually reaching the level of strength used in the film – enough to apparently prompt a comparison to Beerus himself, and later, an unstoppable completed Cell Max that never came into fruition. That was a temporary state of power that wouldn't have been accounted for by a wish that clearly only considers the current state of affairs.

But also, I'm not sure if some of you truly understand that Broly hasn't even been properly introduced in the manga yet. He was only mentioned by name in a tiny bonus chapter that accompanied one of the volume releases, and there's literally a single page before the Moro arc that basically says "watch the movie" in lieu of actually describing what happened. It's not surprising that Toyotaro hasn't exactly gone out of his way to talk about him, or mention him in some offhand dialogue.
It's pretty self-explanatory. This is just wishful thinking. Goku already stated that Moro was the strongest he's ever fought and Goku had first-hand experience with Broly's power. It's pretty straightforward.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:49 am

Goku9001 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:12 am This is just wishful thinking.
Man, I don't give a damn about fictional characters or favoritism. I have no horse in this race. I'm just trying to make sense of the intended scaling to the best of my ability while allowing the possibility of inconsistencies from the writers along the way. We're all extrapolating in place of a direct comparison.

But unless Goku specifically thinks Moro also surpasses Beerus in raw power, this is anything but "straightforward". Uchida also said what he said, and he's heavily involved in actually conceiving the story (not to mention the video even shows an image of Broly while they're discussing all the characters Goku hasn't surpassed yet, so it wasn't something said in error).

We'll just have to see. I'm open to being wrong.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:38 am

Miracles wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:08 pm Considering Toriyama came out himself and said Broly would get mopped by a completed Cell Max, he is not a benchmark. Revealing that he isn't afraid to pack up the car and drive off without him. Toyotaro explicitly did this in the manga [Freeza is the strongest]. Heck Gohan is the current strongest in Super Hero the movie. For now, Broly has just become "one of the boys," trying to improve and will ultimately fall behind Goku and Vegeta's destined universal best titles.
Just to correct, he said that s complete Cell Max would be a superhuman that not even Broly could defeat. No statement about how the fight's coreography would go, only the statement that Broly wpuld fail to defeat Cell Max while also making this a big deal.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:00 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:06 pm How close was SSJBE Vegeta to Moro and UI Sign Goku, really? Before Spirit Fission kicked in Vegeta looked like a bit of challenge to Moro, that first punch was pretty intense. Something like SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza, Moro would win swiftly but he’d have to use full power.

Was Vegeta that strong or was Moro just toying with Vegeta?

I’m asking this because UI is absurdly strong, it can easily be of thousands times stronger than PSSJB going by the Broly movie, while SSJBE is often considered to just be 20x Blue.
Moro basically tanked it, right? Geets needed to land some blows for SF to drain Moro enough for them to be on equal grounds. But he also wasn’t injured after Moro kicked him into a wall.

Sign Goku was making Moro sweat much more. I think now that talk about Vegeta surpassing Goku was about who's saving the world, not about powerscaling. I don’t think Vegeta was that far off them. Going by the Namek arc you brought up, maybe Moro was like Recoome and Vegeta was… Vegeta. And then Moro became Dodoria.
Moro was confident the gap was too much to lose that fight, I’d place Vegeta closer to Moro than to Recoome, though. Recoome ending up a mess and Moro not, probably was due to Moro being more durable.

Moro: Recoome
Vegeta: Vegeta but stronger.
Sign: Jeese? if he was the weakest of the bunch that was still alive.

Also, SSBE in the manga probably isn't 20x, we don't know what type of KK Goku used against Jiren, but SSBE was above that. Perhaps it was just a KKx2.
For the anime, I think it was 20x only at first, to take down Toppo he needed to go even beyond that power that was similar to KKx20 when fighting Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:05 pm

picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pmWho are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
Jiren, maybe Hit and Toppo, and obviously Monaka.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:53 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:38 am
Miracles wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:08 pm Considering Toriyama came out himself and said Broly would get mopped by a completed Cell Max, he is not a benchmark. Revealing that he isn't afraid to pack up the car and drive off without him. Toyotaro explicitly did this in the manga [Freeza is the strongest]. Heck Gohan is the current strongest in Super Hero the movie. For now, Broly has just become "one of the boys," trying to improve and will ultimately fall behind Goku and Vegeta's destined universal best titles.
Just to correct, he said that s complete Cell Max would be a superhuman that not even Broly could defeat. No statement about how the fight's coreography would go, only the statement that Broly wpuld fail to defeat Cell Max while also making this a big deal.
Despite what Toriyama says here, I don’t think this take away Gohan’s title as the strongest by the events of Super Hero. Broly is more like a wild card, as others have said above. Unlike Gohan, who can now control his newfound power, Broly still needs to be correctly stimulated to reach powerlevels above Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:54 pm

picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pm Who are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
1.Gohan Beast [Said so by Toriyama and always said throughout his official manga and Super Hero when he cuts loose].
2.Black Freeza [One shotted the top three in the manga universe. Super Hero movie will connect with the prequel manga].
3.Broly [Toriyama said it would take a completed Cell Max to beat him]
4.Incomplete Cell Max [Narration doubted if Goku or Vegeta could beat him]
5.Gas [Was the strongest in the universe]
6.True UI Goku [Beat Gas before he burned his cells to gain more power]
7.UE Vegeta [Lost to a weaker Gas than the one True UI Goku beat]
8.Granolah [Lost to a weaker Gas when he controlled his berserk mode]
9.Moro [Prime Moro's battle with UI Goku was universal stakes]
10.Broly arc Blue Gogeta [Mopped the floor with Broly in Blue mode]

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:36 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:53 pm
Thani wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:38 am
Miracles wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:08 pm Considering Toriyama came out himself and said Broly would get mopped by a completed Cell Max, he is not a benchmark. Revealing that he isn't afraid to pack up the car and drive off without him. Toyotaro explicitly did this in the manga [Freeza is the strongest]. Heck Gohan is the current strongest in Super Hero the movie. For now, Broly has just become "one of the boys," trying to improve and will ultimately fall behind Goku and Vegeta's destined universal best titles.
Just to correct, he said that s complete Cell Max would be a superhuman that not even Broly could defeat. No statement about how the fight's coreography would go, only the statement that Broly wpuld fail to defeat Cell Max while also making this a big deal.
Despite what Toriyama says here, I don’t think this take away Gohan’s title as the strongest by the events of Super Hero. Broly is more like a wild card, as others have said above. Unlike Gohan, who can now control his newfound power, Broly still needs to be correctly stimulated to reach powerlevels above Goku and Vegeta.
I don't disagree with this. I'm just saying that there is no context beyond the fact that a completed Cell Max would be a warrior that even Broly would fail to defeat. Could be a stomp, could be a hard fought battle that Cell wins. But that wouldn't take away Gohan's newfound power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:57 pm

Since Gohan and Piccolo didn't participate in the tournament in EoZ, I assumed their powerups were only temporary. Gohan ends up slacking off again so not unexpected for him. It might also be like a gag that Goku and Vegeta never find out about these new forms since they're already lost by the time they see Gohan and Piccolo again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:13 pm

How strong do you have Orange Piccolo in these tier lists? Toriyama said he has “finally obtained battle power on par with Goku and Vegeta”. Isn’t this supposed to mean Piccolo rivals Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego? Wouldn’t that make him at least a contender to the strongest? Or was Toriyama not considering manga developments after the Tournament of Power?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:48 pm

It's hard to tell if Toriyama was considering manga events when stating Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku/Vegeta. We surely will found out soon with the prequel manga events going to connect to the Super Hero movie. With that happening I would assume that Orange Piccolo will definitely be on par with any version of Goku/Vegeta [Manga/Movie] since it is a plot point to have Piccolo rival them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:37 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:54 pm
picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pm Who are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
1.Gohan Beast [Said so by Toriyama and always said throughout his official manga and Super Hero when he cuts loose].
2.Black Freeza [One shotted the top three in the manga universe. Super Hero movie will connect with the prequel manga].
3.Broly [Toriyama said it would take a completed Cell Max to beat him]
4.Incomplete Cell Max [Narration doubted if Goku or Vegeta could beat him]
5.Gas [Was the strongest in the universe]
6.True UI Goku [Beat Gas before he burned his cells to gain more power]
7.UE Vegeta [Lost to a weaker Gas than the one True UI Goku beat]
8.Granolah [Lost to a weaker Gas when he controlled his berserk mode]
9.Moro [Prime Moro's battle with UI Goku was universal stakes]
10.Broly arc Blue Gogeta [Mopped the floor with Broly in Blue mode]
So two characters who are dead, by the hand of a stronger fighter no less, and a fusion?
Last edited by picc on Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:43 pm

nineko wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:05 pm
picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pmWho are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
Jiren, maybe Hit and Toppo, and obviously Monaka.
Obviously I forgot Monaka. He's the clear favorite. :mrgreen:

As far as Hit and Toppo, I mean, we might as well throw C17 and Majin Buu in the list then. They could have both leveled up a lot. Maybe Uub. Piccolo too. Who knows what Dypso's been up to. Point being if we want to be as liberal as possible with hypotheticals, there are endless characters we could argue for strongest.
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:13 pm How strong do you have Orange Piccolo in these tier lists? Toriyama said he has “finally obtained battle power on par with Goku and Vegeta”. Isn’t this supposed to mean Piccolo rivals Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego? Wouldn’t that make him at least a contender to the strongest? Or was Toriyama not considering manga developments after the Tournament of Power?
I assume all movie PL's are relevant to movie canon until the manga makes it clear they aren't. So in my estimation Orange Piccolo is now a rival of movie Goku and Vegeta, who are far weaker than manga versions.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:39 am

picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pm Who are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
10 was just a random number I threw without thinking much of it, but we have a lot of characters within the same "tier."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:06 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:13 pm How strong do you have Orange Piccolo in these tier lists? Toriyama said he has “finally obtained battle power on par with Goku and Vegeta”. Isn’t this supposed to mean Piccolo rivals Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego? Wouldn’t that make him at least a contender to the strongest? Or was Toriyama not considering manga developments after the Tournament of Power?
To quote an earlier post of mine:
The comparison Piccolo makes in the film comes from a script that was written long before Goku and Vegeta's current power-ups in the series, and isn't the only thing that would point to Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo and the Gammas being roughly in the SSB range. However, the comparison Toriyama makes is distinctly outside of the film's context — it's from recent ancillary material made to celebrate the movie's sales, so it's probably coming from the Toriyama that actively worked on the Granolah arc and was in charge of approving forms like Ultra Ego, at-will Ultra Instinct, etc.
In a nutshell, the movie's script likens Goku/Vegeta to the Gammas while Toriyama's more recent statement likens Goku/Vegeta to Orange Piccolo, but since we know those comparisons can't both be true, the movie was likely referring to their Blue forms (given that it was written before all this "Ultra" business going on in the manga) while Toriyama was likely referring to their current level in the series. That seems to be the most logical interpretation, in any case.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:59 pm

I think this is how it goes

SS2 >/= base Piccolo
Ultimate Gohan = SSB = Gammas >/= Ultimate Piccolo
Orange Piccolo >/= UI Sign = Blue Evolved (w/ Spirit Fission)
Beast = UI/UE

I think you can debate who's stronger than who but the "tiers" are pretty consistent this way. Base Piccolo is the only incognito since he can range from base Saiyans all the way to SS2 based on feats. Besides that Ultimate Gohan proved to be still slightly stronger than Ultimate Piccolo while matching the Gammas which should match the SSBs.

Beast should he comparable to UI and UE which leaves Orange a tier below in the realm of the non-Toriyama Sign/Evolved transformations.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:51 pm

picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pm Who are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
Freeza and Gohan are the two strongest, but I'm not sure who's stronger. Broly is more potential than actual power, but he's in this list either way. Piccolo's definitely up there with Goku, Vegeta and maybe Granolah (Is he even alive?).

If we're including other universes, I say the other 4 are Jiren, Toppo and maybe Hit (All in unknown spots) with 17 there in the bottom. Hit is probably 2nd to last since he's probably already done everything he can in the series though.

If this is limited to universe 7, then 17, 18, Goten and Trunks are the bottom 4. Not counting Merus since he probably lost his Angel powers.
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:13 pm How strong do you have Orange Piccolo in these tier lists? Toriyama said he has “finally obtained battle power on par with Goku and Vegeta”. Isn’t this supposed to mean Piccolo rivals Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego? Wouldn’t that make him at least a contender to the strongest? Or was Toriyama not considering manga developments after the Tournament of Power?
I don't think either statement is supposed to be that specific. Piccolo lumping the Gammas with the Saiyans is basically just him saying "They're stronger than me, it'd probably take Goku and Vegeta to beat these guys", which leaves a lot of room since Piccolo is very weak next to the Saiyans. And then Toriyama's statement is just him saying "Yeah he's not Base level anymore". I mean, 17 is probably just SSJ3 level and Goku also said they were fairly close.

Gammas = SSJBs and Orange Piccolo = UI for me, but I can understand if someone says Gammas = SSJG and Orange Piccolo = SSJB.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:43 pm

Yuji wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:39 am
picc wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pm Who are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
10 was just a random number I threw without thinking much of it, but we have a lot of characters within the same "tier."
Ah ok. That makes sense.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:51 pm Freeza and Gohan are the two strongest, but I'm not sure who's stronger. Broly is more potential than actual power, but he's in this list either way. Piccolo's definitely up there with Goku, Vegeta and maybe Granolah (Is he even alive?).

If we're including other universes, I say the other 4 are Jiren, Toppo and maybe Hit (All in unknown spots) with 17 there in the bottom. Hit is probably 2nd to last since he's probably already done everything he can in the series though.

If this is limited to universe 7, then 17, 18, Goten and Trunks are the bottom 4. Not counting Merus since he probably lost his Angel powers.
I don't think I'm sold on Gohan being strongest until I see it in the manga. Agree on Broly's potential but yeah, that's in the air.

IMO when we see Gohan and Piccolo's new forms in the manga, Gohan will be above Sign but below UI/UE and SSBE, and Piccolo will be below UI Sign. I'm waiting to be proven wrong but I don't see Goku and Vegeta having their latest arc and then going through additional training for Freeza and being surpassed by Gohan from a movie that takes place earlier in the continuity, where all powerscaling happens with Goku/Vegeta still capped out at SSJB for the most part.

I agree with you on the bottom rung of the power ladder, but my question was in response to Yuji saying 10 characters could all be argued as the strongest in the universe. He's since clarified he was just musing, which makes sense.

I think Freeza is the strongest, followed by Goku, then Vegeta, and then Granolah, followed by Gohan and Broly being about equal and Piccolo behind them. At least that's how I see it being portrayed in the manga. Interested to see how it actually plays out, and bummed it'll probably be at least a year before that happens.

Black Freeza
TUI Goku
UE Vegeta
Granolah
MUI Goku
SSBE Vegeta
Gohan Beast/Broly LSSJ
UI Omen Goku
Orange Piccolo
SSJB Goku Kaiokenx20
SSJB Goku
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:13 pm

The entire point of Gohan as a fighter is that his dormant strength surpasses his dad's, and Gohan Beast is the apex of that. He absolutely should be stronger than Goku and Vegeta in any form. A fully-realized Broly could be even stronger still, since Toriyama considers him among the last lines of defense against Perfect Cell Max.

The real mystery here is Black Freeza. We know he's stronger than Goku and Vegeta, but that doesn't necessarily put him at the #1 spot. Then again, he very well might be if he's going to be a main antagonist.
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