Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:08 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:12 pm Either I use smaller multipliers or I have to have SSB Gogeta and Broly be like a thousand times stronger than the ToP and since Super Hero lumped Broly with Jiren then that's impossible.
You either ignore the official multipliers or you get the big numbers... That's why AT gave up after he introduced SSJ, lol.
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:37 pm Reading the discussion that the Granola arc didn't have more than 2x gap between the fighters, a 20-fold boost ouf of fusion seems like a respectable boost.
Yep. From the top of my head, I think this is what we have about fusion:

Anime says Potara is tens of times;
DBS: Broly says Metamorian is more than the sum of it's parts;
SEG calls both types multiplication;
GT Perfect Files says SSJ4 Gogeta is tens of times either SSJ4;
Son Goku Densetsu says Metamorian is many times the fusers.

SEG is obviously out and GT is a bit on the lower end, but since it's GT we don't have to bother. Looking at the rest, I think Potara is 20x the stronger fuser under proper conditions (Which excludes Old Kaioshin, Kibitoshin, and Manga MZ), while Metamorian (Sans Gogeta) is just "many times", the original figure used in the Densetsu often being used for 3-6x in Japan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:08 pm

But what about Kefla?

Using a smaller multiplier for Super Saiyan would make her base be > SSB Goku and that's not what's shown in the fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:14 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:08 pm But what about Kefla?

Using a smaller multiplier for Super Saiyan would make her base be > SSB Goku and that's not what's shown in the fight.
She's not a normal SSJ, she's a LSSJ/SSJ Berserker like Kale. Look at her hair: It's got the same green tint as Berserker Kale, instead of the yellow-ish green SSJ Kale has.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:18 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:14 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:08 pm But what about Kefla?

Using a smaller multiplier for Super Saiyan would make her base be > SSB Goku and that's not what's shown in the fight.
She's not a normal SSJ, she's a LSSJ/SSJ Berserker like Kale. Look at her hair: It's got the same green tint as Berserker Kale, instead of the yellow-ish green SSJ Kale has.
I know but I don't know how to feel about LSS giving more power to a fusion than SSB since LSS Kefla > SSBKKx20 Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:53 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:35 am
picc wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:50 am Historically, how much stronger does Black Freeza need to be than Goku and Vegeta to one shot them like that?
I may be the odd man out in this what’s estimation. But I wouldn’t be surprised that he is five to ten times stronger than them. The reason why I think this was, he prob saw and remembered Gogeta Blue and Broly. So when he trained for all that time in the time chamber, he probably not only wanted to surpass them. But make sure they could not touch him. So I think he is way stronger than what we’re thinking.
Yeah I mean, me and Thani had some conservative projections, but I wouldn't be surprised at any level of strength for Freeza. He was obviously holding back and/or playing around when he hit them, so he could be much much stronger than any projections so far.

Technically, he defeated them with more ease than Beerus ever has.
Last edited by picc on Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm

Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:11 pm

picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.
If he could manage it, then he probably would be able to defeat Gogeta, unless Gogeta uses forms stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
I think Freeza’s weakness is that whenever he feels he is on top he stops caring about improving further. That’s why he eventually loses. He is the perfect antithesis to Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:22 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:11 pm
picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.
If he could manage it, then he probably would be able to defeat Gogeta, unless Gogeta uses forms stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
I think Freeza’s weakness is that whenever he feels he is on top he stops caring about improving further. That’s why he eventually loses. He is the perfect antithesis to Goku.
Do you think Broly would be stronger than TUI/UE/Granolah if he hit SSJ2? Maybe even Black Freeza tier.

As far as Freeza, even if that's true, that wouldn't stop his body from increasing its power during a fight if simple light sparring/training can do what its done for him. I get that manga doesn't work that way and there are a billion similar plot holes, just wondering if its been discussed here.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:27 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:18 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:14 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:08 pm But what about Kefla?

Using a smaller multiplier for Super Saiyan would make her base be > SSB Goku and that's not what's shown in the fight.
She's not a normal SSJ, she's a LSSJ/SSJ Berserker like Kale. Look at her hair: It's got the same green tint as Berserker Kale, instead of the yellow-ish green SSJ Kale has.
I know but I don't know how to feel about LSS giving more power to a fusion than SSB since LSS Kefla > SSBKKx20 Goku.
I guess SSJ1 can be 50x for fusion since SSJ Broly is undeniably 50x SSJB anyway. It’s more the SSJ-SSJB gap that the movies downplay.
picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
Like, normal SSJ2 or LSSJ2?

Either way, he’d be stronger than Beerus and Gogeta for sure. If we’re talking about LSSJ2 I think he’d be above Cell Max too, but weaker than Gohan.

Come to think of it, I think that explains how Freeza is still on pair with Goku and Vegeta despite not training as much. He probably needs some time to rest in order to power up properly though, and the fact he needed 10 years in the Rosat might suggest he tapped the bulk of his potential in those first 4 months. Or those were just newbie gains.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:37 pm

For the DBS anime, the regular multiplier theory applies just fine. Kefla and her SS forms are pretty straightforward. Same for Vegito Blue, no previous forms to mess things up like in Broly, the DBS manga, or Z (Gotenks, and base Vegito, we looking at you).

It seems some theories might not apply to every fusion. Which is logical, considering not every fusion has been written by the same person, and they depend on different plot needs.
But Kefla being the outlier could be worked out by virtue of her being part LSS, IDK, thus her being the only one with the regular SS multiplier... although Vegito has it as well, apparently, in the manga, so maybe it's the Potara? :think: .
It's a headache really, nothing will ever make 100% sense due to the lax approach to fusion.

picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
He'd double the power he had in the Broly movie. With some bonus, I guess, just like Kefla.
We know UI Goku can tank Moro7-3, who was above Broly, so he would also tank Broly, easier. How strong do you need to be to tank somebody? I guess a 2x boost would do, if 2nd form Cell got that boost after absorbing 18, and managed to tank 16's punch.
But LSS2 Broly might get a bonus or his power might keep on increasing for a while. He'd be at UI Goku level, or above, from the Moro arc. Whatever bonus boost he'd get, he'd still be below Granola who is clearly above the Moro arc entirely. He caps at Granola before the red eye is unlocked. At best, I can see him on par with UE Vegeta, but they seem way above the Moro arc.

BONUS Q: I don't think so, he clearly has more gains in less time than anybody else, but after 10 years of training I would've expected him to use the Golden form to oneshot everybody, yet he used a brand new form.
We also don't really know how fast he grows, it took him 4 months, yes, but we don't know how that happened. Does he need to rest after some time? maybe he needs to rest for like a week before being able to train again, maybe the gains are acrued up until a certain point and only then he gets a huge boost after apparently stagnanting for a while. It was implied he unlocked the golden form by the end of his 4 month training.

We still don't know much about Black Freeza, but if he got that strong in 4 months, then 10 years at the same rate should place him above Whis. So, his recent gains might not be as impressive if we compare them to his previous one.
He went from 120M to SSB level in 4 months. It took Goku 10 years or so.
Now he went from SSB level to above True UI in 10 years. It took Goku a year or so.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:27 pm

picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:22 pm Do you think Broly would be stronger than TUI/UE/Granolah if he hit SSJ2? Maybe even Black Freeza tier.

As far as Freeza, even if that's true, that wouldn't stop his body from increasing its power during a fight if simple light sparring/training can do what its done for him. I get that manga doesn't work that way and there are a billion similar plot holes, just wondering if its been discussed here.
It depends on how the manga will adapt Broly. Usually, whenever he is mentioned he is told to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta when he uses Super Saiyan, but even he is in danger against Freeza. I would say, by the time Super Hero happens, Beast Gohan, Super Saiyan Broly, Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta are relative to each other, and I see Black Freeza comfortably above them. So, maybe SS2 or SS3 wouldn’t be enough to surpass Freeza, Broly would likely need something more extreme and unique to him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 am

How many times stronger do you think Black Freeza was than Goku and Vegeta, and if they were given Senzus, who would come out on top?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:12 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 am How many times stronger do you think Black Freeza was than Goku and Vegeta, and if they were given Senzus, who would come out on top?
That was discussed on the previous page.
To oneshot an opponent, the original story considered that a 1.25x gap would do it.

I'm not sure if that's also enough to pierce through a person with just one's fist. Ki attacks have more power than a regular blow.
In any case, he held his punches against the saiyans, who were weaker than Gas. So no, no senzu is closing the gap between them and Freeza. It probably wouldn't do much against Gas either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:27 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:12 pm
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 am How many times stronger do you think Black Freeza was than Goku and Vegeta, and if they were given Senzus, who would come out on top?
That was discussed on the previous page.
To oneshot an opponent, the original story considered that a 1.25x gap would do it.

I'm not sure if that's also enough to pierce through a person with just one's fist. Ki attacks have more power than a regular blow.
In any case, he held his punches against the saiyans, who were weaker than Gas. So no, no senzu is closing the gap between them and Freeza. It probably wouldn't do much against Gas either.
Wasn't Gas body right at the point of breaking apart?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:44 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:27 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:12 pm
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 am How many times stronger do you think Black Freeza was than Goku and Vegeta, and if they were given Senzus, who would come out on top?
That was discussed on the previous page.
To oneshot an opponent, the original story considered that a 1.25x gap would do it.

I'm not sure if that's also enough to pierce through a person with just one's fist. Ki attacks have more power than a regular blow.
In any case, he held his punches against the saiyans, who were weaker than Gas. So no, no senzu is closing the gap between them and Freeza. It probably wouldn't do much against Gas either.
Wasn't Gas body right at the point of breaking apart?
He was still beating them and he also healed himself when he powered up to fight Freeza, not his face but he recovered his left arm. But yeah, Elecc said he was about to run out of gas (pun intended), so come to think about it, a senzu might've bought them enough time to outlast him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:12 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 am How many times stronger do you think Black Freeza was than Goku and Vegeta, and if they were given Senzus, who would come out on top?
Between 2 and 3 times is my guess. With or without senzu beans, I don’t think the outcome would be different.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:29 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:37 pm For the DBS anime, the regular multiplier theory applies just fine. Kefla and her SS forms are pretty straightforward. Same for Vegito Blue, no previous forms to mess things up like in Broly, the DBS manga, or Z (Gotenks, and base Vegito, we looking at you).

It seems some theories might not apply to every fusion. Which is logical, considering not every fusion has been written by the same person, and they depend on different plot needs.
But Kefla being the outlier could be worked out by virtue of her being part LSS, IDK, thus her being the only one with the regular SS multiplier... although Vegito has it as well, apparently, in the manga, so maybe it's the Potara? :think: .
It's a headache really, nothing will ever make 100% sense due to the lax approach to fusion.

picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
He'd double the power he had in the Broly movie. With some bonus, I guess, just like Kefla.
We know UI Goku can tank Moro7-3, who was above Broly, so he would also tank Broly, easier. How strong do you need to be to tank somebody? I guess a 2x boost would do, if 2nd form Cell got that boost after absorbing 18, and managed to tank 16's punch.
But LSS2 Broly might get a bonus or his power might keep on increasing for a while. He'd be at UI Goku level, or above, from the Moro arc. Whatever bonus boost he'd get, he'd still be below Granola who is clearly above the Moro arc entirely. He caps at Granola before the red eye is unlocked. At best, I can see him on par with UE Vegeta, but they seem way above the Moro arc.

BONUS Q: I don't think so, he clearly has more gains in less time than anybody else, but after 10 years of training I would've expected him to use the Golden form to oneshot everybody, yet he used a brand new form.
We also don't really know how fast he grows, it took him 4 months, yes, but we don't know how that happened. Does he need to rest after some time? maybe he needs to rest for like a week before being able to train again, maybe the gains are acrued up until a certain point and only then he gets a huge boost after apparently stagnanting for a while. It was implied he unlocked the golden form by the end of his 4 month training.

We still don't know much about Black Freeza, but if he got that strong in 4 months, then 10 years at the same rate should place him above Whis. So, his recent gains might not be as impressive if we compare them to his previous one.
He went from 120M to SSB level in 4 months. It took Goku 10 years or so.
Now he went from SSB level to above True UI in 10 years. It took Goku a year or so.
Good point about needing time to recover before the gains can kick in. That is how training IRL works, so yeah, makes sense. Still has to be crazy fast though. Makes you wonder if he was in a fight with Goku, then called for an hour recess, by the time it was over he'd be stronger.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:37 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:27 pm
picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:22 pm Do you think Broly would be stronger than TUI/UE/Granolah if he hit SSJ2? Maybe even Black Freeza tier.

As far as Freeza, even if that's true, that wouldn't stop his body from increasing its power during a fight if simple light sparring/training can do what its done for him. I get that manga doesn't work that way and there are a billion similar plot holes, just wondering if its been discussed here.
It depends on how the manga will adapt Broly. Usually, whenever he is mentioned he is told to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta when he uses Super Saiyan, but even he is in danger against Freeza. I would say, by the time Super Hero happens, Beast Gohan, Super Saiyan Broly, Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta are relative to each other, and I see Black Freeza comfortably above them. So, maybe SS2 or SS3 wouldn’t be enough to surpass Freeza, Broly would likely need something more extreme and unique to him.
Yeah I can see LSSJ2 Broly being above UI and UE but below Freeza.

I actually really hope that happens. He should just keep achieving SSJ forms. His base is already so high that if he hit SSJ3, he'd probably be Beerus level.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:52 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:27 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:18 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:14 pm

She's not a normal SSJ, she's a LSSJ/SSJ Berserker like Kale. Look at her hair: It's got the same green tint as Berserker Kale, instead of the yellow-ish green SSJ Kale has.
I know but I don't know how to feel about LSS giving more power to a fusion than SSB since LSS Kefla > SSBKKx20 Goku.
I guess SSJ1 can be 50x for fusion since SSJ Broly is undeniably 50x SSJB anyway. It’s more the SSJ-SSJB gap that the movies downplay.
picc wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:58 pm Hypothetically, if Broly went SSJ2 while training on Beerus' planet with Goku and Vegeta, how strong do we think he'd get?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that he is indeed capable of going SSJ2, and his SSJ level is similar or a little stronger than what he showed against Gogeta.

Bonus Question: I'm sure its been discussed ad nauseum here, but Freeza's training gains potential is kind of a plot hole right? If he gained power at the hyper-accelerated rate he does through training, shouldn't he basically be invincible in any fight, as a result of rapidly getting stronger the longer it goes on?
Like, normal SSJ2 or LSSJ2?

Either way, he’d be stronger than Beerus and Gogeta for sure. If we’re talking about LSSJ2 I think he’d be above Cell Max too, but weaker than Gohan.

Come to think of it, I think that explains how Freeza is still on pair with Goku and Vegeta despite not training as much. He probably needs some time to rest in order to power up properly though, and the fact he needed 10 years in the Rosat might suggest he tapped the bulk of his potential in those first 4 months. Or those were just newbie gains.
Wait, are you saying he'd be stronger than Beerus or weaker than Gohan? Cause those are two different levels.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:56 pm

In the canon, there are no implications there is a LSS2 or LSS3 for mutant Saiyans like Broly in Kale and whenever there were forms like that it was anime only. That V Jump or Shonen Jump article that came out not too long ago said Broly only needed to learn to control his LSS form as it is already his ultimate form, and the official Dragon Ball website also refers to it as his ultimate form and evolution or something.

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