Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Mr Baggins
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:38 pm

Probably best to see where the series leads us. It's a bit pointless to argue about it at this juncture.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:06 am

It's important to note that in every battle we've seen Prime Moro engaged in, the narrative makes it a point to emphasize how high his battle power was. Not only do Gohan and Piccolo emphasize how large it is, but we are even given a visual representation of Moro's aura stalemating UI Omen Goku's momentarily. After he absorbs Moro-73, it is explicitly stated that his battle power had increased (rather than simply emphasizing that his magic had increased). I don't think there's ever a point where divorcing Moro from his magic leaves us with a fighter that is much weaker without it. Moro's magic certainly makes him tougher but not drastically. Moro's battle power should be up to snuff all things considered.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:34 pm

Yeah. Goku and Co thought all Moro had/relied on was absorbing his foes power. However, Moro revealed that he only absorbs to fill his stomach when he is hungry. Weakening his opponents and gaining their energy are only "fortunate side effects" but "not the main goal."

It came to everyone's surprise when Moro said he will defeat Goku by sheer power and will drain his ki after he physically defeats Goku. Since Moro was already full from absorbing "countless planets" before arriving on earth. Moro then proceeded to beat up UI Sign Goku, agreeing that he was "weak" in his conversation with Vegeta. Then even the stronger Vegeta couldn't contend with Moro. They needed to fuse to beat Moro. Moro was a monster in ki power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:39 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:58 pm Dragonball in it's entirety is about Goku always fighting the next big bad and strongest guy. Vegeta was the current strongest in Saiyan Saga and Goku wanted to fight him again. Freeza was the next current strongest in Namek and he wanted him to go train so he could fight him again. Same with Majin Buu. That's why he was so interested in Uub. He did the same with Beerus in Bog, said Freeza would make a great rival in RoF, and the same with Broly in DBS: Broly movie. Goku is always about the current strongest foe.

Even in the Galactic Patrol arc this was mentioned in the conversation Goku had with Merus. Goku said the "strongest guys tend to be villains" so instead of ending their lives to stop them from doing evil again he rather get stronger and fight them again, possibly turning them to his side. We see this very same consistent plot point with Goku's talk with Moro 73 about letting him live so he could train to fight him again. In the whole context of Dragonball tough means overall power. Moro at that time was Goku's strongest opponent.
Beerus and Whis were his strongest opponents at the time. (Or … probably, for Beerus, given all that ambiguity.) We’re already making qualifiers.

Super also abandons the traditional “each antagonist stronger than the last” trajectory right at the start, with the transition from Beerus to Golden Freeza, and then characters like Hit in the manga—a return to main antagonists who aren’t even traditionally stronger than the heroes.

But all that said—it’s perfectly believable from the presentation in the manga that Moro is stronger than Broly, and there’s plenty to back it up. I just think it’s worth noting that the dialogue kind of explicitly refrains from committing to it, at least in Japanese. Maybe it’s just for the minor chance that some future Toriyama development could force him to tip his hand, but Toyotaro builds in just a little wiggle room.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:59 pm

I definitely still hold to the idea that, even if every subsequent antagonist has been technically stronger, it's not by any real significant amount.

In raw power in my personal opinion, the power of Jiren, Broly, Moro, Granolah, Gas, and Cell Max are all relative to each other; differences lie in how that power is expressed and used.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:38 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:59 pm I definitely still hold to the idea that, even if every subsequent antagonist has been technically stronger, it's not by any real significant amount.

In raw power in my personal opinion, the power of Jiren, Broly, Moro, Granolah, Gas, and Cell Max are all relative to each other; differences lie in how that power is expressed and used.
I tend toward this (they’re all just “very strong”), but I think it’s worth noting that the series does give us some distinctions which are a little more clear cut and significant than the Moro/Broly/Beerus vagaries.

For example, Jiren and Moro both struggle with if not outright lose to UI, which Gas and Black Freeza firmly defeat. Etc.

And we know that, by whatever margin, the main four of the Granolah arc (Granolah, Gas, Goku and Vegeta) are at least stronger than Broly at that point, as Granolah begins there at a minimum due to the wish and they all one-up each other from there. (And then obviously Freeza’s on top at the end and this no longer seems to be by a margin of degrees.)

But yeah, I really do think that when the manga absolutely wants a strength comparison to be clear—and I’ve brought this up before—it’ll just do it. With that in mind, whatever was going on with Moro that prevented Toyotaro from wanting to do that stands out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:55 am

I think Broly should be much stronger than Jiren based on the Broly novelization in which Frieza believed no one in existence could stand up to SSJ Broly after the thrashing he received. Moro, on the other hand, certainly leaves enough room for Broly to still be within range of him. The Moro arc makes it clear that both Goku and Vegeta made significant gains but Goku and Vegeta required a Blue fusion to overcome Broly. Gohan and Piccolo remark on how far Goku pulled ahead of them in his Blue form. The scene in which Vegeta interrupted his training left him winding up a blast magnitudes higher than what he expected which was meant to highlight the effect of his spirit training. Those gains could be compensated for by the use of Blue fusion which is why Moro doesn't necessarily have to be leagues ahead of Broly but still notably ahead to easily defeat Blue Evolved Vegeta who may or may not have surpassed Broly as of Chapter 68.

That isn't the case in the Granolah arc where they would have to be much stronger than what they were in the Moro arc to compete with Granolah. Goku even makes it a point during his fight with Granolah that both he and Vegeta had been training a lot so Granolah wouldn't claim the "strongest in U7" title so easily. That was a clear indication that Goku and Vegeta made significant strides during their training with Whis and Beerus. That was also made clear when Goku and Vegeta believed that Granolah's clone was the strongest of Universe 7 from the onset. He even managed to effortlessly replicate Moro's energy-absorptive technique. Granolah's clone was weaker than the original and Blue Evolved Vegeta managed to push Granolah into using a precise blow to the vitals to take him out. From there on, three manage to one-up Gas multiple times to the point where Gas, who managed to fend off both Silver-haired Goku and UE Vegeta at the same time, lost to True UI Goku before undergoing another significant power-up.

Black Frieza would be self-explanatory. He's in a completely different dimension compared to Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, and Gas.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:20 pm

While Moro being really tough could imply how hard it was for them to take him down, was it tougher than beating Buu?
Nobody died, Earth didn't explode, the DBs weren't needed, the main fight happened within one day. I feel, in that case, Buu would stop being a dire benchmark and become another dead foe, and we know the franchise still treats Buu like a big deal. While possible, I doubt they would leave the Buu events behind in that fashion, when this midquel tries to do its own thing without stepping over the original series.

RE: Moro's magic... Moro dropped that approach after Namek. He grew stronger and turned into a brawler, on Earth he only tried magic twice, when he tried to drain Sign Goku and failed, and when he used it as a diversion to eat 7-3. Eating 7-3 wasn't magic, it was mostly his physiognomy. On Earth, they struggled with his strenght and anatomy, not his magic, at least until the time of the quote.

While the most obvious interpretation of the "tough" remark is the most straight-forward one (no, Beerus and Whis weren't included, neither was Zeno), I believe is like Cipher said: small print just in case there's something else in store for those surpassed by Moro. A clever way to dial it down if they have to, but the context points to a regular power-related discussion.


RE: Gohan and Broly's rage. I don't think they are comparable. Gohan was only showing glimpses of it after several third-party attempts for his rage to come out. It took a while for him to respond to Raditz, Nappa, on Namek, 7 Cell Jrs weren't enough either... and it was always short-lived, except vs Cell.
While Broly got mad because he was being beaten, and that was it, he was consumed by it and entered auto-pilot. He got even madder when Goku said one little thing, and was never a fleeting thing, he embraced that and his power kept rising until.
To me, Gohan is like a guy on the edge of a rage river, slowly being pushed towards the water against his own will, while Broly is going down the stream without any hang ups.
That's why I don't think you can say Gohan could've been the strongest when his power used to last moments and took so much for it to be drawn out, while Broly's rage comes out with the most feeble attempt and will not stop, it'll keep on going.
Gohan, as seen, was never reliable, while Broly well... push him and he'll snap just like that. If somebody goes to Vampa and starts a fight, I don't see how his power wouldn't reach its previous heights. He might not be able to turn blond to pick up chicks at the bar, but he should be able to do so in order to survive.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:26 pm

Broly had been surpassed by Black Frieza, Gohan Beast, and Cell Max regardless. He may have somehow regained the advantage on Goku and Vegeta but that's where he stops.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:47 am

Personally, I think the movie established Broly as being stronger than Beast Gohan. After all, Toriyama made it clear that Cell Max would only defeat Broly if he wasn't forcibly activated earlier when he was a mindless monster. Beast Gohan on the other hand, was said to be incapable of defeating mindless Cell Max without the help of Gamma 2. The movie only establishes Gohan as the "mightiest warrior" because he has power that surpasses both Goku and Vegeta. Otherwise, the movie doesn't really establish as Gohan being the strongest in Universe 7.

However, I think it may be different in the manga where Beast Gohan surpasses everyone. The manga adaption of Super Hero will be a direct continuation of the "strongest of Universe 7" plotline which was still left unresolved but will be presented as a mystery that will be solved. Beast Gohan plays a significant role in the storyline and is the strongest warrior that appears in Super Hero. Black Frieza is not the prophesized strongest U7 warrior so that rules him out. Broly may surpass everyone but he does not play a significant role in the story. That leaves room for Beast Gohan to be the strongest which may be possible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:38 am

Even after Gamma 2's sacrifice the narrative stated Gohan is the strongest when angry. Just as Toriyama also said. Even after Piccolo said they would of never won against Cell Max without the Gamma's help, "even" Goku/Vegeta might've lost, all the reason why Piccolo told Gohan to stay in shape. It concludes Gohan is the man when ready.

Broly in Super Hero needed to be hidden from Freeza "to be safe." This implies Freeza would of got in Broly's cookie jar.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:45 am

Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:38 am Even after Gamma 2's sacrifice the narrative stated Gohan is the strongest when angry. Just as Toriyama also said. Even after Piccolo said they would of never won without the Gamma's help, Even Goku/Vegeta might've lost, all the reason why Piccolo told Gohan to stay in shape. It concludes Gohan is the man when ready.

Broly in Super Hero needed to be hidden from Freeza "to be safe." This implies Freeza would of got in Broly's cookie jar.
To be fair, Freeza was specifically trying to recruit Broly in order to defeat Goku and Vegeta with his help, by the end of his DBS: Broly. I wonder how that plot point would go now that he's Black, or if it'll be dropped altogether and he's just looking to kill all saiyans outright.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:22 pm

Gohan is most definitely referred to the strongest by Toriyama, Broly is not an exception from that and neither is Frieza. Only GoDs and Angels are excepted from these statements, and though it's debatable I believe other Universes are excepted from it too. So in U7 Gohan is the strongest mortal as of SH, Frieza is in second place with Broly being above Goku and Vegeta again. Of course as pointed out we don't know how the manga will do things pertaining to Gohans strength as they could easily change it all and have Gohan be simply tied with Goku and Vegeta or even weaker than Goku and Vegeta. But as it stands as of the last Granolah arc chapter, Gohan is the strongest mortal Whis and the Fish prophesized about because it was directly insinuated that it was not Frieza despite him one-shotting Goku and Vegeta and it skips right ahead to 4 months before the SH movie for Goten and Trunks Hero Arc which in the story lasts a month.. then 3 months later SH happens.

Also, yes Frieza now that he has Black Frieza is certainly looking to kill Broly which is why he is being kept safe from Frieza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:43 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:45 am
Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:38 am Even after Gamma 2's sacrifice the narrative stated Gohan is the strongest when angry. Just as Toriyama also said. Even after Piccolo said they would of never won without the Gamma's help, Even Goku/Vegeta might've lost, all the reason why Piccolo told Gohan to stay in shape. It concludes Gohan is the man when ready.

Broly in Super Hero needed to be hidden from Freeza "to be safe." This implies Freeza would of got in Broly's cookie jar.
To be fair, Freeza was specifically trying to recruit Broly in order to defeat Goku and Vegeta with his help, by the end of his DBS: Broly. I wonder how that plot point would go now that he's Black, or if it'll be dropped altogether and he's just looking to kill all saiyans outright.
True. However doesn't look like Freeza needs Broly now since he just one shotted all three of the universe's strongest consecutively. Based on Freeza's character, I'm assuming He will kill Broly for the beating he took back in DBS Broly. Otherwise why would Goku and Vegeta hide Broly from Freeza to "keep him safe?"
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:22 pm Gohan is most definitely referred to the strongest by Toriyama, Broly is not an exception from that and neither is Frieza. Only GoDs and Angels are excepted from these statements, and though it's debatable I believe other Universes are excepted from it too. So in U7 Gohan is the strongest mortal as of SH, Frieza is in second place with Broly being above Goku and Vegeta again. Of course as pointed out we don't know how the manga will do things pertaining to Gohans strength as they could easily change it all and have Gohan be simply tied with Goku and Vegeta or even weaker than Goku and Vegeta. But as it stands as of the last Granolah arc chapter, Gohan is the strongest mortal Whis and the Fish prophesized about because it was directly insinuated that it was not Frieza despite him one-shotting Goku and Vegeta and it skips right ahead to 4 months before the SH movie for Goten and Trunks Hero Arc which in the story lasts a month.. then 3 months later SH happens.

Also, yes Frieza now that he has Black Frieza is certainly looking to kill Broly which is why he is being kept safe from Frieza.
Agreed. However Toyotaro has to follow the plot point and Toriyama's intentions of Gohan being the man again. This is the way I see it...

1.Gohan Beast
2.Freeza
3.Broly
4.Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:18 pm

Freeza said in the movie that Broly would be unstoppable if he controlled himself. That’s good reason to want him on his side, but even better reason to want him dead.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:05 pm

Cipher wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:39 pm
Miracles wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:58 pm Dragonball in it's entirety is about Goku always fighting the next big bad and strongest guy. Vegeta was the current strongest in Saiyan Saga and Goku wanted to fight him again. Freeza was the next current strongest in Namek and he wanted him to go train so he could fight him again. Same with Majin Buu. That's why he was so interested in Uub. He did the same with Beerus in Bog, said Freeza would make a great rival in RoF, and the same with Broly in DBS: Broly movie. Goku is always about the current strongest foe.

Even in the Galactic Patrol arc this was mentioned in the conversation Goku had with Merus. Goku said the "strongest guys tend to be villains" so instead of ending their lives to stop them from doing evil again he rather get stronger and fight them again, possibly turning them to his side. We see this very same consistent plot point with Goku's talk with Moro 73 about letting him live so he could train to fight him again. In the whole context of Dragonball tough means overall power. Moro at that time was Goku's strongest opponent.
Beerus and Whis were his strongest opponents at the time. (Or … probably, for Beerus, given all that ambiguity.) We’re already making qualifiers.

Super also abandons the traditional “each antagonist stronger than the last” trajectory right at the start, with the transition from Beerus to Golden Freeza, and then characters like Hit in the manga—a return to main antagonists who aren’t even traditionally stronger than the heroes.

But all that said—it’s perfectly believable from the presentation in the manga that Moro is stronger than Broly, and there’s plenty to back it up. I just think it’s worth noting that the dialogue kind of explicitly refrains from committing to it, at least in Japanese. Maybe it’s just for the minor chance that some future Toriyama development could force him to tip his hand, but Toyotaro builds in just a little wiggle room.
You're right that Super seems more vague than the original Dragonball. However the power escalation is still present if that makes sense?

Beerus was set up as a goal for Goku in BoG. That has stayed outright consistent all the way until Super Hero, where Beerus is still said to be the strongest just like he was back in BoG. Even though Freeza came in RoF, still the power level escalated, where our hero goes from Super Saiyan Red to Super Saiyan Blue. Even Hit faced a stronger Blue Goku who trained in the Room of Spirit and Time for three days [three years]. Here's the kicker Hit was limited since he could not go all out using his killing techniques.

The next enemy overcoming the last is there but assumed. Toriyama hasn't changed his tune at all really.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:01 am

I'm not so sure if the movie establishes Beast Gohan as being the strongest. In fact, it was Toriyama who stated that Broly would only lose to Cell Max if he hadn't been forcibly activated as a mindless creature. In contrast, Piccolo blatantly stated that Gohan and himself would not have beaten the Mindless Cell Max without Gamma 2s' help. In fact, it was Gohan who blatantly compares Cell Max to Goku and Vegeta which established Goku and Vegeta as the benchmark. After all, the narrative foreshadowed Gohan becoming the strongest by surpassing Goku based on Pan's conversation with Piccolo. Piccolo doesn't really outright claim that Gohan would be the strongest. He merely suggests that Gohan could surpass Goku if he put his mind to it. Piccolo claiming Gohan will be the strongest definitively was likely due to Piccolo having more confidence in that assessment i.e "Gohan > Goku" after seeing what Gohan could do.

The manga is a different beast since a central theme that will be touched up on is who the strongest in Universe 7 is which includes Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, and Black Frieza who Whis implied was not the strongest in Universe 7.

My perspective is:

Movie:
1. Beerus
2. Completed Cell Max
3. Broly
4. Beast Gohan
5. Mindless Cell Max
6. Goku/Vegeta
7. Orange Piccolo

And Jiren falls somewhere above Goku and Vegeta. His placement is really not clear beyond Goku establishing that Jiren was still much stronger than them.

Manga:
1. Beerus
2. Beast Gohan
3. Black Frieza
4. Cell Max
5. Goku/Vegeta/Granolah
6. Orange Piccolo
7. Moro
8. Broly
9. Jiren

Whether Broly becomes stronger in the manga adaption of Super Hero is unknown. This is just operating on what we know thus far.

That said, I'm not sure if Broly hiding from Frieza really means anything more than Goku and Vegeta hiding Broly from Frieza since Frieza would likely provoke Broly and put him into a frenzy which would jeopardize everyones' life. But, it would be a clever inclusion to suggest they were hiding Broly from Black Frieza because Black Frieza was the strongest of U7 for now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:44 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:43 pm Otherwise why would Goku and Vegeta hide Broly from Freeza to "keep him safe?"
Because Freeza wants to recruit him, perhaps forcibly. Goku and Vegeta are obviously against that. That line's just following up from the previous film where it was established that Freeza's still looking for him. Super Hero wasn't written with the Granolah arc in mind.

With that said, this new Black Freeza form could be a good way of lending further weight to those motives. He'd still want him to join up, presumably, but now Broly is genuinely in danger of being subdued; failing recruitment, he might alternatively want Broly out of the picture if he sees him as a potential threat.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:02 pm

In context Gamma's help came before Gohan Beast. Gamma's aided Piccolo in awakening Gohan Beast through weakening Cell Max in order for Orange Piccolo to almost sacrifice himself, allowing Gohan Beast to enter. This was Piccolo's entire goal throughout the movie. He wasn't dependent on the Gamma's for victory. Only Gohan.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:44 pm
Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:43 pm Otherwise why would Goku and Vegeta hide Broly from Freeza to "keep him safe?"
Because Freeza wants to recruit him, perhaps forcibly. Goku and Vegeta are obviously against that. That line's just following up from the previous film where it was established that Freeza's still looking for him. Super Hero wasn't written with the Granolah arc in mind.

With that said, this new Black Freeza form could be a good way of lending further weight to those motives. He'd still want him to join up, presumably, but now Broly is genuinely in danger of being subdued; failing recruitment, he might alternatively want Broly out of the picture if he sees him as a potential threat.
Well that's my dilemma, how are you going to force someone to join you if they are stronger than you?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:27 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:02 pm Well that's my dilemma, how are you going to force someone to join you if they are stronger than you?
That's why I said Black Freeza gives stronger credence to that idea. My point is that hiding Broly to "keep him safe" still fits reasonably well with the recruitment angle from the last movie – he isn't necessarily trying to murder him, but could resort to it if needed.

Basically, the manga can bridge the gap here.
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