Goku9001 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:33 am
There's no way around it. Hedo intended for Cell Max's mental program to be complete before he was released. That's explicitly why Hedo opposed Magenta by stating that his mental program was incomplete so he could not be controlled. Magenta and Hedo wanting to control Cell Max does not at all imply that Cell Max would not have been stronger with an unstable mind. The fact that Toriyama's own work is consistent with the idea that control over your power is essential in battle along with the need to clarify that a Completed Cell Max is necessary to overpower Broly should be enough evidence that Cell Max was never at full power.
Cell Max was complete, the MIND CONTROL PROGRAM was not. It's them controling his mind, not he himself controlling his mind, so it would have had no difference on his actual power.
Cell Max's power would not have changed if he was under MIND CONTROL by Hedo and Magenta. He simply would not have been going berserk. That's literally it.
@hugo boss SS4 is entire dimensions of power above GGA. Proof is GGA Baby vs SS4 Goku. The reason being SS4 is a transformation from GGA and not just GGA but shrunk.
Toriyama clearly said that since Cell Max doesn't have his brain, he can't beat Broly. But if he had a brain, then he would be above Broly.
This shows that the Cell Max seen in the movie would not be able to defeat Broly in a fight, since he wasn't really completed. Only his body was completed, but Cell Max overall was not.
Goku9001 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:33 am
There's no way around it. Hedo intended for Cell Max's mental program to be complete before he was released. That's explicitly why Hedo opposed Magenta by stating that his mental program was incomplete so he could not be controlled. Magenta and Hedo wanting to control Cell Max does not at all imply that Cell Max would not have been stronger with an unstable mind. The fact that Toriyama's own work is consistent with the idea that control over your power is essential in battle along with the need to clarify that a Completed Cell Max is necessary to overpower Broly should be enough evidence that Cell Max was never at full power.
Cell Max was complete, the MIND CONTROL PROGRAM was not. It's them controling his mind, not he himself controlling his mind, so it would have had no difference on his actual power.
Cell Max's power would not have changed if he was under MIND CONTROL by Hedo and Magenta. He simply would not have been going berserk. That's literally it.
@hugo boss SS4 is entire dimensions of power above GGA. Proof is GGA Baby vs SS4 Goku. The reason being SS4 is a transformation from GGA and not just GGA but shrunk.
We understand what you are saying. Cell Max having a stable mind would mean that he isn't a deranged monster. Not being a deranged monster and instead being a creature with clarity of mind would allow him to rationalize and make his own choices. That would mean he would have greater control over his actions which would be similar to Broly's case as you've referenced.
Goku9001 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:44 am
We aren't talking about Magenta's control over Cell Max.
Yes, we are. That’s what mind control means and that’s the distinction AT is making. He says not even Broly would’ve stopped him and the opposes that by saying Cell became an “uncontrollable monster”
Without being specifically told to kill the Z Fighters, Cell was just attacking the likes of 18 and SSJ Gohan with no serious damage to them. There’s no mention that Cell should have a consciousness of his own anywhere in the movie or AT’s notes, just that the RRA should’ve been able to control him.
Goku9001 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:44 am
We aren't talking about Magenta's control over Cell Max.
Yes, we are. That’s what mind control means and that’s the distinction AT is making. He says not even Broly would’ve stopped him and the opposes that by saying Cell became an “uncontrollable monster”
Without being specifically told to kill the Z Fighters, Cell was just attacking the likes of 18 and SSJ Gohan with no serious damage to them. There’s no mention that Cell should have a consciousness of his own anywhere in the movie or AT’s notes, just that the RRA should’ve been able to control him.
Yes. He would not be an uncontrollable monster otherwise which suggests that Cell Max would have a mind of his own. Since he did not, he had no control over his actions.
Toriyama did say if Cell Max was completed according to plan, he would of been a "superhuman" that Broly couldn't even defeat. But instead became an "uncontrollable monster." Then says Cell Max just rampages around screaming.
Seems to me Toriyama is talking about the mind control program bringing Cell Max more human like [conscious intelligence]. Instead with the incomplete product we got a monster out of control.
All of this talk about Cell max and Broly is interesting, as Broly himself was a raging monster who had no real rational thought behind his rampaging power.
And seeing as how Broly hasn't learned to fully control his power yet, the comparison might well suggest that Broly is so fearsome in raw power that, even when uncontrollable, Cell Max couldn't be considered superior unless he himself could control his power.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:34 pm
All of this talk about Cell max and Broly is interesting, as Broly himself was a raging monster who had no real rational thought behind his rampaging power.
And seeing as how Broly hasn't learned to fully control his power yet, the comparison might well suggest that Broly is so fearsome in raw power that, even when uncontrollable, Cell Max couldn't be considered superior unless he himself could control his power.
Toriyama would likely be referring to current Broly who is learning to control his power, whereas in this case would make him closer to Gogeta and Cell Max would have been closer to what he was like. Either way Gohan Beast no diffed Cell Max, illustrating an astronomical difference between himself and Cell Max in power.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:34 pm
All of this talk about Cell max and Broly is interesting, as Broly himself was a raging monster who had no real rational thought behind his rampaging power.
And seeing as how Broly hasn't learned to fully control his power yet, the comparison might well suggest that Broly is so fearsome in raw power that, even when uncontrollable, Cell Max couldn't be considered superior unless he himself could control his power.
Toriyama would likely be referring to current Broly who is learning to control his power, whereas in this case would make him closer to Gogeta and Cell Max would have been closer to what he was like. Either way Gohan Beast no diffed Cell Max, illustrating an astronomical difference between himself and Cell Max in power.
Would this mean Cell Max is also close to Beerus? I assume the line about Broly wouldn't be retconned since we're only a year before EoZ. It doesn't seem like a lot of room to fit so many characters in that "stronger than some GoDs but may or may not be stronger than Beerus" range unless the gaps have been really small. Assuming they all surpass Belmond like Jiren then it might be Beerus > Jiren, Blue fusions, Broly, UI, UE, FP Moro, Granolah, Gas, Black Freeza, Beast Gohan, Piccolo, Cell Max (order of appearance) > Belmond and the other GoDs
Broly isn't even close to Beerus since a completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. Toriyama only said Broly would lose to such a Cell Max not Beerus. If Toriyama meant for Broly to be Beerus level [in DBS Broly] why didn't he say Broly and Beerus would lose? On top of that, In Super Hero, Beerus is still said to be the most feared in the universe. Broly is in this same universe.
Miracles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:20 amBroly isn't even close to Beerus since a completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. Toriyama only said Broly would lose to such a Cell Max not Beerus. If Toriyama meant for Broly to be Beerus level [in DBS Broly] why didn't he say Broly and Beerus would lose? On top of that, In Super Hero, Beerus is still said to be the most feared in the universe. Broly is in this same universe.
I had Broly weaker than Beerus in that comment. I was trying to get an idea of how far apart they would be. "Isn't even close" could vary in DB from the small gap between Vegeta and Cui or Dodoria to being several times stronger. I assume the antagonists and new transformations that appeared after Jiren are also stronger than Belmond. Could Beerus one shot Belmond? Beerus might be less than twice as strong as Belmond or the weakest GoD while all those other characters mentioned could be within that range.
Miracles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:20 am
Broly isn't even close to Beerus since a completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. Toriyama only said Broly would lose to such a Cell Max not Beerus. If Toriyama meant for Broly to be Beerus level [in DBS Broly] why didn't he say Broly and Beerus would lose? On top of that, In Super Hero, Beerus is still said to be the most feared in the universe. Broly is in this same universe.
I think you have it backwards. If Broly may be stronger than Beerus but would lose to Cell Max, then it stands to reason Beerus would also lose to Cell Max. Broly is the new measuring stick as of now.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:34 pm
All of this talk about Cell max and Broly is interesting, as Broly himself was a raging monster who had no real rational thought behind his rampaging power.
And seeing as how Broly hasn't learned to fully control his power yet, the comparison might well suggest that Broly is so fearsome in raw power that, even when uncontrollable, Cell Max couldn't be considered superior unless he himself could control his power.
Toriyama would likely be referring to current Broly who is learning to control his power, whereas in this case would make him closer to Gogeta and Cell Max would have been closer to what he was like. Either way Gohan Beast no diffed Cell Max, illustrating an astronomical difference between himself and Cell Max in power.
No, he was not. attack power is NOT power level. He lost one arm thereby reducing his attack power. It's quite literally shown in the movie. Cell Max's actual power was not weakened and he punched Gohan with the arm that had not been affected, obviously.. and couldn't even make it through Gohan's aura.
Toriyama would likely be referring to current Broly who is learning to control his power, whereas in this case would make him closer to Gogeta and Cell Max would have been closer to what he was like. Either way Gohan Beast no diffed Cell Max, illustrating an astronomical difference between himself and Cell Max in power.
No, he was not. attack power is NOT power level. He lost one arm thereby reducing his attack power. It's quite literally shown in the movie. Cell Max's actual power was not weakened and he punched Gohan with the arm that had not been affected, obviously.. and couldn't even make it through Gohan's aura.
But if his attack power dropped, then his power level did as well. If his punch pack the same power as always, then his attack power did not drop, only his number of ways to attack.
QuakingStar wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:10 pm
@hugo boss SS4 is entire dimensions of power above GGA. Proof is GGA Baby vs SS4 Goku. The reason being SS4 is a transformation from GGA and not just GGA but shrunk.
SS4 literally uses GGA’s power as its basis.
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files Vol.1 wrote:Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.
Golden Oozaru is the basis of its super power!!
After succeeding in regenerating his tail, Goku transformed into the mightiest and most violent Golden Oozaru, devoid of reason, who carried out nothing but destruction!! When this Golden Oozaru gained a human heart, the result was the birth of the mightiest of warriors, Super Saiyan 4, who combines reason with tremendous power!!
[red text] A red flash!! The ultimate Super Saiyan, who has achieved a super evolution!!!
What Goku achieved in Dragon Ball GT is pretty much what Cell Max is lacking here. There is no need to overanalize this matter.
Attack power is not power level, otherwise Goku's power level would have been 924 vs Raditz which is what his Kamehameha registered as, instead of 416 which was his actual power level. We also have the fact that some people are physically stronger than what their power level would suggest to begin with. or more durable than what their power level would suggest. Tagoma and the guy in the Moro arc are two examples. Cell Max's power itself never dropped, only his attack power.
Super Saiyan 4 does use GGA's power, but then it adds on the users potential. The literal actual proof is SS4 Goku vs GGA Baby Vegeta. Just SS Baby Vegeta alone was stronger than SS3 Goku. The power gap created after that with SB1 and the SB2 would make it impossible for GGA to equal SS4 in power, there is no other option other than SS4 is far beyong GGA in power.
Miracles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:20 am
Broly isn't even close to Beerus since a completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. Toriyama only said Broly would lose to such a Cell Max not Beerus. If Toriyama meant for Broly to be Beerus level [in DBS Broly] why didn't he say Broly and Beerus would lose? On top of that, In Super Hero, Beerus is still said to be the most feared in the universe. Broly is in this same universe.
I think you have it backwards. If Broly may be stronger than Beerus but would lose to Cell Max, then it stands to reason Beerus would also lose to Cell Max. Broly is the new measuring stick as of now.
Not when Super Hero has it said that Beerus is said to be the most fearsome in the universe.
Miracles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:20 amBroly isn't even close to Beerus since a completed Cell Max would defeat Broly. Toriyama only said Broly would lose to such a Cell Max not Beerus. If Toriyama meant for Broly to be Beerus level [in DBS Broly] why didn't he say Broly and Beerus would lose? On top of that, In Super Hero, Beerus is still said to be the most feared in the universe. Broly is in this same universe.
I had Broly weaker than Beerus in that comment. I was trying to get an idea of how far apart they would be. "Isn't even close" could vary in DB from the small gap between Vegeta and Cui or Dodoria to being several times stronger. I assume the antagonists and new transformations that appeared after Jiren are also stronger than Belmond. Could Beerus one shot Belmond? Beerus might be less than twice as strong as Belmond or the weakest GoD while all those other characters mentioned could be within that range.
According to the manga, Sidra "saved" Belmond from a Beerus hand blast.
Miracles wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:06 amAccording to the manga, Sidra "saved" Belmond from a Beerus hand blast.
That doesn't tell us much since they all seemed to be relatively close. The gap between Beerus and Belmond should be less than Vegeta vs Cui since that blast likely wouldn't have killed them and only knocked them out. Broly being close to Beerus could still work if he was intended to be stronger than some of those GoDs. I recall your argument was that Beerus would keep getting retconned to be the strongest until the end. It would make sense the gap between them gets smaller and smaller as we get closer to that ending.
