Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Bandai wafer stickers just released another set.

It has some interesting additions, like Cell Max and several Super Saiyan forms for comparisons. Apparently they have Cell Max, Super Saiyan Broly (not full power) and Beast Gohan in the same level. Beast Gohan with makankosappo has a higher number and surpasses Super Saiyan Gogeta, but it’s still treated as weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla and Ultra Instinct (Sign) Goku.

It's fun to see these comparisons, but they're also the same stickers that had Dabra at 4.000, a Cell Jr. at 5.200 and Mecha Freeza at 5.300.

It really brings down the credibility of the whole thing haha

Occasionally it makes some mistakes, but usually you don’t compare a set with another that was released with more than one year of difference. It makes corrections in updates (Gohan had 8,200 in September 2022 and now he has 8,400 in February 2023, to accommodate Cell Max between him and Orange Piccolo, who has 8,100).

By no means it’s perfect, but I think it’s worth mentioning Super Hero sets because this is where we are the most clueless about powerscalling (see my post in the previous page). Let’s see if the manga will get along with it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's interesting that we're all divided on this topic about 50-50, though, so it'll be fun to see who ends up being right. I don't mind eating crow if I have to, but it's really funny to see some people ITT acting like they know more about the scaling than the creators.

If it turns out Broly was the strongest all along (which is possible - maybe Toyotaro just avoided mentioning as to not spoil the next saga), then I think it's gonna be fun to see everyone look back and try to see how this works with the story. Toronbo has that "mortals can't surpass gods" loophole and Broly is stronger than Beerus, but it was pretty confusing as it was.

I'm just going to pipe in here and say non-commitedly that I think it's telling the Japanese chooses to use タフ (tafu "tough") for Moro, with the word's usual ambiguities (usually referring to durability/tenacity in Japanese, especially in genre fiction).

I don't know how Moro/Beerus/Broly/Jiren is all exactly meant to shake out, or if everyone was on the same page as one another, but I think it's at least safe to say that if the manga had wanted to commit hard either way, it would have used a different word.

Although it's also kind of moot at this point, since the Granolah arc makes it completely explicit that Goku/Vegeta, Granolah, Gas, and then Freeza are by turns the strongest mortals in the universe. It's really just Moro/Broly/Jiren (and that's only prior to Moro getting UI, which pretty solidly takes Jiren out of the running as well) that's left with any ambiguity, and Beerus' whole thing in relation to everyone.

Even the manga has been careful to not pit Beerus and UI Goku against each other (pairing him up with Whis after the Moro arc instead), so maybe that's telling too? It seems like even that version, which has certainly done the most to imply Beerus remains leagues above, is hedging its bets in certain ways.

All of the above is referring to Broly and Jiren as of their introductions, of course. It's fully possible, as mentioned above, that the manga will give us a Broly who has grown stronger in the interrim through his training, by the time he shows up on Beerus' world.

I remember Herms talked about this back when the chapter came out, and even pointed out how Goku uses the same term to describe Nappa after he got up unscathed from several blows. It made sense in the Saiyan Saga, but here it definitely sounds like Goku is calling Moro a good opponent, saying he should train instead of steal and all.

I remember people to say Moro's body feels like steel more than once, but when Goku calls him tough he's being crushed to death by a boulder. If Goku's not talking about raw power, then I think it's his magic that makes him such a troublesome opponent. I remember Goku also called Dabra's magic "tough", but I have no idea if he used the same term.

[ankokudaishogun]

to my knowledge, "タフ" is used basically exclusively to express "hardness" or "resistance".
So, "Moro as Goku's sturdiest opponent"

[Goku9001]

It's definitely a reference to power. Within the series as a whole, Goku expressed excitement battling powerful opponents; not meaty punching bags. It's no different than Goku wanting to battle Kid Buu and Broly again because they were powerful opponents.

[Koitsukai]

Even if it was about endurance alone, that would still make Moro tougher than FP Broly whose greatest hit was withstanding the beating of a life time.
With this interpretation, Moro73 would last more than Broly vs Gogeta Blue, right? and if Goku can put the toughest ever down in no time, then he sure can put the 2nd toughest down, as well, shouldn't he?

The only way, down this road, for Broly to still be excluded from the comparison is assuming Goku isn't taking into account whatever he experienced as Gogeta. But what is the point of having that particular line present if you're gonna have some people tacitly excluded from it?

[Mr Baggins]

to my knowledge, "タフ" is used basically exclusively to express "hardness" or "resistance".
So, "Moro as Goku's sturdiest opponent"

Yeah. In my own limited experience with Japanese, I've never heard that term being used to refer specifically to raw strength – it's more about resistance, durability or endurance – though maybe more reliable translators here can better speak to that.

It makes sense, too: Goku is interested in opponents who can offer him a challenge, whether that's primarily due to their power, fighting prowess, resilience, or more likely any combination of the three. There's no question that Moro was strong, but what made him particularly dangerous was his resilience; he was damn near impossible to put down and found ways to stay ahead of them every step of the way. They only needed fusion to deal with Broly, but Moro would have rendered it useless the moment he absorbed Vegeta's technique. It took the skin of their teeth to finally win.

So while I'm sure Moro's strength factored into Goku's enthusiasm to one day fight him again, it's likely that his specific statement about "toughness" just meant how insanely difficult he was to beat in general. No denying he wins out over Broly in that category.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku was referring to Moro's power level, because the most resistant and durable enemy Goku ever came across was obviously the Immortal Zamasu.

I don't know why some people online believe that Goku was referring to Moro's "tankiness", when Goku met a villain who was literally Immortal and couldn't be destroyed by any physical or ki attack (meanwhile Moro was indeed destroyed by a ki attack).

And so, Moro's power level > Broly's power level.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Or maybe it was his magic. That’s Moro’s main thing, and the most obvious alternative. Why is nobody considering that?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Or maybe it was his magic. That’s Moro’s main thing, and the most obvious alternative. Why is nobody considering that?

Dabura is a great example. His raw power was compared to Cell, but his magical abilities elevated his position in Goku's mind despite his power level still being comparable.

[SupremeKai25]

Or maybe it was his magic. That’s Moro’s main thing, and the most obvious alternative. Why is nobody considering that?

Super Shenron's magic that made Zamasu immortal and couldn't even be countered by Beerus >>>>> Moro's mortal magic that was sealed away by Grand Supreme Kai

Moro's magic doesn't grant him any particular endurance capability; even if it did, it wouldn't make him more durable than someone who was literally made Immortal by the most powerful wish-granting dragon in the verse.

Moro was never a tanking immovable bulwark the way Zamasu was.

Beyond that, in Dragon Ball, the final form of the new antagonist will always be stronger than the final form of the previous antagonist.

You don't put Final Form Frieza above Perfect Cell in power level.

You don't put Perfect Cell above Kid Buu in power level.

And so, it is contradictory to the structure of Dragon Ball to put LSSJ2 Broly above Moro-73 in power level.

[Cipher]

Re: All posts above: I’m not saying the simplest reading isn’t that Moro is the strongest (although, it’s also been pointed out that that weirdly precludes both Whis and Beerus anyway)—just that, if the series really wanted to establish that, it would have used a different word. For whatever reason, it feels like Toyotaro slightly hedged his bets or wanted to maintain some level of ambiguity.

What for, and whom regarding, I don’t know. It’s just not as clear cut as it could have been.

[LoganForkHands73]

Perhaps the line can be viewed in a different way. Maybe it's not referring to how strong Moro is relative to Goku's other opponents, but how "tough" of a battle it was for Goku, relative to how strong Goku had grown at that point? As in, "damn, that was the toughest game I've ever played!" There may have been levels that kicked your ass when you were less experienced, but when you reach a more advanced point, the previous challenges always seem lesser in comparison. Goku himself says in the 2008 OVA that Freeza was "in hindsight, not such a tough foe," and in Super Hero, Vegeta deduces that Jiren wasn't actually as far above them as he appeared at the time.

It makes some sense with that in mind. Moro was a tough motherfucker to put down, not just from his strength, but his sheer cunning and tenacity, as well as his unpredictable moveset. Worse, Goku and Vegeta couldn't risk Fusion or any of their other "easy" solutions against Moro; they just had to square up to him, mano-e-mano. Beerus wasn't getting involved unless Goku really cocked up, and Merus was only there to provide an opening, Han Solo style. Goku's Perfected Ultra Instinct made short work of Moro, but mere minutes earlier, the wizard made a makeshift gloryhole out of Goku's torso and left him bleeding on the floor. Of course, that's not getting into Moro's stolen Ultra Instinct and merging with the Earth itself, by which point Goku needed another Deus ex Machina to help finish the job: Uub.

Broly was definitely a challenge, but Goku and Vegeta resorted to Fusion fairly quickly and made a joke out of him. For the record, I think it's entirely possible -- even likely -- that Moro was legitimately stronger than Broly, but I always took Goku's line with a grain of salt.

As for Beerus, Goku has yet to fight him at anything close to full power. Beerus pushed Goku to his limits, but held back enough to allow Goku score plenty of good hits, and ultimately, he was reasonable enough to spare the Earth because Goku put on such a commendable performance.

[Goku9001]

I would agree that the statement, given that it was made under the context of wanting to fight Moro again after he grew stronger, was likely in reference to Moro being the toughest fight he ever had in general. That is still synonymous with Moro being the strongest opponent he's faced in general since Goku marveled at his strength before he admits how tough Moro was. That at least explains why the word "tough" was used since he may have wanted to encapsulate how tough Moro was in general and not just strictly refer to raw power.

This doesn't really change much to me. The argument was whether or not Moro was stronger than Broly. In Japan, "strong" can be used to describe different things. Even with a lower power, Moro should still be stronger than Broly in a general sense.

[Miracles]

Goku asked Moro to train so he could fight him again, not because he had the hardest body. I believe Tough is obviously along the lines of strength.

[Goku9001]

Goku asked Moro to train so he could fight him again, not because he had the hardest body. I believe Tough is obviously along the lines of strength.

MUI Goku would also have to be much stronger than Gogeta Blue to warrant Moro having the toughest body. After all, MUI Goku curbstomped him. That would be a contradiction to the idea that Broly is the strongest so the "hardest body" interpretation doesn't make sense if you want to claim that Broly is strictly the strongest.

I'm with you on this one. There has to be some implication of strength since Goku explicitly wants Moro to become stronger. I think saying that Moro was the toughest fight he's ever had doesn't really go against that notion.

[SupremeKai25]

The "toughest" fight Goku ever fought by all metrics was the one against Immortal Zamasu/Infinite Zamasu. This is an objective fact. This is the only fight where Goku, even with the help of his friends, lacked the ability to destroy his opponent in any way.

In both the Anime and the Manga, Zamasu had the protagonists completely cornered and backed against a wall, and would have won if not for the intervention of a third party. There was not a single thing Goku and co. could do to him and they pretty much accepted their fate. Meanwhile, Moro was defeated by the protagonists eventually.

The fact that Goku in the Moro arc is stronger than how he was 3 arcs prior doesn't make Moro a tougher opponent to beat for Goku than Zamasu. Just like, for Gohan, the fight vs. Obuni wasn't tougher than the fight vs. Super Perfect Cell (difference in power levels are irrelevant when talking about "difficult" fights for the protagonists). For Goku and co, Moro was much easier to beat than Zamasu.

Beyond that, if Goku was interested in training with people whose bodies are durable, he should have wanted Immortal Zamasu to train too, yet he never did. This is the ultimate confirmation that Goku is interested in power levels, not how durable the body is. Goku wants an equal to spar with, not a punching bag. He is someone who prioritizes strength over durability and he looks for this in his opponents too.

Goku asked Moro to train so he could fight him again, not because he had the hardest body. I believe Tough is obviously along the lines of strength.

MUI Goku would also have to be much stronger than Gogeta Blue to warrant Moro having the toughest body. After all, MUI Goku curbstomped him. That would be a contradiction to the idea that Broly is the strongest so the "hardest body" interpretation doesn't make sense if you want to claim that Broly is strictly the strongest.

There's no reason to claim Broly remains the strongest other than personal bias towards the Saiyans.

Even if, out of generosity and charity towards Broly, we wanted to ignore the Moro statement... we already know that Broly is left in the dust by Granolah, who wished to become the strongest mortal in the universe.

[Miracles]

Goku asked Moro to train so he could fight him again, not because he had the hardest body. I believe Tough is obviously along the lines of strength.

MUI Goku would also have to be much stronger than Gogeta Blue to warrant Moro having the toughest body. After all, MUI Goku curbstomped him. That would be a contradiction to the idea that Broly is the strongest so the "hardest body" interpretation doesn't make sense if you want to claim that Broly is strictly the strongest.

I'm with you on this one. There has to be some implication of strength since Goku explicitly wants Moro to become stronger. I think saying that Moro was the toughest fight he's ever had doesn't really go against that notion.

Dragonball in it's entirety is about Goku always fighting the next big bad and strongest guy. Vegeta was the current strongest in Saiyan Saga and Goku wanted to fight him again. Freeza was the next current strongest in Namek and he wanted him to go train so he could fight him again. Same with Majin Buu. That's why he was so interested in Uub. He did the same with Beerus in Bog, said Freeza would make a great rival in RoF, and the same with Broly in DBS: Broly movie. Goku is always about the current strongest foe.

Even in the Galactic Patrol arc this was mentioned in the conversation Goku had with Merus. Goku said the "strongest guys tend to be villains" so instead of ending their lives to stop them from doing evil again he rather get stronger and fight them again, possibly turning them to his side. We see this very same consistent plot point with Goku's talk with Moro 73 about letting him live so he could train to fight him again. In the whole context of Dragonball tough means overall power. Moro at that time was Goku's strongest opponent.

[LoganForkHands73]

I would agree that the statement, given that it was made under the context of wanting to fight Moro again after he grew stronger, was likely in reference to Moro being the toughest fight he ever had in general. That is still synonymous with Moro being the strongest opponent he's faced in general since Goku marveled at his strength before he admits how tough Moro was. That at least explains why the word "tough" was used since he may have wanted to encapsulate how tough Moro was in general and not just strictly refer to raw power.

This doesn't really change much to me. The argument was whether or not Moro was stronger than Broly. In Japan, "strong" can be used to describe different things. Even with a lower power, Moro should still be stronger than Broly in a general sense.

No biggie, since the conversation turned towards the precise phrasing of "tough" in that scene, I just wanted to give another way of looking at it, for fun. In the context of the manga, I can definitely believe that Moro, especially at his peak power, is stronger than Broly. In that brief dialogue with Merus, Goku talks about the encounter with Broly like an amusing, inconsequential anecdote and forgets about him for the rest of the arc. Honestly, I think the line spawns more confusion in comparison to Beerus, which I think is actually much easier to explain. But it seems that neither the fans nor the creators want Broly to be dethroned by any subsequent antagonists, at least in the movie continuity. Of course, it helps Broly's case that Moro may not even exist in that continuity. With less competition, he has a stronger claim to the title of top dog.

[QuakingStar]

Goku accounts Magic when talking about how tough or strong an opponent is. With Dabura he first said he was as strong as Cell, but once he learned Dabura had magic he thought Dabura was stronger. This means power level wise it's possible Moro wasn't on FP Broly's level, but with Magic added he surpassed him.

[Miracles]

I'd argue that both Prime Moro and UI Sign Goku passed FP Broly. Since the narration stated their battle put the universe at stake.