Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:36 am

I read Whis's ambiguous statement about the strongest possibly being Freeza or perhaps having emerged somewhere else as a nice wrap up to the theme of the Granolah arc. Where Minatio tells Granolah to not let his strongest title go to his head. Since he doesn't know who or what tomorrow will bring. Then Vegeta recaps what Minaito says to Granolah again, reminding him titles are literally a moment in time.Since Vegeta himself was growing stronger as he taps closer and closer to UE. The arc's message pretty much sums up Dragonball from start to finish.

Also, leaving the Granolah the Survivor arc, we know Freeza is the strongest when Whis makes his statement, since Freeza is top cat going into the prequel of Super Hero. This is also a possible reason why Goku/Vegeta had to hide Broly from Freeza on Beerus's planet. Then at the end of Super Hero Gohan beast becomes the strongest. Classic Dragonball where titles shift from one hand to another.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:25 am

Toyo: let's be really clear this time, have a dragon make them the strongest in the entire universe except for the gods, and have the 3 strongest fighting for their lives, I'll even spell this out in a interview, saving Freeza for last to beat them all, I'll keep him in a pocket dimension.

Fans: Broly beats all of them, tho

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:25 am Toyo: let's be really clear this time, have a dragon make them the strongest in the entire universe except for the gods, and have the 3 strongest fighting for their lives, I'll even spell this out in a interview, saving Freeza for last to beat them all, I'll keep him in a pocket dimension.

Fans: Broly beats all of them, tho
:lol: :lol:

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:28 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:25 am Toyo: let's be really clear this time, have a dragon make them the strongest in the entire universe except for the gods, and have the 3 strongest fighting for their lives, I'll even spell this out in a interview, saving Freeza for last to beat them all, I'll keep him in a pocket dimension.

Fans: Broly beats all of them, tho
I agree. This is pretty self-explanatory. Goku claims that Moro was the toughest battler he's ever encountered which would naturally include FPSSJ Broly because regardless of whether or not Broly can tap into that power, Goku still fought him. And then we are presented with Granolah being the strongest fighter ever encountered. Whis' closing dialogue also seems to suggest that the strongest in the universe is Frieza or someone else which is unclear to Goku and Vegeta. Broly would be an obvious choice since they've already experienced his power and it was clearly on the back of Goku's mind at the beginning of the Moro arc.

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:23 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:25 am Toyo: let's be really clear this time, have a dragon make them the strongest in the entire universe except for the gods, and have the 3 strongest fighting for their lives, I'll even spell this out in a interview, saving Freeza for last to beat them all, I'll keep him in a pocket dimension.

Fans: Broly beats all of them, tho
That's what makes it a little confusing. SH obviously wasn't taking the manga arcs into consideration so the last strongest opponents they fought were Broly and Jiren. Maybe by the end of this arc Toyotaro will clarify if he intended Moro, Granolah, Gas, and Black Freeza to be stronger than Broly. I'm open to either one but a direct comparison in the manga would help.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:47 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:25 am Toyo: let's be really clear this time, have a dragon make them the strongest in the entire universe except for the gods, and have the 3 strongest fighting for their lives, I'll even spell this out in a interview, saving Freeza for last to beat them all, I'll keep him in a pocket dimension.

Fans: Broly beats all of them, tho
Well, to be fair, that is the thing about Broly - both those things can be true and yet not necessarily contradictory.

Ordinarily, no, he's not in the running; he can't necessarily control his power right at the moment, let alone access all his power at will (the full extent of which we might not even have seen yet). Give him enough stimulation to provoke his endless escalation schtick and give him enough room to bring it all forth, though, and it's not exactly unreasonable to say he could.

If he can continue to tangle with certifiable 'Better than Gods of Destruction' people when he's revved up (albeit on the losing end) and Goku thinks he's better than Beerus (though this may be a prospective full-potential statement), while the Strongest from the Granolah arc are strictly stated to be a step down from the level embodied by the Gods, then it follows he's not out of contention among them; he just always needs a footnote that reads "under the right circumstances".

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:06 am

Magnificent Ponta's post perfectly explains what I was getting at. Nobody here was invoking match-ups.

Now, hypothetically, were Broly to accompany Goku and Vegeta to Planet Cereal and then fight Granolah first, there's no debating that Broly would probably lose. It's clear that only under very specific circumstances is he capable of actually reaching the level of strength used in the film – enough to apparently prompt a comparison to Beerus himself, and later, an unstoppable completed Cell Max that never came into fruition. That was a temporary state of power that wouldn't have been accounted for by a wish that clearly only considers the current state of affairs.

But also, I'm not sure if some of you truly understand that Broly hasn't even been properly introduced in the manga yet. He was only mentioned by name in a tiny bonus chapter that accompanied one of the volume releases, and there's literally a single page before the Moro arc that basically says "watch the movie" in lieu of actually describing what happened. It's not surprising that Toyotaro hasn't exactly gone out of his way to talk about him, or mention him in some offhand dialogue.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:34 am

On a general note, how do folks feel about the new way the series approaches power scaling? In the sense that we have like 10 different characters around the same battle power, with a legitimate claim to being the strongest for all of them. Whereas in the original series for better or for worse there was always a clear line between characters and character strength was always very obvious. Before Super, most strength debates would have to involve niche characters from different arcs as a point of comparison, whereas now we can't even agree how strong the main characters are in comparison to each other.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:55 am

Yuji wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:34 am On a general note, how do folks feel about the new way the series approaches power scaling? In the sense that we have like 10 different characters around the same battle power, with a legitimate claim to being the strongest for all of them. Whereas in the original series for better or for worse there was always a clear line between characters and character strength was always very obvious. Before Super, most strength debates would have to involve niche characters from different arcs as a point of comparison, whereas now we can't even agree how strong the main characters are in comparison to each other.
I like it when there are multiple characters who sit around the same levels in a given form, particularly how many opponents are as strong as SSB, making fights between such characters more about personality and personal skill.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:57 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:47 am while the Strongest from the Granolah arc are strictly stated to be a step down from the level embodied by the Gods
As I said before on the Re-Read thread, I find this rule to be confusing. Are Goku and Vegeta not on the level of the gods? Even as SSJBs they were compared to gods, and in their Ultra forms they’re outright stronger than Jiren, a UI-level opponent.

Is Granolah not stronger than any Kaioshin or Kaio out there? I have seen suggestions that Granolah would have fallen to the Kai Kai Matoru, but by this logic he could also be stronger than Beerus (he isn’t, I know) while being vulnerable to Hakai or Beerus’ mysterious sealing technique.
Yuji wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:34 am On a general note, how do folks feel about the new way the series approaches power scaling? In the sense that we have like 10 different characters around the same battle power, with a legitimate claim to being the strongest for all of them. Whereas in the original series for better or for worse there was always a clear line between characters and character strength was always very obvious. Before Super, most strength debates would have to involve niche characters from different arcs as a point of comparison, whereas now we can't even agree how strong the main characters are in comparison to each other.
It makes for interesting discussions here, but when I read the story it’s just plain confusing. Focusing more on techniques to do what some call a “lateral power scale” is something I’d like to see, but it actually feels like Toriyama and Toyotaro are clashing here.

Toriyama has said he set out for Gohan to be the strongest, but seeing how the manga tries to be it’s own thing, I think Gohan will sadly get brushed off the scale as a footnote by the next saga.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:10 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:57 pm but it actually feels like Toriyama and Toyotaro are clashing here.
If there's any "clashing", it's not deliberate. All of the manga's stories and their respective ideas are a collaborative process between Toyotaro, Toriyama, and Victory Uchida (who is much more than just an editor, if recent interviews didn't make that patently clear). The manga itself is clearly written to be a companion to the movies, since it encourages the audience to watch Broly and the current arc is explicitly a prequel tie-in for Super Hero.

(Side note: Super Hero started production before the Moro arc was even conceived, which would partly explain why it doesn't reference more recent events in the series. I get why that would be a bit confusing for some.)

If there are any inconsistencies here, they would be the result of continuity errors rather than some weird suggestion that Shueisha intended them to be separate universes or whatever. It's unfortunately a messy situation when you're writing film scripts that take place further in the future than the serialized arcs, but it comes with the territory.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:37 pm

the point of Broly is not just his raw power-level, but that his fighting skill is still very low, even though he's capable of improving at a very fast rate.

it's perfectly possible that his raw power level is greater than even Beerus, but the difference in skill keeps Beerus still stronger.

This couples well with Vegeta claiming Jiren's "actual strength" wasn't "much" greater than his and Goku's, but with his skill he was able to defeat even his GoD.
Which kinda fits with the way Toppo described it: "as far as martial ability goes, Jiren is even stronger than Belmod".
Which, given what we know now, implies Jiren's "raw" power wasn't greater than Belmod's, but couple with his skill he was unmatchable even by the GoD.

Garnollah and Gas most likely got a mix of "raw" power and "future skill" that made them stronger than anybody in the universe this side of Beerus... at the time of the wish.

it's perfectly possible that Broly still had the greatest raw power in the universe, even greater than Beerus: but G&G's "future skill" still made them stronger than him.

Sufficiently greater skill making one able to defeat much "raw power" stronger enemies has been a thing for a while, after all.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:58 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:37 pm Sufficiently greater skill making one able to defeat much "raw power" stronger enemies has been a thing for a while, after all.
More than that, this is the entire concept behind martial arts. Like, it's the whole point.

And Dragon Ball is nothing if not a martial arts series. The flying and ki blasts and power scaling are mere accessories to that.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:32 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:10 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:57 pm but it actually feels like Toriyama and Toyotaro are clashing here.
If there's any "clashing", it's not deliberate. All of the manga's stories and their respective ideas are a collaborative process between Toyotaro, Toriyama, and Victory Uchida (who is much more than just an editor, if recent interviews didn't make that patently clear). The manga itself is clearly written to be a companion to the movies, since it encourages the audience to watch Broly and the current arc is explicitly a prequel tie-in for Super Hero.

(Side note: Super Hero started production before the Moro arc was even conceived, which would partly explain why it doesn't reference more recent events in the series. I get why that would be a bit confusing for some.)

If there are any inconsistencies here, they would be the result of continuity errors rather than some weird suggestion that Shueisha intended them to be separate universes or whatever. It's unfortunately a messy situation when you're writing film scripts that take place further in the future than the serialized arcs, but it comes with the territory.
Exactly, AT started working on the script of Super Hero during the production of Broly and sees it as a direct sequel. I’m sure someone in the Dragon Ball Room helped keep everything smooth between both stories, and the manga actually sort of makes way for the movie. The inconsistencies are really just on the details, which is to be expected since Toriyama was never a details guy.

They’re the same continuity, but the movies try to be self contained while the manga advances the story. Super Hero’s lengthy production must have been a factor on why the manga never introduced Broly as well: It would still have to circle back to him being completely inexperienced to make room for the movie, so might as well keep him away until the time is right.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:08 pm

Considering Toriyama came out himself and said Broly would get mopped by a completed Cell Max, he is not a benchmark. Revealing that he isn't afraid to pack up the car and drive off without him. Toyotaro explicitly did this in the manga [Freeza is the strongest]. Heck Gohan is the current strongest in Super Hero the movie. For now, Broly has just become "one of the boys," trying to improve and will ultimately fall behind Goku and Vegeta's destined universal best titles.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:35 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:57 pm As I said before on the Re-Read thread, I find this rule to be confusing. Are Goku and Vegeta not on the level of the gods? Even as SSJBs they were compared to gods, and in their Ultra forms they’re outright stronger than Jiren, a UI-level opponent.

Is Granolah not stronger than any Kaioshin or Kaio out there? I have seen suggestions that Granolah would have fallen to the Kai Kai Matoru, but by this logic he could also be stronger than Beerus (he isn’t, I know) while being vulnerable to Hakai or Beerus’ mysterious sealing technique.
The gods the dragon was talking about were Beerus and Whis, who are far superior to the gods of destruction with which Goku and Vegeta were compared in their SSGSS forms. So, it’s safe to say Granolah is at least stronger than some gods of destruction although he can’t beat all of them.

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:33 am

Yuji wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:34 amOn a general note, how do folks feel about the new way the series approaches power scaling? In the sense that we have like 10 different characters around the same battle power, with a legitimate claim to being the strongest for all of them. Whereas in the original series for better or for worse there was always a clear line between characters and character strength was always very obvious. Before Super, most strength debates would have to involve niche characters from different arcs as a point of comparison, whereas now we can't even agree how strong the main characters are in comparison to each other.
I think it shows the characters are so astronomically powerful that there's less room to grow each arc compared to before. Comparisons to a GoD have been used since the ToP or earlier if we include Blue Vegetto. Now they're stronger than some GoDs and working their way up to Beerus. Maybe one day Toriyama gives an updated version of the BoG scale to get an idea where he ranks his characters.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:06 pm

How close was SSJBE Vegeta to Moro and UI Sign Goku, really? Before Spirit Fission kicked in Vegeta looked like a bit of challenge to Moro, that first punch was pretty intense. Something like SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza, Moro would win swiftly but he’d have to use full power.

Was Vegeta that strong or was Moro just toying with Vegeta?

I’m asking this because UI is absurdly strong, it can easily be of thousands times stronger than PSSJB going by the Broly movie, while SSJBE is often considered to just be 20x Blue.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
picc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:15 pm

Who are the 10 characters with a claim to being strongest? Aside from that Freeza is clearly the strongest, if you wanted to ignore that and be as liberal as possible you could say any of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Broly, or Gohan?

Thats six. Who are the other four?
Planet Namek Bred

User avatar
picc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:22 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:06 pm How close was SSJBE Vegeta to Moro and UI Sign Goku, really? Before Spirit Fission kicked in Vegeta looked like a bit of challenge to Moro, that first punch was pretty intense. Something like SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza, Moro would win swiftly but he’d have to use full power.

Was Vegeta that strong or was Moro just toying with Vegeta?

I’m asking this because UI is absurdly strong, it can easily be of thousands times stronger than PSSJB going by the Broly movie, while SSJBE is often considered to just be 20x Blue.
Not enough to be a serious challenge, as its clear Moro wasnt taking him seriously at first. He said as much in plain words, and didnt put much effort into fighting back until he got bored.

Without FSF Moro would have ended him pretty quickly. Impossible to put %’s to anything at this stage of DB but he was having less effect on Moro than he did on Recoome in the Namek saga, for instance.
Planet Namek Bred

Post Reply